119 replies to this topic

[Trenchbird]

I know BoomJaegers and Similar would be unaffected by XXLs; they normally run XLs anyways, and tend to gain enough heat to worry about extra, especially if they run twin Gauss.

[Tarogato]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 July 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

XXL
Extra-Extralight Fusion Engine
Acts Much like an IS XL but has only 25% of the Weight of a Standard Engine
taking up 6Crits in each Side torso, but as IS-XL ST Destruction will Cause Death,
Experimental 3055(see Below for Stats on XXL Engine & Tonnage Per Rating)
-
But how much Tonnage will LFE save you?
Below is a List of how much Engines Weigh,
Size-............STD..............LFE...............XL.............XXL-...
100-..............1.0................0.5...............-0.5...........-1.0......
110-..............2.5................2.0................1.0.............0.5......
120-..............3.0................2.0................1.0.............0.5......
130-..............4.5................3.5................2.5.............1.5......
140-..............5.0................4.0................2.5.............2.0......
150-..............6.5................5.5................4.0.............3.0......
160-..............7.0................5.5................4.0.............3.0......
170-..............7.0................5.5................4.0.............3.0......
180-..............9.0................7.5................5.5.............4.5......
190-..............9.5................8.0................6.0.............4.5......
200-.............11.5...............9.5................7.5.............6.0......
210-.............13.0..............11.0...............8.5.............7.0......
220-.............14.0..............11.5...............9.0.............7.5......
230-.............15.5..............13.0..............10.5............8.5......
240-.............16.5..............14.0..............11.0............9.0......
250-.............18.5..............15.5..............12.5...........10.5......
260-.............19.5..............16.5..............13.0...........10.5......
270-.............20.5..............17.0..............13.5...........11.0......
280-.............22.0..............18.0..............14.0...........11.5......
290-.............23.5..............19.5..............15.0...........12.0......
300-.............25.0..............20.5..............15.5...........12.5......
310-.............27.5..............22.5..............17.5...........14.0......
320-.............29.5..............24.0..............18.5...........14.5......
330-.............31.5..............25.5..............19.5...........15.5......
340-.............34.0..............27.5..............20.5...........16.0......
350-.............36.5..............29.5..............22.0...........17.0......
360-.............40.0..............32.0..............23.5...........18.0......
370-.............43.5..............34.5..............25.5...........19.5......
380-.............48.0..............38.0..............27.5...........21.0......
390-.............53.0..............41.5..............30.0...........22.5......
400-.............59.5..............46.5..............33.5...........24.5......
(Yes these Tonnage Numbers are Correct for XXL Engines)
as per reduced shielding with the Engine, resulting in increased heat,
its labeled as having Double the Movement heat, as well as its Bulk

I can't seem to find an official resource, so calculated the XXL weights on my own, and they disagree with yours.

"" "" "" "" "" "" ""

