158 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Athom83, on 06 August 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

But there are less good players and a higher concentration of potatoes, so despite the less drag you still have to carry harder. Even potatoes can be useful as meatshields.

That's just a lie. MM will actually improve since it will require less players to choose to form a match, so players will be more likely to fight within their own tier. Which means potatoes will be more likely to fight potatoes, and good players will most likely fight good players. Even if MM quality stays the same and half the team still sucks, carrying 4 potatoes in 8v8 is easier than carrying 6 potatoes in 12v12.

Yellonet, on 06 August 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Another plus of 8 vs 8 that I think would happen is that larger parts of the maps would get used.
Yes, it sounds strange but hang on, as it is now it can often be difficult to traverse a map without getting spotted by enemies, and then you might get pinned so you can't get to where you wanted to go, this happens alot because with 12 players it's easier to know where the enemies are and thus easier to restrict their movement. With 8 players in each team there would be more open space and therefore easier to move around and change positions without being instantly detected, hence more of the maps would be used resulting in more interesting matches.

Exactly. With only two drop zones, you can link up much faster and have more freedom to maneuver.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 August 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[Liveish]

CW - 12
Group QP 8
Solo QP 12

[Brain Cancer]

live1991, on 06 August 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

CW - 12
Group QP 8
Solo QP 12

I'd do it the other way around. Solo QP 8, Group QP 12. That means more groups can effectively participate in group play, even bigger ones.

[Liveish]

Brain Cancer, on 06 August 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

I'd do it the other way around. Solo QP 8, Group QP 12. That means more groups can effectively participate in group play, even bigger ones.

Most groups want 8v8 in QP, more ppl does not mean better

[Yellonet]

live1991, on 07 August 2017 - 12:49 AM, said:

more ppl does not mean better

This is certainly true, especially for SP QP. So 8 vs 8 in that mode would be the most important.



Also, don't use photobucket.

[Reza Malin]

Its a yes from me

Athom83, on 23 July 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

This is like the 3rd or 4th time I've seen this almost exact topic (with a link to a poll and everything). Couldn't this be considered spam?

People can make threads of topics other people have made, you know that right?

Its not illegal. No one is expected to sift through every forum topic ever posted to check and make sure there's is not similar.

Different people have different ways of expressing their opinon.

[Ssamout]

Davegt27, on 22 July 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

maybe wait a bit to see how 8v8 comp works out

8vs8 never went away and its been working just fine through all these years.

[El Bandito]

Sooner or later PGI has to do something about all the MM issues and performance issues. I prefer it to be sooner.

[Weeny Machine]

Nay. I enjoy 12 vs 12.

Also there are issues like...
1. some maps are too huge for 8 vs 8
2. a DC screws you even more
3. matches could be shorter

Edited by Bush Hopper, 09 August 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[mogs01gt]

The game was better with 8v8.

[Mystere]

mogs01gt, on 09 August 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

The game was better with 8v8.

Opinion, not fact.

I personally prefer 12 vs. 12.

But, fights involving lore-friendly Clan and IS formations would be awesome.

[El Bandito]

Bush Hopper, on 09 August 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Nay. I enjoy 12 vs 12.

Also there are issues like...
1. some maps are too huge for 8 vs 8
2. a DC screws you even more
3. matches could be shorter

1. I'd argue that more of those maps will be used in 8v8, compared to 12v12, since splitting off won't become as dangerous.

2. You will have less chance of DCed teammates. And you are less at the mercy of pug lottery compared to 12v12, since you personal skill contributes more in 8v8.

3. Matches will not be shorter. I was there during the worst of weapon balancing in Beta (SRM boats 2-shotting Atlas, and no Ghost Heat on any weapons), and matches were not shorter than current 12v12. Just check all my old MWO videos.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 August 2017 - 01:32 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

I'm not really sure what to think here.

I don't think smaller matches will actually reduce deathballing, since the only reason for people to spread out presently is that map choke points clog with more than 3-4 people in them.

