59 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

So I just got out of a match in which I was using a Scorch with 4 ATM12s and 2 HMLs on Mining Collective. I got 780 damage and 3 KMDD, not too bad, but at one point in the game I was on the ramp, up top was a Warhammer, Kodiak, and a Mad Cat MKII sitting back on their ramp. I was peeking up over the edge and hammering people in my optimal range for 144 damage, quickly killed a Warhammer and nearly ripped the Kodiak in half when my team had a guy on comms who said to push and then started blocking my mech.

I wasn't going to run into min range a Mad Cat MK2 and a very angry KDK-3 with only 2 HMLs to protect me of course, so I refused to push up the ramp, turned the whole mech around, and went around the side of theta to get away from the team mates and let them push, went on to kill the Kodiak from behind, open up a couple flanking enemies who got killed by an ally firing a couple UAC10s at the red CT, then finished up the game, peppering some stragglers.


I'd just like to remind people that pushing into facehugging range isn't the best strategy for many different mechs and that trading at range is often a much more viable option (similar to the last time 10 dead teammates asked me and my partner [2 man team] to charge at an LRM boat catapult in the open frozen ocean of Frozen city with no cover even though both me and my ally were open with red CT and had 2 ERPPCs each. We ignored them for obvious reasons and continued to trade, dodging into cover before the lrms hit and taking the win).

People often believe assaults to be the designated pushers, but its time to change up the perception. The IS Dragon has similar levels of armor to my Marauder IIC, IS heavies should push up infront of the team, as they often have shorter ranged weapons, much better twist speeds, and similar levels of armor but don't carry the same level of pure firepower as a Clan assault mech.

Let the Clanners in big heavy mechs sit back and support while the ultra armored IS builds move on up and brawl. You'll win more matches if everyone plays to their strengths together rather than thinking all assaults are tanks like the Atlas, its just not 2012 anymore.



TLDR: Don't block allies who are making trades and try to force them to push, they likely are staying at mid range because its their optimal range and moving up close makes them deadweight, just push past them and let them support you, or wait for them to clear the area they are working on.

Edited by Dakota1000, 20 July 2017 - 09:29 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

MadIIC is a brawl dog by design, and assaults by design have the most armor to share, if you are the last one left alive and have taken no damage, it isn't because you are great and your team sucks, it is because you suck, and are not playing with your team (you as in everyone, me too).

But that being said, some of the worst "assaults must push" mentality offenders tend to be in pushable brawling heavy mechs themselves, which is bunk, if the roles we at supposed to perform were adhered to, you would get heavies leading pushes just as often, but hey I guess if you don't want to get shot often and always be able to blame others for a loss, then go a heavy, because their lack of role responsibility leads them to be the worst backseat drivers.

Plus people are just looking for someone to blame on a loss, lights and assaults are easy targets.

Then again if you are boating LRMs in a MadIIC, perhaps you should consider a change.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 20 July 2017 - 11:58 PM.

[visionGT4]

"I want IS to tank for me coz clan p2w privilege"

what a duhick

Edited by visionGT4, 20 July 2017 - 09:44 PM.

[Abisha]

Blame blocking to Pgi for not having a backview option.
This should have exist 2 years ago already a simple button to see behind you

and no Assaults are not designed for tanking some medium size mechs even have better armor.

Edited by Abisha, 20 July 2017 - 09:50 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Abisha, on 20 July 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

and no Assaults are not designed for tanking some medium size mechs even have better armor.

Some have bells too, but in a general sense they have the most armor and structure to share in a push, making them the tankiest, but how it plays out is faster moving brawlers get hit less often (vs uninitiated targets) or can twist more damage while moving etc.

Those kinds of guys tank by not getting hit or getting hit much less in critical locations, which can in practice mean they "tank" damage a lot longer, by receiving less of it overall, but twisting won't keep you alive forever, and shooting through an assaults arms, then torso, then dealing with its CT, is a lot of armor and accurate shooting to force opponents to make.

So I agree a bit, but at the same time, not... Weird.

Or in other words, facehugging assaults are not meant for brawling, you have to apply the same body saving tactics you do on a light, just slower.

That is certainly not me agreeing with the mentality of let the IS mechs go and brawl while I sit back in my clanmech, but there are aspects to the OP that are agreeable.