Engine Rating

gyro weight

cockpit weight

heatsink weight

SUBTOTAL

CBT STD weight

|||

SUBTOTAL + CBT STD = MWO STD weight

SUBTOTAL + 0.25*CBT STD = MWO XXL weight

60

1

3

-8

-4

1.5

|||

-2.5

-3.5

100

1

3

-6

-2

3

|||

1

-1

105

2

3

-6

-1

3.5

|||

2.5

0

110

2

3

-6

-1

3.5

|||

2.5

0

115

2

3

-6

-1

4

|||

3

0

120

2

3

-6

-1

4

|||

3

0

125

2

3

-5

0

4

|||

4

1

130

2

3

-5

0

4.5

|||

4.5

1.5

135

2

3

-5

0

4.5

|||

4.5

1.5

140

2

3

-5

0

5

|||

5

1.5

145

2

3

-5

0

5

|||

5

1.5

150

2

3

-4

1

5.5

|||

6.5

2.5

155

2

3

-4

1

5.5

|||

6.5

2.5

160

2

3

-4

1

6

|||

7

2.5

165

2

3

-4

1

6

|||

7

2.5

170

2

3

-4

1

6

|||

7

2.5

175

2

3

-3

2

7

|||

9

4

180

2

3

-3

2

7

|||

9

4

185

2

3

-3

2

7.5

|||

9.5

4

190

2

3

-3

2

7.5

|||

9.5

4

195

2

3

-3

2

8

|||

10

4

200

2

3

-2

3

8.5

|||

11.5

5.5

205

3

3

-2

4

8.5

|||

12.5

6.5

210

3

3

-2

4

9

|||

13

6.5

215

3

3

-2

4

9.5

|||

13.5

6.5

220

3

3

-2

4

10

|||

14

6.5

225

3

3

-1

5

10

|||

15

7.5

230

3

3

-1

5

10.5

|||

15.5

8

235

3

3

-1

5

11

|||

16

8

240

3

3

-1

5

11.5

|||

16.5

8

245

3

3

-1

5

12

|||

17

8

250

3

3

0

6

12.5

|||

18.5

9.5

255

3

3

0

6

13

|||

19

9.5

260

3

3

0

6

13.5

|||

19.5

9.5

265

3

3

0

6

14

|||

20

9.5

270

3

3

0

6

14.5

|||

20.5

10

275

3

3

0

6

15.5

|||

21.5

10

280

3

3

0

6

16

|||

22

10

285

3

3

0

6

16.5

|||

22.5

10.5

290

3

3

0

6

17.5

|||

23.5

10.5

295

3

3

0

6

18

|||

24

10.5

300

3

3

0

6

19

|||

25

11

305

4

3

0

7

19.5

|||

26.5

12

310

4

3

0

7

20.5

|||

27.5

12.5

315

4

3

0

7

21.5

|||

28.5

12.5

320

4

3

0

7

22.5

|||

29.5

13

325

4

3

0

7

23.5

|||

30.5

13

330

4

3

0

7

24.5

|||

31.5

13.5

335

4

3

0

7

25.5

|||

32.5

13.5

340

4

3

0

7

27

|||

34

14

345

4

3

0

7

28.5

|||

35.5

14.5

350

4

3

0

7

29.5

|||

36.5

14.5

355

4

3

0

7

31.5

|||

38.5

15

360

4

3

0

7

33

|||

40

15.5

365

4

3

0

7

34.5

|||

41.5

16

370

4

3

0

7

36.5

|||

43.5

16.5

375

4

3

0

7

38.5

|||

45.5

17

380

4

3

0

7

41

|||

48

17.5

385

4

3

0

7

43.5

|||

50.5

18

390

4

3

0

7

46

|||

53

18.5

395

4

3

0

7

49

|||

56

19.5

400

4

3

0

7

52.5

|||

59.5

20.5

(yes, rounding XXL weight up to the nearest 0.5ton)





Uh oh. So who's right? o_0

[FupDup]

Tarogato, on 27 November 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

Uh oh. So who's right? o_0

Actually...he is. XXL engines are 1/3 of a STD's weight, not 1/4. You can check a TT mechlab program like SSW or the Sarna page that specifies the 1/3 rule (but doesn't list exact engine examples).

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[Tarogato]

FupDup, on 27 November 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Actually...he is. XXL engines are 1/3 of a STD's weight, not 1/4. You can check a TT mechlab program like SSW or the Sarna page that specifies the 1/3 rule (but doesn't list exact engine examples).

He misquoted 25% at the top of his post... it seeped into my brain, and infected muh spreadsheet.

Thanks! Numbers match perfectly now. =D





Now somebody name some MWO builds they wanna try with XXL and I can theorycraft them. =D

[Nightbird]

1/3 the weight of standard, and 5 times the cost of XL for the same rating. Super expensive. Only energy mechs with 2-3 energy weapons at most in a ST will be able to run it on the IS side.
I'd welcome it honestly, it'll help IS and allow clans to suffer ST death.

[FantasticMrDark]

Tarogato, on 27 November 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

Now somebody name some MWO builds they wanna try with XXL and I can theorycraft them. =D

Jagermechs are probably the best bet for XXL since you gotta go XL anyway so might as well double down.

What AC2, AC5, UAC2, UAC5 builds could you cobble together with it an XXL ?

[Tarogato]

Humouring my curiosity,

- ignoring resting heat capacity
- assuming typical fusion engines suffer a 0.2 heat/s dissipation penalty for movement
- assuming XXL generates double the heat of typical fusion engines (0.4 heat/s)

---

Sidegrade from XL300 to XXL300 grants you 3.0 tons to work with.
10 DHS drops from 1.7 dissipation to 1.3 dissipation.
You need to add three DHS to achieve 1.7 dissipation with XXL
XXL300 is effectively the same tonnage as XL300 to achieve the same performance.

---

Sidegrade from XL325 to XXL325 grants you 4.0 tons to work with.
" "
" "
XXL325 is effectively one ton lighter than XL325 to achieve the same performance.

---

Sidegrade from XL350 to XXL350 grants you 5.0 tons to work with.
" "
" "
XXL350 is effectively two tons lighter than XL350 to achieve the same performance.

---

XXLs lower than 300 rating grant you less than the 3 tons needed to cool them, so XLs are better.

