81 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

You made this post feel a lot like bait when you make generalised claims like "claners are unhappy because they don't have the massive advantage", firstly what massive advantage? The 5-10% greater chance of victory? Secondly what kind of implication are you making by saying it? Clanners only played clan cos OP? Clanners are bad players with OP mechs?

Lemme guess that also means you think IS players are all pros who purposely put themselves at a disadvantage because they are so good?

How humble.

[Weeny Machine]

First of all: I am neither Clanner nor IS, in fact I play both.

Now, about the new tech: I am glad that the gap was closed. This is definitely great.

What is bad: I would have wished that clanners got a more diverse arsenal as well. Currently it is simply more fun for me to play IS mechs because the builds are so diverse.

[Templar Dane]

FallingAce, on 22 July 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

Actually the number is 8%
https://www.reddit.c...all_transcript/
"Q: Recently posted IS/Clan balance was closer than ever before. You said 8%. How do you internalize your data to come up with such a comparison?

Chris: We pull data from servers. I can see how good mechs are performing across multiple different balance points. We can't get into specifics."





So the clans turned their 8% advantage into 28% more wins.

Before the event, as with all Tuk events, IS outnumbered clan. Tuk 1 and 2 had terrible wait times for IS because there were too many people signed up for them.......so big active units went clan for faster queue times.

Tuk 3 the same thing happened. We know the win percentage, we don't have numbers on how organized each side was. Hell, the top units during the event were far and away THE reason for clan winning. Look at their scores and imagine if they had been IS and their points had gone to IS.

[Lightfoot]

My comment was just that most all Inner Sphere mechs require a fairly high understanding of Mechlab. It's not rocket science (it's mech science), but new players miss build options that make Inner Sphere mechs go from just good to great. Clan mechs come with little left for players to do in Mechlab.

I don't care really, I like being able to min-max an Inner Sphere mech into a powerhouse and crush everything. Sauce for the goose. I just wonder if PGI is really aware that they are continuing to nerf Clan mechs and tech based on stats from players who haven't mastered Mechlab-ing Inner Sphere mechs? It seems to me that parity between the two techs was passed before Civil War tech, but the Clan nerfs keep coming.

[Mystere]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 July 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

PGI said they tested 12v10, yes it wasnt compatible with the Current Match Maker but their was other Problems,
mostly a Clan Teams lost much more often then IS teams as 2more mechs adds 2more mechs of weapons & Armor,
as 12v10 wasnt working, and left even more to desire when working such a system into the MM is was Abandoned,

I am so glad I am not the only one here who still remembers those very interesting results. I don't know about others, but as far as I am concerned those really put to lie the claims of a number of people here who insist that a 10C vs. 12IS setup just makes the IS nothing more that mere "cannon fodder".

As for it "not working", that's entirely on the level of effort PGI wanted to put in, which hopefully would not be the usual "minimally viable" kind. Just look at the Civil War release. They did not even finish the visual retrofitting before releasing the new tech.

[Mystere]

Paigan, on 23 July 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

Another aspect is that PGI is unwilling to or incapable of asymmetrical balance, so they have to magically quirk up low-tech IS and senselessly nerf down high-tech clans to forcefully equalize them.

PGI really should have just switched to a different IP and renamed and revisualized everything. On the long term, that would have probably been easier than these endless "balancing" cycles and subsequent player hemorrhaging. BT was just the absolutely wrong IP to stubbornly insist on 1:1 balancing, especially given their gaming development track record.

They sure seem have the requisite artist vs. system developer ratio to get that done.

Bush Hopper, on 23 July 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

What is bad: I would have wished that clanners got a more diverse arsenal as well. Currently it is simply more fun for me to play IS mechs because the builds are so diverse.

I am really shocked, and I really mean shocked, that this point was conveniently overlooked by the OP.

[MustrumRidcully]

It's Civil War, they should ditch the whole IS vs Clan thing and create two meta-factions that each has IS and Clan members, so we can have at least mixed faction FP matches.

For Clan vs IS balance concerns, the only "match-making" restraint they would need to add is to mandate the same number of Clanners and IS mechs on each side.

The pressure of balancing CLan and IS tech and the constant "greener grass on the other faction" syndrome would go away, and instead the balance concerns would be need only be solved on an item by item and mech by mech level.

[Agent 0range]

By PGI's reckoning they brought the balance to an 8 % gap with engine desync and the skill tree. 8% is still massive. If anyone has ever played world of tanks a 46% player is terrible and a 54% player is considered good(by win rate) tech base alone doing that isn't good for a game.

