1809 replies to this topic

[Gwei Loong]

Arnold The Governator, on 02 May 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

Meant to say Palladium finalized negotiations with Harmony Gold USA to produce Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game, an RPG based on Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles. This license was discontinued in 2018.

I understand all that if you watched the videos, and am not taking a side here, but HG didn't have anything to do with the kick-starter you’re talking about. I am just saying the movie is getting done and will be released in 2019. If they do follow through with the video game it's going to be a lot bigger then MW ever got.

You’re all about HG and to me this was always about Carl Macek, Jerry Beck and Fred Patten. If this stuff gets done for them then ok. HG must have some right to having actually produced the Robotech series but there’s way more than just Robotech to consider when it comes to online MMO’s. Anyway like I said if they argue that the designs are not those of Robotech then in effect give up any future claim they may have if those designs get used, because well they have already argued that they were not the designs they were using...

Edited by Gwei Loong, 02 May 2018 - 11:04 AM.

[Gwei Loong]

The whole thing is covered here. It comes down to the Big West vs Macross characters. I does seem though that HG did get rights in the US and of course Big West retained rights in JPN. Anyway as anyone in the anime community knows the fact nothing was ever done with Macross is BS, it's not just BT and I am a big fan of BT also but this case needs to be settled so that both sides can move on.
It'll be very hard for PGI to win the rights to the Macross characters but at the same time this is also very good publicity for both sides and what PGI is doing does secure the future for the Mechwarrior IP.

Edited by Gwei Loong, 02 May 2018 - 11:52 AM.

[SmokedJag]

Metus regem, on 02 May 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

Actually it does, if to get their battletech game out (as part of the deal with paradox) they had to clear their legal troubles away (as I imagine Steam and GoG, might not like the idea of copy right infringement hanging over their heads), not to mention on going costs with legal issues, I wouldn't be surprised if HBS said "Fine, what ever, we'll just pull the unseen. There, happy now?" then reach some sort of cash agreement that both sides were happy with. After that say to a judge, yup we're all good now, this can be dismissed.

If that is the case, and there was the stipulation for them to never put them in, then no matter what happens they are gone. As one of the lawyers said, once you screw up in the case like this you can't really undo that.

If PGI winds up killing off Harmony Gold with summary judgment, HBS would then be clear to put the Unseen back in. For PGI to win on a summary judgment the judge would have to rule as a matter of law Harmony Gold had no merit/standing to argue facts, i.e. no copyright as a matter of law. Once that's a final judgment in a US federal court, that's the end of the subject. Harmony Gold would be barred from litigating it again.

[Metus regem]

Gwei Loong, on 02 May 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

I understand all that if you watched the videos, and am not taking a side here, but HG didn't have anything to do with the kick-starter you’re talking about. I am just saying the movie is getting done and will be released in 2019. If they do follow through with the video game it's going to be a lot bigger then MW ever got.

You’re all about HG and to me this was always about Carl Macek, Jerry Beck and Fred Patten. If this stuff gets done for them then ok. HG must have some right to having actually produced the Robotech series but there’s way more than just Robotech to consider when it comes to online MMO’s. Anyway like I said if they argue that the designs are not those of Robotech then in effect give up any future claim they may have if those designs get used, because well they have already argued that they were not the designs they were using...

Sort of... HG states and admits that they have the rights to the Macross Movie, but not the underlying characters from that movie, as they never got those rights from Big West (nor did Tatsunoko), infact they admit that the had to adjust their documentation in 2003 to match those that Tatsunoko had in Japan, and it did not include the 41 characters that are at the core of this entire event.... HG has no real right to the designs, they also lack the rights to make derivative works of most of those characters.

When it came to Robotech, it's a stitched together chimera of thing, that takes three unrelated anime and forces them (ham-fist-idly) to work with each other... like to the point that Southern Cross generation is nearly an original work.