Some assaults seem designed for brawling, like the MadIIC, with 80kph max speed and those amazing tanking torsos, and low slung arms, it feels like that is its job. Deathball with the fast moving heavies.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 20 July 2017 - 10:03 PM.

[Darky101]

If there was an option to see friendly loadouts these things could be avoided ad might result in much better strategies due to imediately seeing the teams strengths.
You cant always know imediately whos a brawler and whos a sniper.

Edited by Darky101, 20 July 2017 - 09:58 PM.

[Khobai]

Operation Innerspheres Up Front is a go.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 20 July 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

Operation Innerspheres Up Front is a go.

Good luck out there IS warriors!

We will also be strapping smaller IS mechs to larger clan ones, for added protection.

This will also be known as Operation; "Get behind the inner sphere mechs", and/or "Ye olde meatshield".

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 20 July 2017 - 10:09 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

visionGT4, on 20 July 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

"I want IS to tank for me coz clan p2w privilege"

what a duhick

Its mostly a generalization, but really, why should the long range mechs with weapons that generally have longer range, longer cooldowns, and more damage per shot but longer durations and less armor/structure be tanking just like the mechs that are shorter range, have lower durations, shorter cooldowns, and way more armor and structure?


I play a lot of RTS games, so I always play games like this tactically, its a micro error when you put your glass cannon infront of or even beside your tank. Why waste a mech that can deal very high damage by sending it into a position in which it cannot reach its potential?

Shifty McSwift, on 20 July 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

MadIIC is a brawl dog by design, and assaults by design have the most armor to share, if you are the last one left alive and have taken no damage, it isn't because you are great and your team sucks, it is because you suck, and are not playing with your team.

But that being said, some of the worst "assaults must push" mentality offenders tend to be in pushable brawling large mechs themselves, which is bunk, if the roles we at supposed to perform were adhered to, you would get larges leading pushes just as often, but hey I guess if you don't want to get shot often and always be able to blame others for a loss, then go a large, because their lack of role responsibility leads them to be the worst backseat drivers.

Plus people are just looking for someone to blame on a loss, lights and assaults are easy targets.

Then again if you are boating LRMs in a MadIIC, perhaps you should consider a change.

ATMs are what I was using, not LRMs. I sit up close at 200-270m from the target and get my damage in, as I said, I put out 780 with multiple KMDD on mining collective of all places. I'm just saying that people get pretty crazy on the "YOU MUST PUSH" mentality, people don't need to facehug to brawl, and mechs using PPCs, ATMs, RLs, or LRMs are useless if they attempt to facehug.

I am fine with taking damage, just not taking pointless damage, that's how you lose a game. Its like standing out of cover while you reload, its pointless to rush in at an enemy to get even closer to them and be shot up by their guns when you are already in a range close enough to be dealing your full damage. Save armor for surprise attacks, countering enemy pushes, and increasing the amount of times you can poke before your armor has worn out, hillsides have much more than you do.

Everyone has armor to share, but many people use up much more than their fair share and expect others to carry the weight. Why should I have to die so that some other teammate doesn't? Its especially bad when a T1 pilot in an assault mech dies so that someone else in a lighter mech can live, the impact it has on total team DPS is immense. Pilots should know they are valuable assets to their team and try to put out as much damage as they can for as little in return as possible.

[Stf Sgt Marblez]

With most inner sphere pilots strapping those LFE's to their mechs, clanners better be pulling their weight on the battle field, they brought the tanking we bring the damage.

#teamworkmakeithappen

[Y E O N N E]

visionGT4, on 20 July 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

"I want IS to tank for me coz clan p2w privilege"

what a duhick

Well, he's not wrong. IS have a lot of extra hit-points to share and Clan 'Mechs generally make better gun bags, so it makes sense to have each be put in their strongest, most useful positions. And it's not like IS 'Mechs are just sitting there to sponge damage, either, they are doing plenty of shooting and, eventually, will get their turn at the back as they have to rotate the fresher Clan 'Mechs forward over the match progression.

[FireStoat]

Dragon 1C is in a pretty good spot right now. With a 280 LFE, Endo, and Light Ferro, you can stuff an LBX 10, 4 medium pulse, and an MRM 10 on the thing and have a party. I still need more practice with it and I will agree that the firepower feels underwhelming stacked against clan mechs I'm used to, but the agility of the thing and durability is unreal. It's a superb soldier mech for dueling something down or assisting in a team fight once the main event is going.