The new toys will close that gap by how much we shall see. 8% is a large difference to overcome they need to try and get the balance to 1-2% difference. At the same time keep an eye on outliers so that neither side ends up relying on a few specific mechanical builds that are too effective.

Edited by Agent 0range, 23 July 2017 - 05:18 AM.

[Templar Dane]

Agent 0range, on 23 July 2017 - 05:17 AM, said:

By PGI's reckoning they brought the balance to an 8 % gap with engine desync and the skill tree. 8% is still massive. If anyone has ever played world of tanks a 46% player is terrible and a 54% player is considered good(by win rate) tech base alone doing that isn't good for a game.

The new toys will close that gap by how much we shall see. 8% is a large difference to overcome they need to try and get the balance to 1-2% difference. At the same time keep an eye on outliers so that neither side ends up relying on a few specific mechanical builds that are too effective.

46% compared to 54%. WITH those big units dropping with more 12mans. Balance during that time was razor thin. If we went back to pre-skill tree it would be like that again.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

of course theyre unhappy their stuff keeps getting nerfed. nobody likes their stuff getting nerfed.

it wouldve been much more of a feel good change for everyone if PGI just buffed ISXL to survive side torso destruction.

instead of nerfing clan agility across the board.

I've only played a single Clan mech since well... the skill tree.

So beyond that I've played the IS and I gotta say, of my 252 mechs, most are IS... and a fuckload of them have had their mobility nerfed quite badly. Now, I confess my Timber Wolf after trying it really sucked in terms of mobility, but then I did the full tree and I came out kinda close. Granted no 55% acceleration or 50% faster braking or 70% faster torso twisting, but.. it feels pretty good and it kicks *** without having used any of the new toys yet.

Now, most of my mechs also don't feel like they did before. Torso twisting on my Atlas is about as pointless as putting an LB-10X on the Locust. My 80 tonners feel quite a bit worse. My 85 tonners are really meh without going beserk on the mobility tree and even then... they ain't what they used to be. Most of my assaults are on par with Dire Wolves now and I say this as a pretty decent Dire Wolf user (even got the Steam pack so that I could have a second Dire Wolf with a 30% cbill bonus and be able to chain them back to back in quickplay without waiting. My heavies are a mixed bag. Some got a bit better, some a bit more tolerable, and some got PGI's coconut monkey deuce.


On my mediums it has been a bit more merciful. Sure everything is a bit slower unless capitalizing on speed tweak and even then, the speed tweak isn't as big as it was before the skill tree change.

Lights got the living **** buffed out of them if they eat up their skills in the mobility tree

Anyway, my point is the IS got a fuckton of mobility hits, too. The only mech I own that got something truly good out of the engine desync is the CTF 4X. And that archaic hitbox STILL needs to be redone, it hasn't been touched since 2013 and the thing is a walking center torso with a CT hitbox wider than the Awesome ever had. And I'm not exaggerating. You can juxtapose the two over each other, the CTF's CT is bigger than the Awesome's, both physically and in terms of hitbox.

Now if you mean nerfing their agility after losing a side torso, the IS LFEs are doing this too.

[Agent 0range]

Templar Dane, on 23 July 2017 - 05:22 AM, said:

46% compared to 54%. WITH those big units dropping with more 12mans. Balance during that time was razor thin. If we went back to pre-skill tree it would be like that again.

8% is based on all games according to PGI there is a link (further back in thread)to the discussion given from a Dev responsible for balance. Overall looking at one aspect like big units dropping one side or the other becomes minor when millions of mech are being played. They said they pay special attention to outliers to observe why the perform so above/below average then try to be ring them into balance.

Link to thread where balance e is discussed by Chris
https://mwomercs.com...l-tree-balance/

Since then we have had an energy weapon pass plus new tech. How much that closes the gap we shall see especially as ISLPL has been nerfed and was considered to be the go to weapon for an effective fp mech.

Hoping for more variety as acceptable for fp once my pc is fixed so I don't get so much **** for my Orion drop deck.

Edited by Agent 0range, 23 July 2017 - 06:15 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Templar Dane, on 23 July 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

Before the event, as with all Tuk events, IS outnumbered clan. Tuk 1 and 2 had terrible wait times for IS because there were too many people signed up for them.......so big active units went clan for faster queue times.

