1809 replies to this topic

[UnofficialOperator]

How about totally new designs?

[RussianWolf]

Sereglach, on 21 June 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

There's one HUGE flaw in this logic that has been pointed out multiple times now. IF there was an actual settlement document (sealed record or not) then the docket to dismiss the case would say "in pursuant of agreed upon settlement" or other such similar legalese. That is NOT there in the court docket.

Therefore, if there was any sort of agreement, it was likely the agreement that everyone would just eat their own legal costs. PGI certainly had the evidence to take HG to task and utterly trounce them in court (or get their motion to dismiss with prejudice); and then demand compensation and legal fees among the judges awards (not to mention whatever penalties the judge decided to throw at HG given the Rule 11 threats). However, that would take a great deal of more resources and time to be expended upfront, when all PGI wants to do is reimagine the classics and have HG stay out of it.

The language of the court docket and the official announcement from Russ prove that it's very clearly a win for PGI and Battletech as a whole.

The case against CGL, via their parent company IMR, being dropped with prejudice -in order to prevent confusion- is telling as well. HG was, in fact, going after CGL for all of their reimagined classics . . . and they had done pretty much all of them by the time the lawsuit hit. Therefore HG basically admitted -in order to prevent confusion- that they're not going to go after the Battletech IP for any reimagined classics in the future. That, in turn, makes this a HUGE win for the whole Battletech IP.

I'm going to guess that you do not work with things like this in your day job.

The "Settlement" document is sealed. What has to be made public is what was made public, a "stipulation to dismiss". It basically means we made an agreement and would like to remove the case from the court. The agreement is the settlement and only the judge and the parties will ever know what is in it since it is sealed.

Having seen many of these in the works. No way does HG agree to "with prejudice" without getting paid substantially. No way does PGI agree to dismiss if they felt they could easily win.

Likely PGI paid HG because they felt that they would hemorrhage too much money in the effort (how most of these cases are actually resolved, with the winner being the one with deeper pockets). HG ARE attorneys if I'm understanding correctly, so it costs them nothing in reality to pursue.

Some easy reading. https://legaldiction...et/stipulation/

[Dee Eight]

Chados, on 22 June 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

It’s not carte blanche to use all the Unseen across the board, unless that too is a part of the agreement we don’t know about. And we won’t know that for some time yet. The Incubus may be an indication or it may not. If you see the Longbow, Wasp, or Stinger suddenly in MWO or in MW5 demos, you’ll know.

The incubus has ZERO to do with the lawsuit or HG nor do a whole host of other "unseen" mechs. They were declared unseen by FASA because they wished to avoid future lawsuits brought forwards by other artists who'd done artwork they'd used, even if they'd originally paid them for the work as outside contractors (as were all the VMI mechs in the 3055 TRO). The unseens thus included all the dougram and crusher joe derived mechs and aerospace fighters originally...which included the battlemaster, wolverine, shadow hawk, griffin, thunderbolt, locust, etc... and they've all been in this game for years before the "alpha" lance appearance.


The original longbow artwork was essentially the Phalanx ground combat robot from SDF:Macross, and the wasp & stinger were different valkyrie models...again from SDF:Macross. If we get them, they'll be re-done artwork produced inhouse by PGI artists, same as the Phoenix hawk and Alpha lance mechs were. But in all likelihood... the stinger and wasp won't be seen for years as we only just got the flea (only the second 20 ton IS mech and third 20 ton mech at all) and they really won't do anything better than players can accomplish in the other three 20 ton mechs except for having jump jets.

Edited by Dee Eight, 22 June 2018 - 08:38 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

RussianWolf, on 22 June 2018 - 07:48 AM, said:

I'm going to guess that you do not work with things like this in your day job.

The "Settlement" document is sealed. What has to be made public is what was made public, a "stipulation to dismiss". It basically means we made an agreement and would like to remove the case from the court. The agreement is the settlement and only the judge and the parties will ever know what is in it since it is sealed.

Having seen many of these in the works. No way does HG agree to "with prejudice" without getting paid substantially. No way does PGI agree to dismiss if they felt they could easily win.

Likely PGI paid HG because they felt that they would hemorrhage too much money in the effort (how most of these cases are actually resolved, with the winner being the one with deeper pockets). HG ARE attorneys if I'm understanding correctly, so it costs them nothing in reality to pursue.

Some easy reading. https://legaldiction...et/stipulation/

If the case was really in favor for HG that PGI would had to pay HG a lot..... no way, really no way HG would let CL go like this.


No. F***ing. Way.


Because HG got default judgement on CL. It seems a lot of people have forgotten about this fact already.

I was actually really afraid that CL may never be able to publish these reseen mechs again and/or in financial trouble because of the default judgement. PGI could settle, but CL even did not have that option.