Basically, most XXL engines are 100% useless unless,

A. your build is heat neutral, or at least heat-indifferent
B. the heat penalty for using it was drastically reduced (perhaps, made to match every other engine... )

FantasticMrDark, on 27 November 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

Jagermechs are probably the best bet for XXL since you gotta go XL anyway so might as well double down.

What AC2, AC5, UAC2, UAC5 builds could you cobble together with it an XXL ?

a Gman build, http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8cde571c85a0b7d
<XL200> 6x AC2 (5.0ton), 8+2 DHS <Endo><Ferro>
<XXL200> 6x AC2 (6.0ton), 8+2 DHS <Endo><LFerro>
<XXL210> 6x AC2 (5.0ton), 8+2 DHS <Endo><LFerro>

Less stupid build, http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ddfe809dfb037f4
<XL255> 5x AC2 (6.0ton), 12 DHS <Endo><Ferro>
<XXL290> 5x AC2 (6.0ton), 12 DHS <Endo><LFerro>

Dual gauss, http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4ed08c607998be9
<XL270> 2x Gauss (6.0ton), 10 DHS <Endo><LFerro>
<XXL300> 2x Gauss (6.0ton), 10 DHS <Endo>
<XXL270> 2x Gauss (5.0ton) + 3x ERML, 10 DHS <Endo>

AC5s (Gman build) http://mwo.smurfy-ne...045341a53bef87b
<XL225> 4x AC5 (6.5ton), 9+1 DHS <Endo>
<XXL260> 4x AC5 (6.5ton), 10 DHS <Endo>

UAC5s http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f9963e74a1d7eb3
<XL270> 3x UAC5 (7.0ton), 12 DHS <Endo>
<XXL300> 3x UAC5 (7.0ton), 12 DHS <Endo>
<XXL260> 2x UAC5 (4.0ton) + 2x UAC2 (3.0ton), 10 DHS <Endo>

UAC2s http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4da7980165af607
<XL255> 4x UAC2 (7.0ton), 12 DHS <Endo>
<XXL295> 4x UAC2 (7.0ton), 12 DHS <Endo>
<XXL285> 4x UAC2 (7.0ton), 13 DHS <Endo> ---extra stripping--- pretty much the only way to get 13 DHS
<XXL230> 3x AC2 (4.0ton) + 2x UAC2 (3.5ton), 10 DHS <Endo>

UAC10s http://mwo.smurfy-ne...551104bb7cc094a
<XL300> 2x UAC10 (5.5ton), 13 DHS <Endo><LFerro>
<XXL300> 2x UAC5 (5.0ton) + 3x ML, 13 DHS <Endo>



I must say, I'm not impressed. Very often I end up having to drop Endo in order to take an XXL, only to realise that that Endo actually gives you more tonnage then XXL.

ACTUALLY... I can probably make a chart for that...




AHA! That's what it looks like. So the green combinations are the only ones that it's worth dropping Endo to take XXL instead. Unless... you can take... Light Ferro... gawd I would need to make another chart for that... aaaarrrghhh, okay... fine. That one's going to have to wait. I'm not doing that right now. Grumble.

Edited by Tarogato, 28 November 2017 - 04:39 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I don't think we need more engines, much more important to properly balance the existing IS engines towards the cXL.

[Khobai]

IS should not get XXL anyway

because ISXXL would make ISXL obsolete

if XXL is added it should be for clans only. so both sides have 3 engine types.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 28 November 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

IS should not get XXL anyway

because ISXXL would make ISXL obsolete

On the contrary, IS-XXL seems to have very limited application, if any at all. Examples of mechs/builds you think would use it?

[Khobai]

Quote

On the contrary, IS-XXL seems to have very limited application, if any at all. Examples of mechs/builds you think would use it?

I think most light mechs would use it since theyll have the crit slots to use both XXL and endo. XXL is still better than ferro.

I mean they dont have to implement the additional heat penalty for XXL either. So it doesnt have to be as bad as it is in tabletop.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Nightbird]

Tarogato, I'm not sure why you apply a % penality to all HS. If you lose 2 DHS when moving with regular engines, shouldn't you lose only 2 more with XXL? Even if they are true dubs, that's less than 3 external DHS lost. I do think it's only SHS level of cooling lost, so only 1.3 external DHS lost flat.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 28 November 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

I think most light mechs would use it since theyll have the crit slots to use both XXL and endo. XXL is still better than ferro.

I mean they dont have to implement the additional heat penalty for XXL either. So it doesnt have to be as bad as it is in tabletop.