HG is also claiming that past settlements count as them being in the right, but that is not the case with how these things work.

As for their Robotech Live Action movie, that has been in development hell for the better part of 20 years that I know of, I first heard about it in the early 2000's as they said that Toby Maguire was interested in playing Rich Hunter...

[Alan Davion]

Gwei Loong, on 02 May 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

I understand all that if you watched the videos, and am not taking a side here, but HG didn't have anything to do with the kick-starter you’re talking about.

Like hell HG had nothing to do with the kickstarter. Palladium Books got a license for Robotech from Harmony Gold back in the late 80's to start up the original Robotech RPG, and they held onto that license all the way up to the Shadow Chronicles, and the more recent failed table top game, so there's a good 15-20 years where Palladium did absolutely f***-all with Robotech, just like HG itself.

And for that matter, just a couple months ago Harmony Gold itself actually REVOKED the license Palladium Books had because of how monstrously mis-managed the kickstarter was. You know, what with PB blowing 1.5 MILLION dollars on just the first "wave" of product, and leaving themselves nothing to make wave 2 and stringing along over five thousand people with promises that they were totally working on wave 2.

Harmony Gold even went a step further as to force Palladium to sell off literally every bit of Robotech merchandise they still had, I'm talking total liquidation, probably as recompense to HG or as a way to make sure they weren't sued into the ground.

Everything from the old RPG books to whatever product was still left from the failed tabletop game, which I guarantee there was a lot left over because of how stupidly over complicated the pieces were, to the point where even their core player base didn't want to play the game cause it took too long to assemble and paint everything.

So no, your claim about HG having nothing to do with the Kickstarter falls flat on its face.

[DFM]

Metus regem, on 02 May 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

Sort of... HG states and admits that they have the rights to the Macross Movie, but not the underlying characters from that movie, as they never got those rights from Big West (nor did Tatsunoko), infact they admit that the had to adjust their documentation in 2003 to match those that Tatsunoko had in Japan, and it did not include the 41 characters that are at the core of this entire event.... HG has no real right to the designs, they also lack the rights to make derivative works of most of those characters.

When it came to Robotech, it's a stitched together chimera of thing, that takes three unrelated anime and forces them (ham-fist-idly) to work with each other... like to the point that Southern Cross generation is nearly an original work.

HG is also claiming that past settlements count as them being in the right, but that is not the case with how these things work.

As for their Robotech Live Action movie, that has been in development hell for the better part of 20 years that I know of, I first heard about it in the early 2000's as they said that Toby Maguire was interested in playing Rich Hunter...

which, if PGI or someone else used the EXACT model of the SDFM marauder, or longbow*(<-- this one hurts me..) or others, then they would have claim as they have the rights for that(well, maybe not the movie, AKA. Do You Remember Love? anymore since it was a 5 year deal) *OUTSIDE* of Japan that is.


The longbow is one of my favorite models of ever, across all forms of big stompy robots. Sadly, I could not find one before my self imposed ban on macross products as long as HG was in the equation. Did have one for TT BT though, but sadly lost it during one of my moves as a adult.

As much of a septic tank as the BT rights are, one thing that reeks more from a investment standpoint is the RT franchise in the western world.

[naterist]

https://www.courtlis...42820.122.1.pdf

harmoney golds exhibit A in there reply to pgis reply to harmoney golds reply to pgis request for summary judgement.

this is the liscensing agreement between tatsunoko and harmoney gold dated to march 22 2012, and it says this is the current contract, and all other contracts are null and void and this is the only one that counts.

it says that hg has the merchandising rights to macross, and thats it. also denies hg the rights to any video game adaptations. this seems like a smoking gun against HG that says they have no rights to the characters, just the right to market the movie, and it explicitly states no video games, and hbs battletech and mwo are video games.

so they admit not having the rights to the characters AND no rights to a video game version of macross. and harmoney gold is giving the courts this. it seems to directly contradict what theyve been saying about their rights and everything. it does say it expires in 5 years unless resigned, but they wouldnt have entered it as evidence if it wasnt still valid right?