I am, however, a proponent of less mechs in matches. Focus fire is one of this game's biggest demons and it's the biggest cause of static gameplay. People won't move when they run good odds of getting shot up by 4 or 5 mechs if they expose themselves. Less mechs means less odds that any given time you turn a corner there isn't a full lance waiting to deliver an alpha. It might actually mean a mech can take point on a push without it being a death sentence.

I firmly believe that the maps we have weren't intended for so many mechs, at least when the objectives are not spaced out to force teams to split up. Pile ups are common where mechs are packed so closely to the available cover that it's difficult to move.

I don't believe 8v8 would actually lead to more balanced match outcomes. Maybe it would allow the MM to do better, but a smaller team has much more difficulty recovering from a deficit when the terrain isn't going to restrict who is shooting who any more than it does now. I do think it would make objective-based modes better though, since it would be much easier for individual mechs to move around the map.

Overall I think I'd choose going back to 8v8. I don't find the notion of smaller teams making it easier for one person to carry appealing, because that's not the point. I honestly just think the matches are too crowded.

[Yellonet]

To those of you that say that in 8 vs 8 it would be more difficult to come back after losing a player; respectfully, I think you're wrong.

From a pure arithmetical standpoint your are of course correct, each player is a larger part of the whole.
But it would only apply fully in a situation where every player is standing on a line and shooting at each other akin to 17th century combat.

In practice I think the difference in team strength from losing a player would be equal, or perhaps even less than in 12 vs 12 matches because of the greater ability to stay away and behind cover from your opponent, 50% enemy eyes and guns to stay away from on the same maps should make quite a difference.

As it is now, most of the time you can't stay in a "good" position for long because you'll get flanked or backstabbed fast as you are often discovered quickly, with less players there's a greater chance that you can keep a good position for longer.

With fewer players there's more room to move around the map uncontested, so when your team loses a player or two you will still have better chance to escape and regroup when getting away from 8 players instead of 12, then you can try to get local superiority and evening out the numbers.

But deathball you say; ah, yes, IMO the deathballs we have now often relies on pure momentum and number of eyes and guns, as there are so many players it's very likely that a few of them will target the same enemy even without direction from a caller, thus we get a sort of automatic focus fire. With fewer players to deathball, there would be fewer eyes to detect the enemy and fewer guns to shoot at them and fewer mechs to spread incoming damage on as well. While deathballing would still be powerful it shouldn't be AS powerful given that; ability to detect the enemy, the amount of firepower, and also the momentum of the ball itself would be decreased.

When fazed with a current deathball it's very easy to get stressed and just panic from the sheer number of targets, you may well just end up shooting the first enemy you see and then die a few seconds later by focus fire. With only 8 enemies total, each player would in most cases be presented with fewer targets in any given situation, and thus would have a greater chance to survive and to choose the right target to shoot.
What do I mean with the momentum of the ball, well that would be a function of how large a part of the team is in the ball, today the ball gives safety in numbers, but with a smaller ball, losing a few mechs would make a bigger difference than today, and thus the momentum would decrease making players hesitate which usually spells doom.

Well, all in all I think it would be a much more interesting game in 8 vs 8, for a multitude of reasons.

Edited by Yellonet, 13 August 2017 - 01:56 PM.

[SOL Ranger]

Nay. As I see it 8v8 will only create more issues, not less, especially with mech balance and cheese becoming ever more obvious issues and sources of frustration.

Taking unwarranted risks for what I see are questionable pride driven motives with more or less the only game mode that actually works for the majority of people in the game and keeps it running is probably not a good idea to begin with.

Anything below 12v12 belongs in strictly competitive circles or clearly defined separate arena oriented contexts. Focus on making those competitive game modes more appealing and interesting instead trying to make casual game modes more competitive and polarised.

Notably the reason why people avoid the competitive scene and why it is so unpopular is because it is so polarised and unforgiving, as in not fun. 8v8 brings in exactly that kind of unforgiving rigid seriousness to the game that effectively limits more and more fun aspects of the game that are otherwise available in 12v12 more freely.