I thought the most realistic result, after learning about the fact that PGI and HG are in process of settlement, would be something like PGI and HG settled, and it would be still going on for HG vs CL regarding damage claims, but it is far better than that. Even Russ said it was very good conclusion in his twitter.



That said, honorable judge Zilly signed the stipulation and closed this case. Pacer says the case is now terminated. It's officially over.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 22 June 2018 - 10:06 AM.

[RussianWolf]

The Lighthouse, on 22 June 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

If the case was really in favor for HG that PGI would had to pay HG a lot..... no way, really no way HG would let CL go like this.


No. F***ing. Way.


Because HG got default judgement on CL. It seems a lot of people have forgotten about this fact already.

I was actually really afraid that CL may never be able to publish these reseen mechs again and/or in financial trouble because of the default judgement. PGI could settle, but CL even did not have that option.


I thought the most realistic result, after learning about the fact that PGI and HG are in process of settlement, would be something like PGI and HG settled, and it would be still going on for HG vs CL regarding damage claims, but it is far better than that. Even Russ said it was very good conclusion in his twitter.



That said, honorable judge Zilly signed the stipulation and closed this case. Pacer says the case is now terminated. It's officially over.

I'll stick by my assessment given the number of these things that have crossed my desk.

I can't change how you feel, but you would be surprised at how many "people on the right" pay significant money to the "sharks".

[The Lighthouse]

RussianWolf, on 22 June 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

I'll stick by my assessment given the number of these things that have crossed my desk.

I can't change how you feel, but you would be surprised at how many "people on the right" pay significant money to the "sharks".

Oh, I have no illusion. I said in this very same thread...

The Lighthouse, on 14 May 2018 - 09:47 PM, said:

In America, those who have deepest pockets are the ones who can claim innocent. Expect this thing drags for a long time if the judge does not dismiss this lawsuit by June.

I understand quite a lot of people are behind bars only because they made terrible mistake of believing public defenders would 'defend' them and/or they had no money to avoid such fate, or sacrificial lambs for ambitious DAs who want to be seen as 'tough' for re-election.
But I guess these are for another story for other proper internet forums.


I didn't make the guess according to my feeling. I would had made same conclusion like yours if there was no mention of Catalyst Labs. That said, outlook was not very bright when I heard PGI and HG were in process of making settlement. I was actually surprised when I read the court document.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 22 June 2018 - 11:16 AM.

[RussianWolf]

The Lighthouse, on 22 June 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

Oh, I have no illusion. I said in this very same thread...




I understand quite a lot of people are behind bars only because they made terrible mistake of believing public defenders would 'defend' them and/or they had no money to avoid such fate, or sacrificial lambs for ambitious DAs who want to be seen as 'tough' for re-election.
But I guess these are for another story for other proper internet forums.


I didn't make the guess according to my feeling. I would had made same conclusion like yours if there was no mention of Catalyst Labs. That said, outlook was not very bright when I heard PGI and HG were in process of making settlement. I was actually surprised when I read the court document.

I can't say about criminal cases, all I ever see is corporate law stuff. A good thing is with the popularity of DNA testing now and cops using it to find relatives of criminals not in databases, innocent people will hopefully get a better shake going forwards.

My wager would be that CL was a party in the settlement. HG has always seemed to be about the money more than anything else, so pay them and they go away.

The big question would be, if I remember correctly, PGI approached HG back around the time of the phoenix mechs to license the unseen, but didn't like the price or some such. If that was the case, I wonder if PGI (and others) wound up paying more or less to settle this.

I will remind people that Apple computers (founded in what ,1980?) sued the Beatles record label (Apple records founded in th 60's) for use of the apple logo. They settled by saying Apple computers could use the logo for anything except music. Apple computers then came out with the ipod and itunes and when Apple records tried to enforce the agreement in court, Apple computers won. Deeper pockets as you sad. I've never purchased an Apple product since.

[C E Dwyer]

There are quite a few ways this can go.

If P.G.I had been forced to wipe the current classic's it would probably have been a total disaster, this from the wording could simply mean H.G won't continue the claim, anf won't demand the removal of them.

If this is the case, then while it might have been a tactical victory, it will have been a strategic defeat, because P.G.I won't be able to produce more classic's or sell on to H.B.S, paradox.

If P.G.I can continue to created and use the classic's in it's game, it's a draw.

If P.G.I can create and sell the assets to HBS for use in their games, only then is it a genuine victory, in all meaning of the word.


Now because the agreement is sealed, well be endlessly speculating, and damned know why, as we'll all feel the effects of it sooner or later

[Alan Davion]

RussianWolf, on 22 June 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

The big question would be, if I remember correctly, PGI approached HG back around the time of the phoenix mechs to license the unseen, but didn't like the price or some such. If that was the case, I wonder if PGI (and others) wound up paying more or less to settle this.