Tuk 3 the same thing happened. We know the win percentage, we don't have numbers on how organized each side was. Hell, the top units during the event were far and away THE reason for clan winning. Look at their scores and imagine if they had been IS and their points had gone to IS.

You know PGI has flat out told us that the Clans tend to attract a more skilled player base but IS loyalists just absolute will not accept that fact as true. Instead it is always the tech that is the issue. It is like the fact that more skilled players play Clan is a personal affront to their skill when it has nothing to do with personal skill and everything to do with the skill comp of their teams.

Honestly I am not sure why anyone is surprised that there is a less skilled player base on the IS side, I mean purchasing an IS mech is about half the cost of purchasing a Clan Mech. If people don't already understand the implication of this then I will break it down for them. Noobs. Yep, noobs because they are buying the much cheaper IS mechs and with little to no understanding of how to build out a mech let alone build out a drop decks worth are playing FW. Also they don't even know which mech is good or bad in the first place so they are buying subpar mechs and many of them probably only have a few mechs so are using whatever they happen to have available to the in mech bays with little to no regard about tonnage.

So yeah it is pretty obvious, they have a larger player base of unskilled players participating and those players, many in the solo que, are what brings the IS win percentages down, not so much tech, maybe even not at all.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 23 July 2017 - 06:57 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Viktor Drake, on 23 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

You know PGI has flat out told us that the Clans tend to attract a more skilled player base but IS loyalists just absolute will not accept that fact as true.

That's because the flock to superior robots...which Clams have

[Methanoid]

Viktor Drake, on 23 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

You know PGI has flat out told us that the Clans tend to attract a more skilled player base but IS loyalists just absolute will not accept that fact as true.

Tbh i only like clan mechs because of omnipods, replacing a cheap part is way better than having to buy a fixed stat mech every time you want to just change from say an energy weapon to launcher to projectile, i cant be sat ingame all day every week every month earning cbills that vanish at the drop of a hat when trying to skill up/buy new gear, far more economical for a casual like me to just buy replacement omnipods when required when experimenting. Couldnt really care about the whole IS/Clan loyalty thing, cheap, easy to modify suits me fine so i use mostly clan mechs for that simple reason.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Viktor Drake, on 23 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

You know PGI has flat out told us that the Clans tend to attract a more skilled player base but IS loyalists just absolute will not accept that fact as true. Instead it is always the tech that is the issue. It is like the fact that more skilled players play Clan is a personal affront to their skill when it has nothing to do with personal skill and everything to do with the skill comp of their teams.

Reminder - the best players will use the best equipment, so the fact PGI admits more skilled players use Clan 'mechs, only reinforces the fact that Clan equipment is stronger.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 23 July 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

Anyway, my point is the IS got a fuckton of mobility hits, too. The only mech I own that got something truly good out of the engine desync is the CTF 4X. And that archaic hitbox STILL needs to be redone, it hasn't been touched since 2013 and the thing is a walking center torso with a CT hitbox wider than the Awesome ever had. And I'm not exaggerating. You can juxtapose the two over each other, the CTF's CT is bigger than the Awesome's, both physically and in terms of hitbox.

Now if you mean nerfing their agility after losing a side torso, the IS LFEs are doing this too.

Everyone got mobility nerfs, but the Clans were way worse off. It's easy to just look in the store - you can see the mobility values there. Compare similar mechs, see the difference. You can just look at a single value if you like, as they're all linked, so just compare for example acceleration values - a mech that accelerates faster turns faster too.

100 ton mechs like the Atlas took it harder, and for reasons unknown PGI just lost massive agility bonus quirks that were not rolled into the base stats. Most IS mechs, however, had their agility quirks rolled into base stats.

Many are the same (used tonnage based baselines), but you'll note that the stronger Clan mechs took severe agility nerfs over and above the "baseline" whereas (other than the 100 tonners, who all took it in the face) IS mechs with agility quirks tended to have those quirks rolled into their base stats.

Essentially, IS mechs had their base levels set at the same point as Clans, but then got their quirks pushed back into their base stats. On the other hand, Clan top performers saw further agility nerfs.

[Spheroid]

Nothing has changed, there has been no balance change. You think ermlas is going magically change the outcome on the battlefield?

What about my nerfed I.S. LPLAS, reduced range and durability on Battlemaster-2C and the unfortunate addition of ghost heat to mplas/mlas combinations above six?

