81 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

It's PGI's fault, really. If they hadn't made Clan tech so stupendously overpowered when it was introduced, it wouldn't have been necessary to scale them back so much over time.

Remember 12v10 was the original plan

but they abandoned that when 12v10 was incompatible with matchmaker

and without 12v10 to balance things, clan tech became way too good

they shouldve just stuck with 12v10, because its not like 12v12 has been balanced anyway

[Andi Nagasia]

InspectorG, on 22 July 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but clans are still better via 2 slot DHS and C-Xl engine. Then, in reference t the previous, equipment that is smaller/lighter.

LFE and MRM close the gap a bit...but...DHS/XL still present the best advantage.

But dont worry, there are just as many Clan potatoes, that cant press W or read the RADAR, as there are IS potatoes.

C-XL is a problem, but this was kinda balanced in as IS mechs are genuinely more Agile(Engine Desync),
not saying that this is 100% a non Issue but its not as bad as it used to be its much closer now,

as for 3Crit DHS it doesnt matter as much as you would think,
-
HBK-4P
6ERML(389) + 9DHS + 275LFE(89.1kph) + LFerro,
(10 x 0.20) + (9 x 0.15) = -3.35Heat/Sec(51%CoolingEfficiency)
(Now with -5% EnergyHeatQuirk = 54%CoolingEfficiency)
-
HBK-IIC-A
6ERML(400m) + 16DHS + 275XL(89.1kph) + Ferro,
(10 x 0.20) + (16 x 0.15) = -4.40Heat/Sec(56%CoolingEfficiency)
-
as you can see these Similar Builds have similar Range & Heat Efficiency,
all wail the Clan Mech seems to Dissipate +1Heat/Sec, the IS Heat Gen Quirks really help balance it,
now the Clan Mech does do more damage, but they also do the same Damage per Tick at more heat,
with this in mind i can say the new IS options allow for a More Balanced Playing Field,

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

Remember 12v10 was the original plan

but they abandoned that when 12v10 was incompatible with matchmaker

and without 12v10 to balance things, clan tech became way too good

they shouldve just stuck with 12v10, because its not like 12v12 has been balanced anyway

PGI said they tested 12v10, yes it wasnt compatible with the Current Match Maker but their was other Problems,
mostly a Clan Teams lost much more often then IS teams as 2more mechs adds 2more mechs of weapons & Armor,
as 12v10 wasnt working, and left even more to desire when working such a system into the MM is was Abandoned,

we can say that these past Few Months MWO has been mostly balanced,
within 6% is very good considering 80 or so Chassis, across 2 Factions with Loads of weapons,
Balance has been a Bumpy Ride, but its been good these past few months all things considered,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 July 2017 - 08:24 PM.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 July 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

HBK-4P
6ERML(389) + 9DHS + 275LFE(89.1kph) + LFerro,
(10 x 0.20) + (9 x 0.15) = -3.35Heat/Sec(51%CoolingEfficiency)
(Now with -5% EnergyHeatQuirk = 54%CoolingEfficiency)
-
HBK-IIC-A
6ERML(400m) + 16DHS + 275XL(89.1kph) + Ferro,
(10 x 0.20) + (16 x 0.15) = -4.40Heat/Sec(56%CoolingEfficiency)
-
as you can see these Similar Builds have similar Range & Heat Efficiency,
all wail the Clan Mech seems to Dissipate +1Heat/Sec, the IS Heat Gen Quirks really help balance it,
now the Clan Mech does do more damage, but they also do the same Damage per Tick at more heat,
with this in mind i can say the new IS options allow for a More Balanced Playing Field,

If I were to nitpick, IS ERML has 360 range, and HBK-4P has no range quirks. Dunno why you put 389 meters there. And Clan range is compounded by TCMK1 and the 15% range you get from skill nodes. So basically IS ERML reaches 857 meter max range, compared to CERML's 952 meters. About 50 meters difference in optimum range and 100 meters difference in max range.