Depends on how hot it is, if as hot as in tt, then no they wont use it.

Even if its just laser ams constantly running itll only be used on mg boats and there aint that many on is side.

Edited by davoodoo, 28 November 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Tarogato]

Nightbird, on 28 November 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

Tarogato, I'm not sure why you apply a % penality to all HS. If you lose 2 DHS when moving with regular engines, shouldn't you lose only 2 more with XXL? Even if they are true dubs, that's less than 3 external DHS lost. I do think it's only SHS level of cooling lost, so only 1.3 external DHS lost flat.

I ran some tests to determine how much cooling was lost. Although I admit, I only tested one mech so far. You're right, it could be a flat penalty and I just haven't uncovered it yet. The ~15% I found was equal to ~1.2 PoorDubs. It's more complicated than that, but I don't feel like getting into it right now. Need to do more tests, but it's rather time consuming. I should try SHS... and other combinations of DHS... hang on... WIP, will start now. =D



EDIT: okay, I'm back. I did more varied tests. You were right about the flat penalty instead of percentage. I've corrected my post above to factor the correct the numbers.

Engines at 100% throttle cost 0.2 heat per second, which is equivalent to one TruDub, or 1.3 PoorDubs. Well, actually it's more than 0.2 heat per second on the live game servers, because the game servers calculate heat dissipation incorrectly, and it's correct only in testing grounds right now. That's a bug I've brought up with Chris, though.

Edited by Tarogato, 28 November 2017 - 04:43 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

I don't see the XXL meshing well with 3 slot DHS and bulky equipment, while Clans would be dumb to choose side torso death.

[Nightbird]

Tarogato, on 27 November 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

aaaarrrghhh, okay... fine. That one's going to have to wait. I'm not doing that right now. Grumble.

Basically any mech that is viable today with IS-XL and has 50 engine rating to spare and don't need the slots in STs will benefit.

Ex: BLR with XL350 can go up to XXL400 for the same tonnage in engines, the 2 DHS you can't put into the STs anymore gets moved into the engine. Victors with XL325 can go up to XXL375.

XXL can also trade out Endo in rare cases where the tonnage works out with a big engine and you really want the slots. I say this is rare because many mechs needs the slots in the torsos for viable builds, or would be getting back junk slots in legs, ct, head that can't be used, then it is a non-starter.

Edited by Nightbird, 28 November 2017 - 08:11 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 November 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

I don't see the XXL meshing well with 3 slot DHS and bulky equipment, while Clans would be dumb to choose side torso death.

well it would cost you the space of 2DHS(Side Torso Mounted(3Slots each)
but if you have a large engine and gain more than those 2Tons and add up an additional 50Rating you will make out,
as you wont lose space(DHS going from Side Torsos to Engine) and you end up going faster than before,
really what it adds are options, will it help every build? no, but it will help some(much like the LFE)

[ice trey]

I think it'd be a not-terribly-good idea, because most of the balancing factors are gone that differentiates it from an XL engine.

Critical hits - They pretty much don't happen. You take out a location and then anything inside goes poof. In tabletop, any hit on internals gives a pretty significant chance of knocking something out of commission. There is good reason to have the Light engines - they let mechs lose an ST without getting fragged instantly. An XXL wouldn't differ enough from XLs to give any reason to choose XL over it, in much the same way there's very few reasons to choose Single HS.

Cost - While upkeep is a big concern in tabletop, in MWO, you buy it once, and you forget it. I don't like it, but the game mechanics give you absolutely no incentives to use retrotech or limit your upgrades. I'd love it if there were some sort of bonuses to cash based on how much low-tech you use on your mechs, but people say that's bad wrong fun. As a result, once you buy your XXL engine, combined with the above, besides a little bit less crit space, there's really no negatives.

Battle Value - Having all that extra weight to spare either means you can haul some serious ascii, or bring a whole lot of armor and guns. In tabletop, every mech is given a value, according to how effective it is on the battlefield. It's not perfect, but it's a far better judge than eyeballing tonnage. It's why a stock Jagermech and a stock Catapult aren't considered "The same", or a better example, a stock Awesome 8Q and Charger 1A1. Again, not a thing in MWO. Something like it in HBS BT, but not MWO. Having the XXL might reduce the BV a bit for the fragility, but the extra speed, guns, and armour that you can bring would far outweigh it. Since MWO doesn't recognize that, again, it's "effectiveness for free", especially on lights where an XXL is WAY more tonnage and space savings than Endo or FF.

Edited by ice trey, 29 November 2017 - 05:34 AM.