119 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

davoodoo, on 28 July 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

Yes, its true, but remember that the same timber wolf wa capable of dishing out over 60 dmg and clan 100 tonners were capable of dishing out 100+

It really isnt that uncommon to have mech absolutely crippled after just one salvo against heavier enemy.

Yup, not discounting that either, but still 40 damage is nothing to just ignore when it's dealt to just two locations... It's why the Hunchback IIC is just a devastating unit, even with out double tapping, it is enough to kill or cripple anything short of a 100t mech, with the double tap, it stands a good chance to kill anything if all four shots hit.

[davoodoo]

Metus regem, on 28 July 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Yup, not discounting that either, but still 40 damage is nothing to just ignore when it's dealt to just two locations

Sure, but i was talking more about perspective than actual effectiveness.

This is also why i found it silly when ppl during ed pts said that 30 dmg is too much...and still saying that laservomit is too strong or that heat management in mwo is too lenient(thats best)

Edited by davoodoo, 28 July 2017 - 09:01 AM.

[Zergling]

C4NC3R, on 28 July 2017 - 04:48 AM, said:

VME-11A does the same due Jihad times, but with LFE400, coast less and wear 2xLPL's instead of MXPLs.
And DVS-X10 are just an riggid copy of an VME-A10(X) so called "Fast Assault Action-X" who armed with 2xHPPC+CAP and 3xLL's. And that was in 3067 already. And coast just 27.5kk C-Bills.

C4NC3R, on 28 July 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

Since CVM's... based first on Banshee's and Cyclo's appeared, there was an countermesure since Terran Hegemony... a Vampire (all kinds of VME), Pillager and Annihillator, with later adding an KingCrab to the family. Btw... VME-11A and VME-A10X actually was more than enough to track down assault based CVM's. And we not talking about ANH-6X, PLG-6R and VME-6G with Dual-HGR armament. Theese " bad boys" are the Dai-Shi eaters. Cause ST mounting allows to dual-weld HGR.

There is no such thing as VME-11A or VME-A10 in any official publication.

Edited by Zergling, 28 July 2017 - 03:26 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Zergling, on 28 July 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

There is no such thing as VME-11A or VME-A10 in any official publication.

There's a problem with Harmony Gold as far as I know so they can't publish the Vampire LAM.

[Zergling]

Hit the Deck, on 28 July 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

There's a problem with Harmony Gold as far as I know so they can't publish the Vampire LAM.

I've never heard of it, or such problems. What's the source?

Edited by Zergling, 28 July 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[Scratx]

I know that Sarna isn't necessarily complete but the only reference to Vampire there is a Dropship. Only reference, at least on first page on Google to Vampire that isn't the dropship is a 70t mech... that someone made up and is obviously non-canon.

So, what LAM? Source?

[Hit the Deck]

Zergling, on 28 July 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

I've never heard of it, or such problems. What's the source?

Scratx, on 28 July 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

I know that Sarna isn't necessarily complete but the only reference to Vampire there is a Dropship. Only reference, at least on first page on Google to Vampire that isn't the dropship is a 70t mech... that someone made up and is obviously non-canon.

So, what LAM? Source?

I don't have any definite source but as far as I can find out, Vampire is a 100 tons Land-Air-'Mech (LAM) whose design is similar to those of Macross' variable fighters which obviously creates problems with HG.

That could be completely wrong though, so I hope C4nc3r or somebody else can fill out.

[Metus regem]

Hit the Deck, on 28 July 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

I don't have any definite source but as far as I can find out, Vampire is a 100 tons Land-Air-'Mech (LAM) whose design is similar to those of Macross' variable fighters which obviously creates problems with HG.

That could be completely wrong though, so I hope C4nc3r or somebody else can fill out.

Well I can tell you right now that 100t LAM isn't going 'fly'... all LAM's must be 55t or smaller. Even the Champion LAM prototype is tagged with 'illegal mech design'...

[Koniving]

Promessa, on 23 July 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Oh and one more thing: five times as expensive as a comparable XL engine

Please God no. Make it 50% more at most. That's just stupid.

It likely wouldn't be that expensive.

Consider:

Atlas K in MWO is 13 million.
Atlas K in Battletech is 26 million.

Of that 26 million, there's a 12 million price reduction if you simply have the XL engine replaced with a standard engine before buying it.