And of course, HBK-IIC will have bigger heat capacity due to having more DHS in the first place, which will be augmented by Operations nodes. Heat dissipation is not the only factor at play here.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 July 2017 - 08:37 PM.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 22 July 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

If I were to nitpick, IS ERML has 360 range, and HBK-4P has no range quirks. Dunno why you put 389 meters there. And Clan range is compounded by TCMK1 and the 15% range you get from skill nodes. So basically IS ERML reaches 857 meter max range, compared to CERML's 952 meters. About 50 meters difference in optimum range and 100 meters difference in max range.

And of course, HBK-IIC will have bigger heat capacity due to having more DHS in the first place, which will be augmented by Operations nodes. Heat dissipation is not the only factor at play here.

No. Also at play here is other quirks.

The Hunchback 4P, after all, has 50% higher acceleration, 20% faster pitch/yaw/turn rates. And 18/12 bonus armor/structure to it's RT.... and -10% to it's already shorter laser duration.

If we want to look at the whole picture, anyways.

[El Bandito]

Wintersdark, on 22 July 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

No. Also at play here is other quirks.

The Hunchback 4P, after all, has 50% higher acceleration, 20% faster pitch/yaw/turn rates. And 18/12 bonus armor/structure to it's RT.... and -10% to it's already shorter laser duration.

If we want to look at the whole picture, anyways.

True. But I was hoping that IS LFE and ERMLs were competent enough so that IS HBKs would not have to rely on such quirks to stay on near equal ground. Which is the whole point of cross faction tech balance. Yet, LFE is 100% worse than CXL, and IS ERMLs are damn hot for their 360 meter range.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 July 2017 - 08:58 PM.

[InspectorG]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 July 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

C-XL is a problem, but this was kinda balanced in as IS mechs are genuinely more Agile(Engine Desync),
not saying that this is 100% a non Issue but its not as bad as it used to be its much closer now,

as for 3Crit DHS it doesnt matter as much as you would think,

Still, on lazor/peep builds, Clans can shove in more DHS.

Your HBK vs HNT builds is one case. Its the overall trend that counts, IMO. It seems nitpick-y, but, the difference of one Slot makes a huge difference. Look at IS LBX 20. 11 slots, barely useable, but Clan LB20 can be equipped by many heavies.

Clans have a blanket advantage on weight anf space. This is where 1 ton, 1 slot makes the difference.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lightfoot, on 22 July 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

I am good with Mechlab so I could always beat Clan mechs with Inner Sphere. Easily and always. That doesn't change the fact that new players have little understanding of how to turn an Inner Sphere Battlemech into a mech that competes with Clan omnimechs. Clan Omnimechs come complete, you can only change the weapons so new players get handed a very competitive mech. And therein lies the Clan vs I.S. discrepancy because Clan mechs and tech are so nerfed by PGI to save the new players from getting trounced.

Anyway, when I play an I.S. mech it's unstoppable, much better than Clan. With the new tech even more. But I do wonder if PGI knows they are nerfing Clan tech based on stats from players who haven't figured out how to Mechlab a Battlemech?

I mean, when I do buy a "C" class mech with the player's best design, I fix what they did wrong. In my opinion most of the "C" mechs are trash designs.

No your quite wrong here. There are a few Clan Omnimechs that are optimally configured, but most are not. I mean when is the last time you have seen a Warhawk, Gargoyle or Ice Ferret on any competitive team. The challenge for a Clan Player is learning how to work around all the restrictions that come attached to a Clan Omnimech and making something decent out of it.

As far as the tables turning, I don't really mind the IS getting buffed up because I have a ton of IS mechs I play regularily, I just absolutely hate that the Clan keep getting nerfed. Hell I am finding myself frustrated as hell playing my Clan mechs because my timing is completely off now that they increased the cooldown on ER MLs and such. I keep making mistake that are costing me dearly because my muscle memory is telling me that my lasers should be ready to fire again and I am mashing down on the buttons wondering why my lasers aren't firing. That one simple thing has gotten me killed like a dozen times now.

So where PGI has failed is not being able to buff IS mechs up without nerfing the Clans constantly. To use PGI's term, it is not "Fun or Engaing" to have your mechs constantly get worse with each and every patch. Honestly I would have rather had 6 damage IS ER MLs than longer cooldown and higher heat C ER MLs and at least if they did that, no one would have been pissed off because their mech got nerfed. I Don't have a clue why PGI can't figure this crap out.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 22 July 2017 - 09:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

No your quite wrong here. There are a few Clan Omnimechs that are optimally configured, but most are not. I mean when is the last time you have seen a Warhawk, Gargoyle or Ice Ferret on any competitive team.

