119 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

XXL would be pointless unless omnimechs could switch engine type

[FupDup]

C4NC3R, on 24 July 2017 - 03:06 AM, said:

Fup... the problem is that you'll gonna be alive untill first shot of C-ERPPC or HPPC. Than your desired mek will go BOOOM... cause you know the rules. XXL structure strength is just 30% of an average IS XL drive, almost same as E-LAR drive. For both sides, Clan and IS.
Driving a glass cannon is kinda a dangerous you know.

MWO doesn't have engine crits, so for all intents and purposes the XXL engine has the same durability as the IS XL in this game. The main downside is heat, but a 30-ton light with a 300 engine can easily outrun nearly anything (162 kph speed before Speed Tweak, 174.1 after) to give it time to cool off.

A Wulfen with a single CERPPC and some DHS to help with heat dissipation could be a pretty fun super-zippy sniper.

[Hit the Deck]

This munchkin 'Mech uses an XXL400:



http://www.masteruni...-x10-muse-earth
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Devastator

[Khobai]

well obviously ISXL would need to survive side torso destruction to make way for ISXXL

and omnimechs would have to be able to swap engine types because none of the clan battlemechs want to use XXL, they dont need to because they can use endo/ferro. the only reason to use XXL would be on omnimechs that dont get endo/ferro and need to save weight by using an XXL.

[Baulven]

Without unlocking omnimechs I don't know of a single chassis I would use it on. The amount of space it eats is ridiculous, and most mechs I own wont be able to capitalize on the extra weight due to space restrictions.

[davoodoo]

Its not gonna work in mwo, as dhs are simply too weak to support crit loss not to mention idle and movement heat.

Only place where i can see them working is huginn which already have all weaponry it might want preset so whats extra tonnage for??

Edited by davoodoo, 24 July 2017 - 04:13 AM.

[FLG 01]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 July 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

yes looking in my TROs ect,
i found that the Earliest IS had it was 3055, as Experimental Tech,
Production Tech after 3064, when it became more of an option via Production lines,
-
Clan had access to it as Experimental tech since before the Clan Invasion,
but it didnt enter production until about into the Dark Ages 3068-78ish,

Still experimental Tech in 3067.

(IO, p.44)


However since we do have experimental Tech in game (the L-AMS; and no, don't trust Sarna on that) I would like to see the XXLs too. It would be a niche engine, but I can imagine some nice builds.
Actually, I would even support LXL and LXXL engines, although their usefulness would be minimal.

Curiously, the Large Light Fusion Engine is not experimental; it is apparently in regular production by 3067. It would be utterly useless, but still...

Lastly, Compact Engines. Very limited usefulness, to say the least, but being from 3068 it is a borderline case.

[Y E O N N E]

What even is a "Large" engine?

[R Valentine]

WTF are we gonna do with XXL engines? Now we die when we lose an arm? Please don't give PGI more ideas to **** up.

Edited by Kiran Yagami, 24 July 2017 - 06:24 AM.

[ingramli]

Kiran Yagami, on 24 July 2017 - 06:13 AM, said:

WTF are we gonna do with XXL engines? Now we die when we lose an arm? Please don't give PGI more ideas so **** up.

Lemme make a guess, once your side/center torso is open, the slots occupied by XXL engines is vulnerable to crits, if it got crit and its extra low health become zero, your mech is dead, even if the structure of that torso is still (partially) intact

[Stefan the Usurper Amaris]

Im surprised Armored Component hasnt been suggested.

[FLG 01]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 July 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

What even is a "Large" engine?

Pretty much exactly what you'd think: a larger engine with a rating greater than 400. Their weight demands are excessive. A 425 LSTD engine for example weighs 79.5 tons; the 425 LLF weighs 60 tons, the LXL 40 tons, and the LXXL 26.5 tons; a 450 is impossible on most Mechs (LSTD: 133.5 tons; LLF: 100.5; LXL: 67; LXXL: 44.5).
Since those kind of engines rarely make sense for you pretty much never see them. In MWO the LXXL could be used on some heavy Mechs like the Falconer, but even that is not terribly efficient.