Meaning whatever a STD engine costs + 12 million = XL 300 cost for a 100 ton mech.

Meanwhile: Hunchback if brought up to a 300 engine before making the price comparison and then changing that to XL adds about 7 million to the cost. So 50 ton mech, almost half the cost for the same engine.

Do the same with a Jenner or Raven by pre-upgrading them to STD 300 engines and then switch to XL, you're paying less than 4.5 million extra.

(All of these prices are the number + standard engine cost = actual XL price.)

So, yeah. Imagine if our engines weren't universal like they are in MWO. Or if we paid real XL prices. Clan mechs would be unaffordable!

I doubt XXL engines would cost 5 times as much.

[Scratx]

Koniving, on 28 July 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

It likely wouldn't be that expensive.

Consider:

Atlas K in MWO is 13 million.
Atlas K in Battletech is 26 million.

Of that 26 million, there's a 12 million price reduction if you simply have the XL engine replaced with a standard engine before buying it.

Meaning whatever a STD engine costs + 12 million = XL 300 cost for a 100 ton mech.

Meanwhile: Hunchback if brought up to a 300 engine before making the price comparison and then changing that to XL adds about 7 million to the cost. So 50 ton mech, almost half the cost for the same engine.

Do the same with a Jenner or Raven by pre-upgrading them to STD 300 engines and then switch to XL, you're paying less than 4.5 million extra.

(All of these prices are the number + standard engine cost = actual XL price.)

So, yeah. Imagine if our engines weren't universal like they are in MWO. Or if we paid real XL prices. Clan mechs would be unaffordable!

I doubt XXL engines would cost 5 times as much.

I'm pretty sure the price difference has to do with a cost multiplier based on tonnage in TT mech building rules. MWO mechs don't have the multiplier because when you realise that multiplier is applied after all components are summed up... yeah, even medium lasers and stuff like that get their price upped like that. Same thing with Omnimechs, they get a 25% or so price bump just because Omnitech. IIRC the multiplier.

XL engines have the same price diff relative to standards in MWO as they have in TT, IIRC. It might just not look like it because "Engine" in MWO actually also encompasses the Gyro in the cost calculations.


Edit : In the Atlas K example, you'll notice the diff is about 100% of the MWO price. Well, IIRC 100t mechs get a x2 cost multiplier by TT mech building rules... I think it's 1.XX , XX being the tonnage, and straight up x2 if it's a 100 tonner.

Edited by Scratx, 28 July 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[Zergling]

Hit the Deck, on 28 July 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

I don't have any definite source but as far as I can find out, Vampire is a 100 tons Land-Air-'Mech (LAM) whose design is similar to those of Macross' variable fighters which obviously creates problems with HG.

That could be completely wrong though, so I hope C4nc3r or somebody else can fill out.

Catalyst has released LAM designs in recent years, so it is unlikely HG would cause any problems; they hardly have a monopoly of walking robots turning into planes afterall.

Further, the Champion LAM is specifically stated to be the heaviest LAM, and that is itself an illegal design (just a canon illegal).

I can't find any official reference to such a Vampire VME 100 ton LAM anywhere, so it is very likely to be a fan creation.


EDIT: not only that, C4NC3R is talking about the Vampire having a Light Fusion Engine, which is against design rules: LAMs can only have standard engines, standard structure and standard armour.

Edited by Zergling, 28 July 2017 - 10:51 PM.

[davoodoo]

xxl engine isnt optimal for mechs which are supposed to actually move, but it will allow you to put ridicilous amount of firepower on medium or light mech.
Imagine jenner2c with 250xxl and gauss + 2 erll.

Edited by davoodoo, 29 July 2017 - 01:11 AM.

[Zergling]

davoodoo, on 29 July 2017 - 01:10 AM, said:

Imagine jenner2c with 250xxl and gauss + 2 erll.

Unless the Jenner IIC is going to be running with zero armor, that isn't going to be possible.

Edited by Zergling, 29 July 2017 - 02:41 AM.

[davoodoo]

Zergling, on 29 July 2017 - 02:41 AM, said:

Unless the Jenner IIC is going to be running with zero armor, that isn't going to be possible.

maxed armor jenner got 26.8 tons left, lets drop 0.20 tons of armor for round 27 tons.

gauss 12, 2 tons of ammo, 2 erll 8 = 22
5 tons left for engine.