As I recall the Phoenix mechs, the Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, etc, were several years old by the time PGI approached HG about the Macross derived mechs. PGI tried showing HG several iterations each of mechs like the Marauder and Warhammer, but HG just continually spit in PGI's face cause they're just IP Trolls at this point.

So basically no matter what PGI did, HG would still say "F*** Off", so PGI finally said "Sod it" and started releasing the Classics, choosing I assume to be the best redesigns that Alex had done for them.

[Adridos]

Alan Davion, on 22 June 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

PGI tried showing HG several iterations each of mechs like the Marauder and Warhammer, but HG just continually spit in PGI's face cause they're just IP Trolls at this point. So basically no matter what PGI did, HG would still say "F*** Off", so PGI finally said "Sod it" and started releasing the Classics, choosing I assume to be the best redesigns that Alex had done for them.

You can look up the conversations between Bryan and a HG representative somewhere in those court documents.
Basically, PGI approached HG and asked them for a license. HG said no, because they already sublicensed the designs exclusively (which we can only assume was Palladium's license). Afterwards, Bryan sends over the concept art and asks if it's different enough. Gets shut down on the basis of them looking anything like the originals. Keep in mind PP mechs were fine with HG so it's not like they would reject everything, but it's by and large further than the XY% US sees as sufficiently distinct to be a separate work of art. PGI gives up, includes the mechs, a while goes by and the case starts.

[Horseman]

Alan Davion, on 22 June 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

As I recall the Phoenix mechs, the Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, etc, were several years old by the time PGI approached HG about the Macross derived mechs.

PGI first approached HG in December of 2011, more than a year before Phoenix launched: https://drive.google...vY3NTrym_ZvcwkQ (check the dates on earliest mails)

Edited by Horseman, 22 June 2018 - 01:13 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

RussianWolf, on 21 June 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

This doesn't mean that HG lost or that PGI won.

It means they came to an agreement about this case and the courts are allowing them to settle it themselves. HG has agreed not to file this suit again and usually that happens when they get paid. They could however file for a breach of the agreement (if PGI did something stupid that they aren't supposed to) which would have penalties that are predetermined in the agreement usually that could be just as bad or worse than what HG was after in the case.

The big thing is HG didn't lose in court so can sue the next group that comes along with similar content.

Long story short. At best PGI paid HG to allow the content.

I've seen more of these settlements than I care to recall.

Here's the issue... Battletech has, time and again, through various people, come to the table with HG and tried to hammer out a deal that would be beneficial to everyone.

The reason I see this as HG loosing and PGI winning, is because Harmony Gold said **** it, threw their hands up, and agreed to a dismissal with predjuce. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN...

This is the same Harmony Gold that PGI contacted SEVERAL TIMES to try to work out a deal, and they constantly refused to play ball.

so I don't know what happened, but it's clear to me, HG lost.

[evilauthor]

Also, if PGI does introduce the Longbow or the Crusader or any other Macross derived Unseen and HG thinks that's violating whatever agreement they made with PGI... what are they going to do about it? Try to sue again?

Because if they try that **** again, it lands them right back into the same dicey position they just got out of where they're going to have to prove they have the copyrights to these designs. Which at this point is pretty obvious to everyone involved that they don't have those copyrights, especially if the reason HG settled is to avoid having an actual judicial decision made against them.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

evilauthor, on 22 June 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

Also, if PGI does introduce the Longbow or the Crusader or any other Macross derived Unseen and HG thinks that's violating whatever agreement they made with PGI... what are they going to do about it? Try to sue again?

Because if they try that **** again, it lands them right back into the same dicey position they just got out of where they're going to have to prove they have the copyrights to these designs. Which at this point is pretty obvious to everyone involved that they don't have those copyrights, especially if the reason HG settled is to avoid having an actual judicial decision made against them.

It lands them in serious legal trouble because they made an agreement regarding the "Classic" Designs. and this suit was dismissed with Prejudice.

[Imperius]

Here I’ll end this argument here right now.

When have you ever known Russ to post “bad news”? (Don’t confuse news with ideas and remove your salt)

Right? He doesn’t if it was a “bad” outcome then Matt or Tina would have been tasked with typing out why we were losing our “unseens/classics” and how refunds or replacement mechs were going to be injected.

If HG won or “settled” anything in their favor we all know they have always gone for the route where they practically suck all the money out of the target and get the offending content removed.