For the first two, early in the last MRBC season (season 9, IIRC). For the last one, a few seasons ago (season 7).

The Warhawk is quite good with quad ERPPC, the Gargoyle was straight-nasty as a brawler before the cSPL nerf.

Most Clan Omnis have seen competitive use. The only one I can think of that hasn't seen any is the Mist Lynx, for obvious reasons.

[Gas Guzzler]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

I mean when is the last time you have seen a Warhawk, Gargoyle or Ice Ferret on any competitive team.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

For the first two, early in the last MRBC season (season 9, IIRC). For the last one, a few seasons ago (season 7).

Can confirm, all 3 of those have seen competitive use relatively recently.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

For the first two, early in the last MRBC season (season 9, IIRC). For the last one, a few seasons ago (season 7).

The Warhawk is quite good with quad ERPPC, the Gargoyle was straight-nasty as a brawler before the cSPL nerf.

Most Clan Omnis have seen competitive use. The only one I can think of that hasn't seen any is the Mist Lynx, for obvious reasons.

So you saw them at minimum several months ago? Yeah they sure seem to be really common on the competitive scene. My point stands. I mean just about any mech is going to be competitive in the right hands so yeah your going to see the few odd mechs show up on competitive teams but they aren't typically "Go To" mechs for the competitive scene because they aren't that well optimized. Sure a Warhawk does ok with Quad PPCs but are you going to tell me that most competitive players would choose a Warhawk over a Marauder IIC? Same with the Gargoyle. I have a nasty brawler Gargoyle build myself but that doesn't mean I would chose the Gargoyle as my top pick if I planned on any competitive play.

I will grant you one thing though. In proportion, there are more straight up Bad IS mechs than there are Bad Clan mechs so I guess there is at least some truth to what you say. As a noob you have a much greater chance purchasing a terri-bad IS mech than you do with a Clan mech and with most Omnis, at least if you do happen to purchase a bad one you usually have options to make it better through the Omnipod system, without having to buy a new mech. I still don't think that means they are really any easier to build out though because you can screw up a Clan omnimech just as easily as an IS mech, maybe even more so due to having to build around all the restrictions.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

So you saw them at minimum several months ago? Yeah they sure seem to be really common on the competitive scene.

You mean the competitive scene which is in-between seasons? Come on, now...

Quote

My point stands. I mean just about any mech is going to be competitive in the right hands so yeah your going to see the few odd mechs show up on competitive teams but they aren't typically "Go To" mechs for the competitive scene because they aren't that well optimized.

Your point does not stand. The 'Mechs that get chosen are chosen specifically because they are well optimized for the desired task. The IFR was chosen because it was a fast, durable Medium and great for keeping the enemy off-balance by capping points and poking from range odd angles. It's still good at that, but the Viper (also an Omni) is even better at it.

Quote

Sure a Warhawk does ok with Quad PPCs but are you going to tell me that most competitive players would choose a Warhawk over a Marauder IIC?

Gas is more up to snuff than I am, but IIRC the Warhawk is better if you are fighting long range since it can lay out 40 PPFLD faster than you can burn 5-6x cERLL. The MAD-IIC is the better choice for mid-range and close-range until the MCII becomes legal.

Quote

Same with the Gargoyle. I have a nasty brawler Gargoyle build myself but that doesn't mean I would chose the Gargoyle as my top pick if I planned on any competitive play.

Not anymore you wouldn't. Without cSPL, the Gargoyle's only really good at MedLas boating now, but there are a zillion 'Mechs that can do that and it's a waste of an Assault 'Mech and a waste of its speed to limit it so.

Quote

I will grant you one thing though. In proportion, there are more straight up Bad IS mechs than there are Bad Clan mechs so I guess there is at least some truth to what you say. As a noob you have a much greater chance purchasing a terri-bad IS mech than you do with a Clan mech and with most Omnis, at least if you do happen to purchase a bad one you usually have options to make it better through the Omnipod system, without having to buy a new mech. I still don't think that means they are really any easier to build out though because you can screw up a Clan omnimech just as easily as an IS mech, maybe even more so due to having to build around all the restrictions.