I guess in theory you could make it a better Long ranged mech as it does have the mobility to dart to prime areas to fire - I'll have to experiment more.

Edit - with the last event and the current rash of new/old players due to the new tech, we have an enormous amount of friendly fire going on. It's silly and stupid how often it happens. If you're wondering why Assault mechs are reluctant to push, it's because demented chimpanzees are burning through their shoulders with zero(0) shooting skill.

Edited by FireStoat, 20 July 2017 - 10:54 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, he's not wrong. IS have a lot of extra hit-points to share and Clan 'Mechs generally make better gun bags, so it makes sense to have each be put in their strongest, most useful positions.

theyre also inferior genetic specimens and as such expendable.

[nitra]

Great just what we need ATMs now an excuse for not pushing ...

Comms: PUSH !!

Player a flak : I cant my weapons are only effective at x range ..

Player b flack: mine to, i can only shoot at things this far away ...

player c flack: yep same here i only have effective range of x so im going to sit right here.

Comms: we are getting dusted my freinds !!

player a flak: then take cover dumb @ss ill get my 3 kills while the rest of you die protecting my effective range!!!

player b flak: yeah ill get a couple kills too if the enemy walks by my position

player c flak: hey "a" can i come to your position and shoot a couple too no one is near my position .

Comms: screw this! where is the auto destruct button.

Edited by nitra, 20 July 2017 - 11:02 PM.

[OrmsbyGore]

Abisha, on 20 July 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

and no Assaults are not designed for tanking some medium size mechs even have better armor.

OK, I'll bite, which mediums have more armor than assaults?

[OrmsbyGore]

Dakota1000, on 20 July 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

Its mostly a generalization, but really, why should the long range mechs with weapons that generally have longer range, longer cooldowns, and more damage per shot but longer durations and less armor/structure be tanking just like the mechs that are shorter range, have lower durations, shorter cooldowns, and way more armor and structure?


I play a lot of RTS games, so I always play games like this tactically, its a micro error when you put your glass cannon infront of or even beside your tank. Why waste a mech that can deal very high damage by sending it into a position in which it cannot reach its potential?



ATMs are what I was using, not LRMs. I sit up close at 200-270m from the target and get my damage in, as I said, I put out 780 with multiple KMDD on mining collective of all places. I'm just saying that people get pretty crazy on the "YOU MUST PUSH" mentality, people don't need to facehug to brawl, and mechs using PPCs, ATMs, RLs, or LRMs are useless if they attempt to facehug.

I am fine with taking damage, just not taking pointless damage, that's how you lose a game. Its like standing out of cover while you reload, its pointless to rush in at an enemy to get even closer to them and be shot up by their guns when you are already in a range close enough to be dealing your full damage. Save armor for surprise attacks, countering enemy pushes, and increasing the amount of times you can poke before your armor has worn out, hillsides have much more than you do.

Everyone has armor to share, but many people use up much more than their fair share and expect others to carry the weight. Why should I have to die so that some other teammate doesn't? Its especially bad when a T1 pilot in an assault mech dies so that someone else in a lighter mech can live, the impact it has on total team DPS is immense. Pilots should know they are valuable assets to their team and try to put out as much damage as they can for as little in return as possible.

You make a great point in (kinda) distinguishing between a push and a suicide run; however, ask yourself: how fun would a match be for you if your 11 teammates decided to turn around and run into the corner of the map from the enemy starting position while you were getting into cover and choosing a sniping position, essentially leaving you in the front lines while the enemy team advances on your position? That is basically what you are doing when you hang back in an assault

[visionGT4]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 July 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

Well, he's not wrong. IS have a lot of extra hit-points to share and Clan 'Mechs generally make better gun bags, so it makes sense to have each be put in their strongest, most useful positions. And it's not like IS 'Mechs are just sitting there to sponge damage, either, they are doing plenty of shooting and, eventually, will get their turn at the back as they have to rotate the fresher Clan 'Mechs forward over the match progression.

I do understand the intent of his selfishly presented point. My gripe is that any encouragement for people to hide at the back and let others do the hard work for them is detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game. And come on, rotation? I *seriously* doubt that was even factored into this thought process.

maybe if it was articulated similar to this:

"IS heavies go first to absorb the initial exchange, then the support (hiders) will push through to help ensure the first echelon remains combat viable"

all I read was - tank for me cos I bought a scorch


edit: spelling

Edited by visionGT4, 20 July 2017 - 11:33 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Well, I for one agree all Assaults are simply not "tanks"..