The new weapons are hardly appropriate(or effective) for CW. The new ATMs, micro and heavy lasers are very usable though and the Mad Cat Mk II is formidable opponent.

Maybe you will see the truth once the potatoes leave after this event is over

[Y E O N N E]

Spheroid, on 23 July 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Nothing has changed, there has been no balance change. You think ermlas is going magically change the outcome on the battlefield?

What about my nerfed I.S. LPLAS, reduced range and durability on Battlemaster-2C and the unfortunate addition of ghost heat to mplas/mlas combinations above six?

The new weapons are hardly appropriate(or effective) for CW. The new ATMs, micro and heavy lasers are very usable though and the Mad Cat Mk II is formidable opponent.

Maybe you will see the truth once the potatoes leave after this event is over

5x LPL is 100% obsolete with this thing roaming around.

Of all the 'Mechs to pick, the Battlemaster is the one that isn't hurting at all.

[Aim64C]

Generally speaking, I'd say that the Clans still have substantially superior equipment.

The LFE doesn't really change much for the IS because their mechs are always hurting for critical space. They need DHS to be competitive and are eating up tons of crits for those. Mechs using more risky XL builds have to sacrifice weapons to survive side-torso destruction and/or take a substantial step down in overall mobility... either of which tends to negate the extra 20 seconds of life you get from surviving a side torso destruction (okay... sometimes you get a couple minutes or even last the rest of the game... but big deal - you've got 2 medium lasers left, or something).

MRMs are whatevs and the only real improvements come from the ER medium and small lasers and the Streak SRM 4s and 6s, which breathe a bit of new life back into IS mediums and lights. The rocket launchers are a little gimmicky, but can tip the balance of a push, so I kind of consider them more valid than MRMs, surprisingly.

The light PPC may make it onto a few lights and mediums. The light gauss may be interesting on some heavies and mediums... but I don't really see much in the way of game balance changers - other than, surprisingly enough, the rocket launcher.

The thing is that even in tabletop - the IS tech gap never really "closed" with the Clans. A scenario that may be kind of unrealistic after over 100 years of technological development while in direct contact with Clan technology and capture of processes - but present within the rules. Some IS equipment came out that had different or more wonky mechanics... but they never really improved the Gauss Rifle to match the Clans' version, or their ERPPC to match the Clans. DHS always took up three criticals, etc.

There's not really much of a way to close this gap. The Clans pretty much are any Inner Sphere mech design, give it the mobility of the class lighter, add at least one large laser and an LRM 10 - two of each in the case of heavies and assaults.

To put this all into context, my laser-vomit Battlemaster can put out something like a 56 point alpha that will take a ghost heat penalty. 4 LPLs and 2 ERMLs My laser-vomit Supernova can pull a 78 point alpha with no ghost heat and survive side torso destruction. 2HLL, 6 ERMLs.

Sure, there are mild operating differences - the Battlemaster is faster; but I am running an XL in it to give it that mobility. I have considered putting in an LFE, but we'll have to see. That will require a drop in rating and will lose me a few heat sinks. I'm usually on the verge of being cored by time I die to a side torso hit, anyway - so I doubt it will improve my survivability much.

The weapon difference is notable - the damage duration is much shorter on my battlemaster than on the supernova - but from my own rounds in playing, I'd say the supernova still outshines the battlemaster by having arm mounted weapons that can easily track or even fire on a target while I have my torso twisted to protect a component.

I vaporized a raven in a single alpha from my supernova. I've never done that in my battlemaster under similar scenarios.

It's not the 3ERPPC "Commando Disintegration Ray" from years back (Blackjack 1-X with 3 ERPPC in one arm - guaranteed to hit on one armor location), but it still will open up the armor on most 'mechs in a little over a second.

And that is in lasers - a weapon system the IS had the most parity with Clans against. (Missiles are half the weight and a fraction of the criticals, ballistics are minus a couple tons and criticals...).

The only real thing going for the IS vs Clans was the hilariously limited nature of Omnimechs relative to standard 'mechs. That flew out the window with the IICs and the standard mech variants coming out for the Clans. Now, the same aggressive min/max strategies that allowed the Inner Sphere to be relatively competitive against the Clans are becoming more prominent within the Clan mechs, themselves.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

All my games in FW so far have been losses with the clans. They weren't even vaguely close. The hits I am taking can't be shaken off/padded, well that combined with the wooden planks stapled to all the clan mechs means padding is impossible.

Wonder if the clan tonnage will get upped any time soon