True forgot about cockpit and gyro weight, its gonna need to drop 1 erll.

[Zergling]

davoodoo, on 29 July 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

maxed armor jenner got 26.8 tons left, lets drop 0.20 tons of armor for round 27 tons.

gauss 12, 2 tons of ammo, 2 erll 8 = 22
5 tons left for engine.

True forgot about cockpit and gyro weight, its gonna need to drop 1 erll.

Your math is still off.

Look at Jenner IIC with a standard 250 engine; 8.3 tons free.

Then at the base engine weights, without heatsinks/gyro/cockpit as MWO calculates them:



Standard 250 rated engine is 12.5 tons. Divide that by 3 and round up to the nearest half-ton to get the weight of an XXL engine, which is 4.5 tons.
That's 8 tons less, so the Jenner IIC goes from 8.3 to 16.3 tons.

That is enough for a Gauss, 2 tons of ammo... and only 2.3 tons left over, not enough for even a single ER Large.

[davoodoo]

Zergling, on 29 July 2017 - 03:23 AM, said:

Your math is still off.

Look at Jenner IIC with a standard 250 engine; 8.3 tons free.

Then at the base engine weights, without heatsinks/gyro/cockpit as MWO calculates them:



Standard 250 rated engine is 12.5 tons. Divide that by 3 and round up to the nearest half-ton to get the weight of an XXL engine, which is 4.5 tons.
That's 8 tons less, so the Jenner IIC goes from 8.3 to 16.3 tons.

That is enough for a Gauss, 2 tons of ammo... and only 2.3 tons left over, not enough for even a single ER Large.

12.5x0.33=4.125 rounded down to 4.
8.5 tons less.

That gives us 17 tons of free stuff so -12 for gauss, -4 for erll, drop 1 ton of armor from head and arms, and add 2 tons of ammo.

[Zergling]

davoodoo, on 29 July 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

12.5x0.33=4.125 rounded down to 4.
8.5 tons less.

Engine weights are always rounded up to the nearest half-ton, same with structure.

Gyro weights are always rounded up to the nearest ton.

davoodoo, on 29 July 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

drop 1 ton of armor from head and arms

Jenner IIC has most of its weapons in its arms; the only variant that could run a Gauss is the Hero to be released in a few months, so it'd require one of the arms to still have armor.

If it drops all armor from one arm, and 3 points from the head, a Jenner IIC with a standard 250 has 9.0 tons free.

Plus 8 tons from changing the standard 250 for a 250XXL, it has 17.0 tons free. That is enough for a Gauss, 2 tons of ammo... and 3 tons free, still 1 ton short for an ER Large Laser.

Edited by Zergling, 29 July 2017 - 03:40 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

The Adder and Cougar can already do anemic Gauss Vomit builds.

Needs something more than just a single cERLL to accompany the Gauss in order for the XXL to be worth it.

[jss78]

They'd open up some options for heavier firepower in lights and mediums, while not affecting heavies/assaults.

Which considering the weight-class balance (and especially tendency towards heavies and assaults) might be good for the game.

Mucking around in MegaMekLab, looks like a Cicada, after throwing in XXL-320, Endo, Ferro, and max armour, would still (just) have the slots and tonnage for 3xLL and one additional heat sink. I might be interested in piloting such a robot.

Edited by jss78, 29 July 2017 - 03:48 AM.

[davoodoo]

Zergling, on 29 July 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

Jenner IIC has most of its weapons in its arms; the only variant that could run a Gauss is the Hero to be released in a few months, so it'd require one of the arms to still have armor.

If it drops all armor from one arm, and 3 points from the head, a Jenner IIC with a standard 250 has 9.0 tons free.

Plus 8 tons from changing the standard 250 for a 250XXL, it has 17.0 tons free. That is enough for a Gauss, 2 tons of ammo... and 3 tons free, still 1 ton short for an ER Large Laser.

tt doesnt have pesky hardpoint limitations though.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a3b658f2ed53036
17.5 tons
gauss -12
erll - 4
ammo -1.5(yes i dropped half ton)

in context of mwo xxl is just plain useless by mere fact of having only 0.15/s dhs.