I've been saying this a long time.. People have to abandon the weight class perceptions of the past.. Assaults are not all front-line tanks and pushers, lights are not all just scouts, and as long as a light can be the most devastating threat to an assault, this will remain so.

Instead, define mechs according to loadouts.. Group them into Scouts, Brawlers, Snipers and Support.

By this definition, a LRM Catapult is support, but a SRM Catapult is a brawler..

And NO, having an Assault mech does not mean you "have to" make it a brawler, cose' it has lots of armor.. That large amount of armor just means it will preform it's role longer..

Just play to your mech's strengths and play as a team.. regardless of team composition, team play is always OP..

visionGT4, on 20 July 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

all I read was - tank for me cos I bought a scorch

See, that's exactly the perfect example of "bad team play".. because "tank for me" is simply the other side of the coin. Another side is "support me".

Not everyone should tank, not everyone should support.. Both is needed. So if somebody is asking you to "tank for them" they are not asking you to die while they live. They are not automatically selfish. They are asking you to do your job while they are doing theirs..

Here's an example of this situation in D&D..

A good party in D&D consists of a Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue. (aka. Brawler, Sniper, Support, and Scout)..

So If your Wizard is reluctant to facetank an ogre, can you blame him? Is he not much more useful in the back, doing what he does best? Is the fighter to be offended when the wizard tells him to tank?

Anyone who's ever played D&D can tell you - 4 melee fighters in a party of 4 is simply bad party composition.. You need the wizard, the cleric, and the rogue..

You guys need to understand that MWO is a TEAM ORIENTED GAME.. and a Team has roles.. not everybody should be the tank.. somebody should bring the Scorch..

P.S.

Guys, please, drop the perception that anyone who's not facetanking and is in the back is "hiding".. That's just a childish generalization and a selfish "holier than thou" way of looking at things..

We're not hiding. We are using tactics and bringing our mech's strengths to bear. If I'm a LRM boat, no, I will not go into the open and face tank. And neither should the brawler on most occasions. "Trading armor" is a bad strategy.. Taking the enemy's armor while giving them none of your own is far better.

Edited by Vellron2005, 20 July 2017 - 11:43 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

visionGT4, on 20 July 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

I do understand the intent of his selfishly presented point. My gripe is that any encouragement for people to hide at the back and let others do the hard work for them is detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game. And come on, rotation? I *seriously* doubt that was even factored into this thought process.

maybe if it was articulated similar to this:

"IS heavies go first to take absorb the initial exchange, then the support (hiders) will push through to help ensure the first echelon remains combat viable"

all I read was - tank for me cos I bought a scorch

I mean, it could be that the context spurring this gripe was an IS player trying to get into the brawl and drag everybody in with him. I don't know. But, really, the generalizations about IS and Clan 'Mech traits was tangential to his point, which is that Assaults aren't always the tanks. The quip at the end was just a pinch of salt.

[Wil McCullough]

Vellron2005, on 20 July 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

Well, I for one agree all Assaults are simply not "tanks"..

I've been saying this a long time.. People have to abandon the weight class perceptions of the past.. Assaults are not all front-line tanks and pushers, lights are not all just scouts, and as long as a light can be the most devastating threat to an assault, this will remain so.

Instead, define mechs according to loadouts.. Group them into Scouts, Brawlers, Snipers and Support.

By this definition, a LRM Catapult is support, but a SRM Catapult is a brawler..

And NO, having an Assault mech does not mean you "have to" make it a brawler, cose' it has lots of armor.. That large amount of armor just means it will preform it's role longer..

Just play to your mech's strengths and play as a team.. regardless of team composition, team play is always OP..

in qp, it's not going to work because of how big a mixed bag of mechs you can end up with. not many pilots will put themselves (and their cbills) on the line to protect a random teammate.

i mean, he's not going to return the favor. hell, you'll probably never see him ever again.

would i ablate armor for a teammate? yes. i would, if it meant giving the team a higher chance of winning. understandably, not many other pilots would though. saying "i brought the guns, you brought the armor, go sit there and be a punching bag" doesn't sound like a lot of fun to the punching bag.