1809 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

Alan Davion, on 17 August 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Probably cause it's not similar enough.

Yes it has the missile pod and flood light on its shoulders, but the majority of the body is substantively different, especially the arms. The Hellbringer doesn't have long-a$$ cannon arms like the Warhammer/Tomahawk does.

It goes back to what Leonard French said about "what design elements of a mech can or cannot be copyrighted". Harmony Gold are throwing a fit over the Warhammer because it is, in some respects, almost exactly the same as the Tomahawk Destroid.

The real question is what, exactly, are they throwing a fit over? Because there are considerable differences between the two mechs that HG are conveniently glossing over in the hope that it helps prove their case of infringement.

Such as how the Warhammer(PGI version) is much wider and stockier than the Tomahawk. Not that anyone looking at those legal documents could tell, after all, they edited the Warhammer comparison image on the legal documents.

[Alan Davion]

Requiemking, on 17 August 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

Such as how the Warhammer(PGI version) is much wider and stockier than the Tomahawk. Not that anyone looking at those legal documents could tell, after all, they edited the Warhammer comparison image on the legal documents.

Well, anyone with 2 functional brain cells could tell that HG is screwing around with the images, particularly the Warhammer and Phoenix Hawk.

It's the people without said 2 functional brain cells that HG hopes to sway to their side, and it's up to PGI, HBS, CGL and Jordan Weisman to take HG to task over this shite once and for all.

Edited by Alan Davion, 17 August 2017 - 10:20 AM.

[Lykaon]

Funfact of the day.

Harmony Gold USA purchased world wide distribution rights for MACROSS from Tatsunoko.

But, The original development of Macross was through a combined effort of three Japanese companies.

Studio Nue who wrote the story and was the actual designers of the characters and theme of the original Macross including the mecha concepts.

Big West the company that supplied the funds to make Macross

And finally Tatsunoko was the animation studio.

The three Japanese companies had an agreement that Tasunoko would retain distribution rights for Macross and the first Macross series alone (there have been several other animae series derived from Macross since that Tastunoko does not retain distribution rights to those and therefore could not have sold the rights to these to Harmony Gold dispite HG claiming otherwise)

This is essentially why Japan has had a fairly steady flow of Macross derived mecha and animated movies video games and TV while the rest of the world basically has access to the paultry supply HG bearly distributes.

My person thoughts on this is why would a company be allowed a monopoly on a product hey have not touched in literal decades?

HG is lawsuit happy but produces nothing with the claimed "exclusive rights" . Essentially because HG flings lawsuits around at the slightest provocation yet does not produce related products Harmony Gold USA is directly responsible for the mecha drought in the rest of the world. HG is literally preventing the global marketing of mecha and mech related matierials outside Japan.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Lykaon, on 17 August 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

My person thoughts on this is why would a company be allowed a monopoly on a product hey have not touched in literal decades?

That's actually simple, they release enough special edition and limited release merchandise every year to keep the copyright.

That being said, as we've said again and again, their actual, LEGAL rights to the property and designs is non-existent at best, and shakey at worst.

[Maker L106]

Waiting on that PGI Lawsuit cockpit item pack... Crush this bug.

[Alan Davion]

Lykaon, on 17 August 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

HG is lawsuit happy but produces nothing with the claimed "exclusive rights" . Essentially because HG flings lawsuits around at the slightest provocation yet does not produce related products Harmony Gold USA is directly responsible for the mecha drought in the rest of the world. HG is literally preventing the global marketing of mecha and mech related matierials outside Japan.

Because it's easier to just squat on an IP, let only a select few other companies make something with it, example being Palladiium Books' Robotech P&P RPG and now Tabletop Miniatures War Game, both of which are, as far as I can tell, dead as the proverbial door nail, and have been since their inception aside from the few completely deluded fanatics who stick by PB no matter how badly they screw up everything they touch.

And then sue everyone else to try and make a little bit of quick cash over literally any perceived slight against HG as a whole, i.e. the SDCC Jetfire brouhaha a few years back.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alan Davion, on 17 August 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Because it's easier to just squat on an IP, let only a select few other companies make something with it, example being Palladiium Books' Robotech P&P RPG and now Tabletop Miniatures War Game, both of which are, as far as I can tell, dead as the proverbial door nail, and have been since their inception aside from the few completely deluded fanatics who stick by PB no matter how badly they screw up everything they touch.

And then sue everyone else to try and make a little bit of quick cash over literally any perceived slight against HG as a whole, i.e. the SDCC Jetfire brouhaha a few years back.

What's even better, is what few mini's were made out of that, were used for Battletech instead of Robotech.