[Exilyth]

Just out of curiosity: Of course everyone is handing around certified copies - but how is the primary source, e.g. a license agreement, proven to be the original?

[Alan Davion]

naterist, on 03 May 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

https://www.courtlis...42820.122.1.pdf

harmoney golds exhibit A in there reply to pgis reply to harmoney golds reply to pgis request for summary judgement.

this is the liscensing agreement between tatsunoko and harmoney gold dated to march 22 2012, and it says this is the current contract, and all other contracts are null and void and this is the only one that counts.

it says that hg has the merchandising rights to macross, and thats it. also denies hg the rights to any video game adaptations. this seems like a smoking gun against HG that says they have no rights to the characters, just the right to market the movie, and it explicitly states no video games, and hbs battletech and mwo are video games.

so they admit not having the rights to the characters AND no rights to a video game version of macross. and harmoney gold is giving the courts this. it seems to directly contradict what theyve been saying about their rights and everything. it does say it expires in 5 years unless resigned, but they wouldnt have entered it as evidence if it wasnt still valid right?

The contract should have expired last year then, and clearly that isn't the case as last we'd heard HG has their "license" until sometime in 2021.

[FireStoat]

Thanks for the update. I'm not jumping to conclusions, but I'm starting to feel pretty optimistic about how this is going to pan out after seeing that pdf. HG might be able to draw things out but I'm really having a hard time seeing a point to it. In other news, HBS Battletech is great but omg, the lack of the Unseen is just painful. I don't WANT an Onion in my lance as a heavy mech. I mean it works, it's nice and all, but it's not a WHM-6R or a MAD-3R, you know?

Edit - for the folks who work with the law as their profession - a small question. The original deal with PGI's motion for summary judgement was that HG never had the legal rights for the models in question. The burden of showing proof that would be recognized by the US court that they actually had such rights under contract from the owner of the material that could grant them was the big issue. Tatsunoko claims he had such ownership to turn around and make a deal with HG, but we still haven't SEEN that proof of what Tatsunoko had to work with, outside of simple Movie / Media rights and distribution.

Did the Pdf file of the contract clear any of that up? Because to me it just looks like Tatsunoko making a deal with HG on a certain date with terms and conditions, but does absolutely nothing to establish Tatsunoko's ability of ownership to even make that deal.

Edited by FireStoat, 03 May 2018 - 04:08 PM.

[Exilyth]

Alan Davion, on 03 May 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

The contract should have expired last year then, and clearly that isn't the case as last we'd heard HG has their "license" until sometime in 2021.

Just a thought - what if HG doesn't have any other contract?

[evilauthor]

Exilyth, on 03 May 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Just a thought - what if HG doesn't have any other contract?

Then they likely lose full stop. Their case gets dismissed, likely with prejudice, meaning they can never ever sue ANYONE for infringing Macross copyrights unless the actual owner of the copyrights licenses it to them. Which given the history of HG with The Tatsunoko and Big West, won't happen on this side of the heat death of the universe.

IOW, if and when HG's case gets dismissed with prejudice, PGI and HBS will finally be able to go whole hog on churning out Unseen models for their games and not have to worry about HG suing them. For that matter, we might get more mech movies and TV shows with completely unrelated IPs for the same reason.

Oh, and HG's current crop of lawyers might get fined for wasting the court's time with a frivolous lawsuit.