I do not subscribe to the notion that every game mode has to be a playground for personal prestige, keep that in the competitive circles as mentioned, there is plenty of room to keep the fun aspects of MWO alive, as in stompy shooty robots and not going beyond that aspect of it.

Edited by SOL Ranger, 13 August 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[Bigbacon]

look at this way.

8v8 most of you would not want me on your team or others. Because unless people are playing meta builds we put you at a disadvantage from the get go.

[Brain Cancer]

12v12 makes it far easier to roll a team than 8v8, because it doesn't take more than a 3v1 or so to quickly obliterate an exposed target. Nom a few opponents, and the snowball is rapidly rolling downhill as that quick-kill matchup happens faster and faster until lo and behold, you've just burned out the entire enemy team.

8v8, you've got fewer chances to pull that quick kill, and fewer chances to throw a lance around the enemy to attempt it. Instead, it's more likely 1-2 rather then 3-4...and people live longer in a 1v2 than a 1v3 or 1v4. They have a better chance to survive that first rude surprise and keep fighting, or get rescued by their team.

That it would also decrease the odds of putting a T4-5 ringer into my teams also appeals. 8v8 is part of a fix that has to actually make PSR matter, or else it's just going to be a temporary fix. Either way, it's a needed one given the lower population.

[El Bandito]

Bigbacon, on 13 August 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

look at this way.
8v8 most of you would not want me on your team or others. Because unless people are playing meta builds we put you at a disadvantage from the get go.

Look at this way. With 8v8 you will match up with players of your level more than 12v12.

[VitriolicViolet]

alright. some of you have said that bringing in 12v12 changed the game into what we have now, deathballs, poking, getting nuked if your out of cover and generally timid behaviour. secondly the mechs that were out back then had much smaller alphas (35-40 instead of 60-80). also talking of having more wide spread interesting engagements. or flanking the enemy by yourself in an assault ( this is great fun, i do it from time to time at the moment still nothing like coming up from behind the enemy assault lance in a Highlander or Mauler). there is also the fact that the player base itself has changed significantly since early days.

these ideas all assume that if implemented (8v8) the playerbase will some how revert back to that old style of playing, with less deathballing, spreading around, longer games and more chance to effect the battle through less players.

considering all the half-hearted measures used to try encourage any other style than poke n shoot From terrible ideas such as lasers needing locks to badly produced game modes like incursion to other crap like ghost heat its obvious what the players who play want is nothing but balling up and shooting. at any and every opportunity most players make a beeline toward the enemy and start shooting. ive heard multiple people actively denigrate those who go after objectives.

as for spreading around its generally ensures a loss due to the tactics currently used. if we go 8v8 i cant see splitting into smaller groups as being at all useful, you will be crushed under focus fire pretty much just as fast. an Atlas getting 8 mechs pounding 60-80 damage aplhas will die in nearly the same amount of time as 12. just reducing team numbers wont do anything to discourage the games currently prefered tactics. play style as well, when it started MWO was mostly fans of the older games, since steam launch it seems weve gotten a bunch of generic FPS players as well.

As for those saying it means less carrying, not really. with less players each individuals choices of build and mech become much more important. presumably the MM would function better with less players per game so better matches could be made as long as theres enough players. but in game having less players is also a lot more pressure to do well, you cant **** up in 8v8 as the only assault, if you do your team will die compared to 12v12 which is more forgiving imo. its one reason scout mode isnt more popular if you screw up its magnifyed by having less team mates. it also gives more opportunity to absolutely crush the enemy as asingle player. get 4 kills? half the enemy is gone and getting 4 kills a game isnt the hardest all ready.

i feel that while it would fix some of the current problems it would also bring a whole host of its own. we have to remember that this is PGI and anything they implement will be to their standard not ours. eveyone remembers The Dong incident and just how long it took for them to even address it let alone do something about it. so it could be good if it was done with attention and concern, or it could be hammered out in 2 hours over a month and litearlly be the same game just with 8 players aside. i think it really depends on how its done.

[B0oN]

NAY, El Bandito ...
BAD El Bandito ...
NAY !