[Requiemking]

Alan Davion, on 17 August 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Well, anyone with 2 functional brain cells could tell that HG is screwing around with the images, particularly the Warhammer and Phoenix Hawk.

It's the people without said 2 functional brain cells that HG hopes to sway to their side, and it's up to PGI, HBS, CGL and Jordan Weisman to take HG to task over this shite once and for all.

Well, the thing is, those people would have to be shown a side-by-side comparison of HG's edited Warhammer/Phoenix Hawk/ whatever other edited image and the original image on the MWO Store. That entails three things:

1) PGI, HBS, and CGL all being made aware of the edited images,
2) their lawyers(and consequently the Judge/Jury) being made aware of said images,
3) there being a computer/ projector so that the edited images can be put on a side-by-side comparison for everyone to see.

Edited by Requiemking, 17 August 2017 - 12:53 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

pretty sure they've been made aware of the edits.

Also, you could print the unedited images as well as the edited ones... it's not hard.

[Alan Davion]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 17 August 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

What's even better, is what few mini's were made out of that, were used for Battletech instead of Robotech.

Well they had the really super important ones to begin with in the first wave. All that were really missing are the Crusader/Armored Valk and Phoenix Hawk/Super Valk.

Here's the real kicker. PB has been stringing the backers of that game on for going on 3 years now going "we're totally working on it guys, promise, honest [Redacted]" saying they've been "getting quotes from manufacturers".

Of course we all know the real story is they have no money left and no manufacturer worth their salt will do the work for free. The problem is we just can't prove it unless someone breaks into the PB offices and steals their ledgers or whatever.

And yes, I backed that game, and I've regretted it ever since. The double crossing, lying, back stabbing peons at that company should rot in hell.

EDIT: Seriously? [Redacted] is a black list word?

Edited by McValium, 18 August 2017 - 05:13 AM.
yes it is blacklisted.

[Revis Volek]

Requiemking, on 17 August 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

Such as how the Warhammer(PGI version) is much wider and stockier than the Tomahawk. Not that anyone looking at those legal documents could tell, after all, they edited the Warhammer comparison image on the legal documents.

they make this thing, called PAPER.



I know weird right, but it works really well at showing people things be it images or words, even just nothing. Another fun fact, it comes from trees. I just love how people cant live without their computers anymore. lol.

Edited by Revis Volek, 17 August 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Revis Volek, on 17 August 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

they make this thing, called PAPER.



I know weird right, but it works really well at showing people things be it images or words, even just nothing. Another fun fact, it comes from trees. I just love how people cant live without there computers anymore. lol.

heh.

All they have to do is bring the original image on paper or on computer and completely blow out their argument. It's so easy.

[Revis Volek]

Scout Derek, on 17 August 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

heh.

All they have to do is bring the original image on paper or on computer and completely blow out their argument. It's so easy.

well the PHX pistol being cut off is very shady stuff. And once a judge or jury sees what the other hand looks like and the fact that they pulled a "oh sorry just bad crop" isnt gonna go over well IMO. Gonna shoot their cred to all hell hopefully.

[Scout Derek]

Revis Volek, on 17 August 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

well the PHX pistol being cut off is very shady stuff. And once a judge or jury sees what the other hand looks like and the fact that they pulled a "oh sorry just bad crop" isnt gonna go over well IMO. Gonna shoot their cred to all hell hopefully.

Probably. at most it'll go our way if such a scenario happens;

My uncle is a lawyer himself, Criminal Defense to be specific. He's shared a few cases for me to read before where he had won or reduced the sentence greatly simply because the accused party produced evidence or documents that had some of the original contents removed/edited , and he the original/unedited copy himself.

[TheMundaneYesYes]

After this I can not stomach looking at what little of macross and robotech I have collected so I am going to be selling off the crap asap.

[Victor Morson]

Despite people saying they changed a lot I think if PGI didn't secure the rights, they're in trouble.



Pretty sure that only one of these qualifies as a redesign and it's not the PGI one.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 August 2017 - 04:21 PM.

[Trenchbird]

Victor Morson, on 17 August 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Despite people saying they changed a lot I think if PGI didn't secure the rights, they're in trouble.



Pretty sure that only one of these qualifies as a redesign and it's not the PGI one.

Not really. It's at worst derivative artwork, which is considered legally different from the outright "Plagiarism" of the unseen. While HG's version of the mech in question hasn't really changed since release all those years ago, the MWO version is sufficiently different in appearance that they could reasonably get away with it being "Inspired by" or "Derivative of".

On that note, as has been stated around twenty times in this thread; even if HG has two feet to stand on on the differences between the similarities between the PGI Whammy and the HG Tomahawk, they still don't legitimately own the rights to the latter artwork themselves.