Eh, with most Omnis you can throw on 5-6 cERML and have a competent 'Mech. Even a Heavy with only that is still quite fearsome because 42 damage is enough to drop most 'Mechs to red armor in two shots, the range is solid, and the rest of it is heatsinks so it can just push, push, push.

And the build restrictions don't typically get in the way. I mean, sure, you can't build every Omni to fill any role you want, but you can't do that with any 'Mech. But even a very limited 'Mech like the Summoner is still competent at laser boating, missile bombing, pop-tarting, and even moderate ballistics. That's pretty awesome. It has more of an issue with its low-hanging arm weapons than it does with the fact that it's an Omni.

[Khobai]

Quote

Eh, with most Omnis you can throw on 5-6 cERML and have a competent 'Mech.

not so much anymore. CERML are friggin brutal on heat nowadays. and the beam durations pretty suck.

you really need at least 2 CLPLs thrown in to make the heat bearable. or you need to use CMPLs.

clan laser vomits still decent though but theyre a lot more dependent on pulses than before. CERML isnt that good as a primary weapon anymore; even with the increased range, all the other disadvantages drag it down. youve gotta have something else besides just CERML these days.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 10:49 PM.

[Dead Tom Kerensky]

That 6% number is a lie. Most powerhouse merc units went IS for the event because IS has shorter queue times. Using the shorter queue times those powerhouse units played an average of 40% more games than high end clan units and IS played more commonly vs unorganized clan groups. Teamwork beats tech. Where the clans made up this deficit was in even games like group v group or pug v pug. In these cases the tech showed through to such an extent it gave an overall clan win.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 22 July 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

True. But I was hoping that IS LFE and ERMLs were competent enough so that IS HBKs would not have to rely on such quirks to stay on near equal ground. Which is the whole point of cross faction tech balance. Yet, LFE is 100% worse than CXL, and IS ERMLs are damn hot for their 360 meter range.

Well, the LFE is worse than the cXL for sure, but not "100% worse". It's much, err, less worse than the STD or XL after all. And Clan ERML's are also damned hot - both weapons are 1.11 DPH not counting quirks. ER lasers are hot.

If the new tech alone brought parity between IS and Clans without quirks (and I wish that where the case) there'd be some GROSSLY OP IS mechs right now, given as a rule of thumb they've already got heavy structure, armor, and agility bonuses which are (in the same manner as the Clan's ERML range) buffed even more by the skill tree.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

not so much anymore. CERML are friggin brutal on heat nowadays. and the beam durations pretty suck.

you really need at least 2 CLPLs thrown in to make the heat bearable. or you need to use CMPLs.

clan laser vomits still decent though but theyre a lot more dependent on pulses than before. CERML isnt that good as a primary weapon anymore; even with the increased range, all the other disadvantages drag it down.

It's not competitive, certainly, but it's not hard to still do well with just that. It's not even hard to do well with just 6x IS ERML, though you will have to poke even more aggressively.

And yeah, the heat is brutal. When you get 20x DHS, not that bad, but it's dramatically reduced the number of options for the light 'Mechs, i.e. MLX.

[FallingAce]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 July 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

Faction balance is within 6%? Where do you pull that from?

Also, what nerfs? The cERML heat increase?

Actually the number is 8%
https://www.reddit.c...all_transcript/
"Q: Recently posted IS/Clan balance was closer than ever before. You said 8%. How do you internalize your data to come up with such a comparison?

Chris: We pull data from servers. I can see how good mechs are performing across multiple different balance points. We can't get into specifics."

FallingAce, on 02 July 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

The clans won 28.5% more matches than the I.S.

I.S. wins 51818
Clan wins 66617

So the clans turned their 8% advantage into 28% more wins.

Edited by FallingAce, 22 July 2017 - 11:51 PM.

[Valhallan]

nm ninjaed wahaha

Edited by Valhallan, 23 July 2017 - 12:07 AM.