[Sereglach]

naterist, on 03 May 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

https://www.courtlis...42820.122.1.pdf

harmoney golds exhibit A in there reply to pgis reply to harmoney golds reply to pgis request for summary judgement.

this is the liscensing agreement between tatsunoko and harmoney gold dated to march 22 2012, and it says this is the current contract, and all other contracts are null and void and this is the only one that counts.

it says that hg has the merchandising rights to macross, and thats it. also denies hg the rights to any video game adaptations. this seems like a smoking gun against HG that says they have no rights to the characters, just the right to market the movie, and it explicitly states no video games, and hbs battletech and mwo are video games.

so they admit not having the rights to the characters AND no rights to a video game version of macross. and harmoney gold is giving the courts this. it seems to directly contradict what theyve been saying about their rights and everything. it does say it expires in 5 years unless resigned, but they wouldnt have entered it as evidence if it wasnt still valid right?

Not a Lawyer, not legal advice, yada yada yackety schmackety. . .

Seems to me that their "argument" would be that they're trying to use section 4.i. "Merchandising Rights" to say that they have rights to the characters. However, that's not what it says. It just says that they're allowed to "make items in or emblazoned with the image or characters appearing in the program".

Put plainly, that's EXACTLY what PGI's pushing a point over them not having the rights to the characters in the DC vs. WB case as an example: wherein just because they can make a movie with the Batmobile in it or sell a movie based toy of the Batmobile doesn't give them the rights to the Batmobile concept itself to claim as theirs . . . it still belongs to DC or, in this case, the Macross characters still belong to Big West despite HG having some merchandising rights licensed from Tatsunoko.

So . . . yeah . . . it seriously looks like Harmony Gold shot themselves in the foot with this. It makes you wonder if the judge actually demanded whatever was the most up-to-date copy of the contract to go along with the litigation documents. Regardless, from everything I'm seeing and reading PGI's got their ducks in a row and HG is hopefully about to be up defecation creek without any sort of paddle . . . or possibly even canoe if the judge follows through with the Rule 11 threat (one can hope, anyway).

[Imperius]

RULE 11

Edited by Imperius, 03 May 2018 - 05:35 PM.

[Metus regem]

Imperius, on 03 May 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

RULE 11

If we are lucky it'll be much worse...

[evilauthor]

Imperius, on 03 May 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

RULE 11

Remind me, what's that one again?

[DFM]

I keep seeing people say, BW ordered tatsunoko to have HG sue on their behalf. HG has even said this.

What HG hasn't provided is PROOF of that. Oh they've said a bunch, quite literally, "She-said,He-said,They-said" or I'm HG's lawyer, and their lawyer told me that they told them that.

evilauthor, on 03 May 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

Remind me, what's that one again?

Google-fu is weak in this one, yes...

SANCTIONS, RULE 11. Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11 provides that a district court may sanction attorneys or parties who submit pleadings for an improper purpose or that contain frivolous arguments or arguments that have no evidentiary support. Rule 11

[Valdarion Silarius]

evilauthor, on 03 May 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

Remind me, what's that one again?

It was a warning slapped against Harmony Gold if the court discovers that they are wasting everyone's time here (aka being frivolous as DFM mentioned above). They were slapped by it during the beginning (which was unusual according to Leonard French and a few other lawyers analyzing this case); A penalty in which Harmony Gold would have to pay the court (and I think the defendants but I could be wrong) with additional fees if it turns out that they don't have a standing case.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 03 May 2018 - 06:33 PM.

[Metus regem]

evilauthor, on 03 May 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

Remind me, what's that one again?

Lawyer is fined for wasting the court's time with frivolous lawsuits.

[evilauthor]

DFM, on 03 May 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

I keep seeing people say, BW ordered tatsunoko to have HG sue on their behalf. HG has even said this.

What HG hasn't provided is PROOF of that. Oh they've said a bunch, quite literally, "She-said,He-said,They-said" or I'm HG's lawyer, and their lawyer told me that they told them that.

IIRC, Big West ordered HG to sue someone - some Brazilians making a Robotech fan movie I think - once and only for that specific case. Which is a far cry from giving HG carte blanche to sue anyone and everyone HG feels like in Big West's name.

Quote

Google-fu is weak in this one, yes...

Eh, I'm lazy. I didn't want to look it up.