TL;DR Russ doesn’t share bad news

[James The Fox Dixon]

Chados, on 22 June 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

Well, we don’t know this. We do know that PGI’s official statement confirmed a settlement, part of the terms of which allowed the Alpha Lance mechs and the Phoenix Hawk to stay in MWO. We do not know whether that was because of the strength of PGI’s litigating position or whether PGI disgorged significant profit from those mechs to mollify Harmony Gold. And the dismissal with prejudice only means that HG can’t sue PGI and CGL (notably, Jordan Weisman and Harebrained aren’t part of this settlement) for use of those specific Unseen. It’s not carte blanche to use all the Unseen across the board, unless that too is a part of the agreement we don’t know about. And we won’t know that for some time yet. The Incubus may be an indication or it may not. If you see the Longbow, Wasp, or Stinger suddenly in MWO or in MW5 demos, you’ll know.

If you read the dismissal with prejudice document it says Stipulation not settlement. If there was a settlement then the document would be named that and a clause stating it in the document itself. HG got schlonged on this and ran with its tail tucked between its legs like they did with Hasbro.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Chados, on 21 June 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

The one thing we KNOW from this is that the Marauder, Rifleman, Warhammer, Archer, and Phoenix Hawk are safe for PGI to use. As for the rest of the Unseen...who knows? If we don’t see them in an upcoming mechpack announcement, we’ll know. But overall, I’d call this a win for PGI.

HG has noting to do with Crusher Joe or Doughram and the art was removed willingly by FASA just like they did with the VMI art.

[DFM]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 22 June 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

The reason I see this as HG loosing and PGI winning, is because Harmony Gold said **** it, threw their hands up, and agreed to a dismissal with predjuce. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN...

Hehe, no that doesn't happen often with HG, they usually go round and round and round again until everyone trying to keep up with what they're claiming can barely remember who they are much less what the current issue actually is.

This right here, feels rather Jetfire(ish) to me.

Maybe it wasn't, but It certainly felt like both sides were sharpening the punji sticks and getting ready to hunker down for the long fight, then BAM! over.

The suddenness of it all, the inclusion of a defaulted party(well, more actually but does 1-10 were never filled...) in the resolution and the wordings of the statements all lead me to feel/believe that HG got it in the short hairs like they did with hasbro and went to the table to save face. And also allow them to do this again to the next ones until 2021.

[evilauthor]

DFM, on 23 June 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

The suddenness of it all, the inclusion of a defaulted party(well, more actually but does 1-10 were never filled...) in the resolution and the wordings of the statements all lead me to feel/believe that HG got it in the short hairs like they did with hasbro and went to the table to save face. And also allow them to do this again to the next ones until 2021.

Except according to the document, they can't go after the Battletech IP again no matter which company (existing or future) is using it.

Obviously, that doesn't save anyone else, but as a Battletech fan, do we care about them?

Eh, I want to see the Crusader in MWO and HBS' Battletech, if only as a test case to see how HG interprets the agreement. As others have mentioned, there's some ambiguity as to whether the current still Unseen are covered by term "Classics" in the document.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Imperius, on 23 June 2018 - 02:52 AM, said:

Here I’ll end this argument here right now.

When have you ever known Russ to post “bad news”? (Don’t confuse news with ideas and remove your salt)

Right? He doesn’t if it was a “bad” outcome then Matt or Tina would have been tasked with typing out why we were losing our “unseens/classics” and how refunds or replacement mechs were going to be injected.

If HG won or “settled” anything in their favor we all know they have always gone for the route where they practically suck all the money out of the target and get the offending content removed.

TL;DR Russ doesn’t share bad news

I don't think everyone here is complaining about the positive news that Russ shared on twitter. It's the interpretation of what he means by "classics" when he posted his tweet as in "are we getting the remaining unreleased classics since our current ones are saved, or does this agreement mean that only our current classics are saved?" Russ might be only legally allowed to reference unreleased unseens as "classics", or only the current group of mechs that we already have game hence all the confusion.

The only evidence I really see that dismisses the "current group of classic mechs in MW:O" theory is that we are getting the Incubus, which was a mech VMI created specifically for Battletech and lumped into the unseen category due to FASA's dumb *** decision making when HG went after them back in the day. So from what I'm gathering here, it seems like VMI created mechs are safe (including unused artwork), but others are expressing their concern over the Stinger/Wasp/Crusader/Longbow/etc since we are extremely limited with details and are only left with the term "classics" from Russ.

I'm just grateful that this case ended this month as opposed to dragging it out to February 2019 to get a resolution. Would it have been better to have waited and see this go to trial? I would personally say yes and no. I would have loved to see the humiliation of HG when they lost in the courtroom and rule 11 sanctions that would have been brought up against them. If whatever happened behind the scenes with the agreement includes the return of the remaining IICs in MW:O, then I couldn't be happier and more content with this resolution.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 23 June 2018 - 10:24 AM.