EDIT; On another note, you (Or whoever made this) left out some of the differences between the PGI version and the HG version. The knee structure of both is very different, with the PGI version having jutting, lower-leg attached kneecaps. The hip armor, specifically in the groin area, is also different, with the PGI version lacking the curved crotchplate. While both have antennae, the PGI version's Antennae are far lerger, and a second one is also present. The "Hunch" is more noticeably defined and curved on the HG version, and the bed upon which the cockpit rests for the HG version is noticably sunken, with the cockpit bulging past the side torsos. PGI's cockpit lies roughly even with the side torsos until the glass comes into play, and has a sharper angle and a lack of a center flat spot on the chest (The space between the bottom of the cockpit rectangle and the "Gut" semicircle).

Edited by Catten Hart, 17 August 2017 - 04:36 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Catten Hart, on 17 August 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Not really. It's at worst derivative artwork, which is considered legally different from the outright "Plagiarism" of the unseen.

The history of this matters, a lot.

If I repainted a copyrighted painting and was told that someone else had the rights, then years later repainted the same painting with minor cosmetic changes and called it the same thing as my first painting, which was absolutely based on a copyrighted work, it'd be damn hard to say "Oh well the new painting with tiny changes has nothing to do with the old painting that was based on your image directly."

The bottom line is saying that the images have changed a major amount is silly. The only chance they have is to prove HG doesn't have the ability to enforce this claim. It's not JUST that the art is similar - there's NO WAY IN HELL the Atlas claim will hold up for example - it's that it's art that is clearly derivative of the art that blatantly used the contested material.

In other words they can't say "The Warhammer has nothing to do with the Tomahawk," because it's an image that is a twist on art directly linked to the Tomahawk and even called the same thing. It's utterly impossible to deny on that front.

-

Say for example, I bought the rights to The Simpsons artwork when it started out on the Tracy Ulman show and made a character named Brad that was based on Bart. Long story short I lost the art to Bart, possibly through shady means, following The Simpsons turning into a TV show and gaining popularity. A decade later, I now draw a new Brad, which looks exactly like Bart except his wavy head was made flat and I gave him an extra finger.

I am pretty sure I'm not going to be able to claim Brad is no longer related to the original Brad or the Bart art.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 August 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[Trenchbird]

Derivative isn't that cut and dry, nor is it illegal.



This is LHOOQ. Often confused for the Mona Lisa, this entirely legal artwork is considered derivative of the original Mona Lisa, and is considered a separate entity. It is also frequently used as an example of a derivative work.

Now, while PGI's Warhammer is certainly *similar*, in a lot of ways to the Tomahawk, it's certainly got more visual overhauls than LHOOQ. There's a reason why LHOOQ is used as an example of copywrite law, specifically in the case of derivative works, and that reason is how little it actually changed from the source material; They literally just added a mustache and five letters, with five periods. Comparatively, PGI did more than just, say, put a mustache on the Mona Lisa, which is a completely legal and court-backed thing to claim as independent artwork, apparently. Instead, they took the "Mona Lisa", stripped off all the armor, filed the feet, added boxes to pretty much everywhere, buffed the chest, and added more boxes, reduced the size of the laser barrels in the torsos, flattened the side torsos (The original version of the Tomahawk also used those side torsos as the cover to missile boxes, fun fact), re-branded it the WHM Warhammer, and didn't explicitly say that it was an original idea, for or against the argument that it's a copy of the Tomahawk.

The point is, you can get away with a hell of a lot, and the Whammy gets away with at least just enough.

Edited by Catten Hart, 17 August 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Victor Morson, on 17 August 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Despite people saying they changed a lot I think if PGI didn't secure the rights, they're in trouble.



Pretty sure that only one of these qualifies as a redesign and it's not the PGI one.

I can see the differences;

The arms are changed enough; the PGI Warhammer is not now a huge barrel, it has a longer reaching component on its arms.

The shoulder launcher is now horizontal, not vertical;

The shoulder light is inwards towards the mech and not as huge or sticking outwards;

The Antenna positions are nowhere near the same position, nor are they the same size;

At most all you could say that's similar is the ridge on the lower leg (which is cutting it close at that), the cockpit, and the two-toed foot.

It's really ridiculous to be honest. It's like saying Chevy will sue GMC over similar designs, which... never happened before because it's useless.... let's be honest here, HG are trolls just looking to get some good cash out of PGI. Why would they wait so long to file an actual lawsuit? Just tell me that. Lawsuits can be easily put together, especially with Harmony Gold's amount of *ahem* fortune.... (which is probably little to none)