[Methanoid]

The biggest change ive noted is that 95% of the matches ive played since the patch are over and done in 5mins or less with 1 team massivly steamrolling the other via team zerg, it makes for pretty boring games.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

BrunoSSace, on 22 July 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

So new techs dropped and the tech gap has closed so close together now that there seems to be no gap. The IS are now competitive with Clan counter parts. All I'm seeing is Claners unhappy because they don't have the massive advantage like they use to.
For example in FP, an Ebon Jaguar was shooting me at 600 range for around 40 alpha. I fired back using er mediums and er larges and did like 35 back to him. He was like? Back in the day, it use be a free trade for him. Now my little Grasshopper can trade back. I'm calling it now, some IS mechs might lose some of their quirks and FP tonage might become even. State of the game for an IS pilot seems very good atm.
Bruno

The reason clanners are mad is because even before the new tech you could easily beat that Ebon Jaguar. At 600 range his ERML were nerfed to be doing nearly no damage (688.5m max range, now its 800 at least but the heat per shot and dps was lowered too along with optimal range last patch), if hes running 2 LPL and 6 ERML as standard then he'd get maybe 30 damage at that range.

Meanwhile you're using a Grasshopper, one of the IS's prolific ERLL boats for FW, capable of carrying up to 6 ERLL, but most commonly using 5, 4 for those who can't stand heat. Even with just 4 ERLL you'd entirely outrange him, you'd deal 36 damage at optimal ranges and you'd be running cooler with shorter durations. Go on up to 5 and you're putting out 45 damage that at best he can push out about 20 damage against at your optimal range.

Many IS pilots were not using what was already given to them that would have allowed them to wipe Clanners up all the time, now with new tech heavily buffing the IS side everyone who saw the game as balanced before can see just how superior IS mechs can be in a common match, especially when you take into account the huge bonuses IS get from structure and armor quirks when they get multiplied by the skill tree.


Basically its gotten to the point that non meta IS builds can compete with Clan meta builds, which seems balanced to many, but doesn't take into account the IS meta builds absolutely demolishing the Clan ones. It ends up seeming balanced in FP because of all the pilots who don't play meta on the IS side (Clan has some too, but not as many), but pilots such as myself can just go over to IS and be immortal.

IS vs Clan scouting balance is an absolute joke right now, Bushwacker with LFE280, 4 ASRM6, and 2 RL20s with armor quirks, great hitboxes, and a one time alpha that oneshots a Clan 50 tonner followed by the normal 4 ASRM6 meta of before the patch vs some Novas reduced to bringing Micro pulse lasers and HMGs. How are they even supposed to compete when their optimal range is 90m and they've already either been opened up or have a side torso missing before they get into even their max range? 6 ASRM6 Huntsman is decent, but not as sustainable with the heat and is much weaker armor wise and doesn't get the rocket launcher death punch, its no match.


So yeah, I'd say the state of the game does seem good for an IS pilot, too good, but hey, Liao's paying.

InspectorG, on 22 July 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

Still, on lazor/peep builds, Clans can shove in more DHS.

Your HBK vs HNT builds is one case. Its the overall trend that counts, IMO. It seems nitpick-y, but, the difference of one Slot makes a huge difference. Look at IS LBX 20. 11 slots, barely useable, but Clan LB20 can be equipped by many heavies.

Clans have a blanket advantage on weight anf space. This is where 1 ton, 1 slot makes the difference.

Look at IS LBX20 vs IS AC20, IS AC20 is one slot smaller and puts all its damage in one spot, making it better at killing enemies, IS has a blanket advantage on pin point damage and space vs IS.

Might as well compare good builds to good builds, most people aren't even using LBX20 for anything competitive, only use it gets from Clan mechs is because they don't have a normal AC20 that puts damage in one spot.

Edited by Dakota1000, 23 July 2017 - 01:10 AM.

[Paigan]

Lorewise, the new tech was meant to close the gap, so no complaints there on my part.

Another aspect is that PGI is unwilling to or incapable of asymmetrical balance, so they have to magically quirk up low-tech IS and senselessly nerf down high-tech clans to forcefully equalize them.

That being said, my experience is that my favorite build is still vastly superior to any comparable IS build. Admitted because of the huge quirks on the clan side.