So yeah, they exist, I would support them, but I would not shed a tear if PGI ignored them.

[Metus regem]

Uuggh...

XXL engines are such a bad design choice....

Hot, and I mean hot! they generate 2/4/6 heat when standing/walking/running with double JJ's heat up to 6... just for a point of referance a Standard/LFE/XL generate 0/1/2 when standing/walking/running with normal JJ heat.

They are crit hogs!
18 crits for IS mechs (6 in LT/CT/RT)
14 crits for Clan mechs (4 in LT/RT and 6 in CT)

Usually what weight is saved by going from an XL to an XXL is spend on DHS to counter the extra head generated by an XXL... Just look at a 300 XL vs a 300 XXL, the weight difference is only 3t, but you would be spending that 3t on DHS just to counter the heat from running!

Death on ST loss, for IS mechs this isn't much of a change from when running an XL engine, but for Clans this is a huge change, and not one to just be discounted out of hand... One of the biggest examples I can give for this is the Mad Cat Mk. IV, Savage Wolf.

The Savage Wolf was meant to be an upgrade over the venerable Timber Wolf, but this 'upgraded' unit gained FL armour (this is good, ignore 1 damage per 5 taken... F-U to LB cluster ammo), but she uses an XXL engine, this is a huge negative for the mech, as she dies when you can take out the ST or have a such a huge chance to crit the engine on an exposed ST as there are 4 engine crits in there. It's also massively crit starved, thanks to FL armour, Endo chassis and an XXL engine. Yes it does have a couple more DHS than a standard Timber Wolf chassis, but not enough to consider the mech an upgrade....

[Scratx]

Metus regem, on 24 July 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

Uuggh...

XXL engines are such a bad design choice....

Hot, and I mean hot! they generate 2/4/6 heat when standing/walking/running with double JJ's heat up to 6... just for a point of referance a Standard/LFE/XL generate 0/1/2 when standing/walking/running with normal JJ heat.

They are crit hogs!
18 crits for IS mechs (6 in LT/CT/RT)
14 crits for Clan mechs (4 in LT/RT and 6 in CT)

Usually what weight is saved by going from an XL to an XXL is spend on DHS to counter the extra head generated by an XXL... Just look at a 300 XL vs a 300 XXL, the weight difference is only 3t, but you would be spending that 3t on DHS just to counter the heat from running!

Death on ST loss, for IS mechs this isn't much of a change from when running an XL engine, but for Clans this is a huge change, and not one to just be discounted out of hand... One of the biggest examples I can give for this is the Mad Cat Mk. IV, Savage Wolf.

The Savage Wolf was meant to be an upgrade over the venerable Timber Wolf, but this 'upgraded' unit gained FL armour (this is good, ignore 1 damage per 5 taken... F-U to LB cluster ammo), but she uses an XXL engine, this is a huge negative for the mech, as she dies when you can take out the ST or have a such a huge chance to crit the engine on an exposed ST as there are 4 engine crits in there. It's also massively crit starved, thanks to FL armour, Endo chassis and an XXL engine. Yes it does have a couple more DHS than a standard Timber Wolf chassis, but not enough to consider the mech an upgrade....

Yup. XXL is useless. I actually made a TT unit variant of the Timber Wolf with XL and Ferro-Lamellor... that one WAS a straight upgrade, even if it lost some ordnance.. but given it could still carry around a Stormcrow's worth of guns? Not much of a loss, really.

In MWO, no clanner is going to drop cXL in favor of cXXL simply because what little weight you get back is going to get eaten by the extra heatsinks you'll need... and even if PGI drops that feature, cXXL is still worse by virtue of dying when a side torso goes pop.

It's just not worth what little weight you get to lose the ability to survive a side torso loss. Maybe light mechs could benefit... maybe... but even then it's marginal.

I'm not even touching canonical prices, those are just hilariously wrong and would kill the tech dead dead dead if PGI ever implemented them as is.

[Andi Nagasia]

FLG 01, on 24 July 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

Still experimental Tech in 3067.

(IO, p.44)


However since we do have experimental Tech in game (the L-AMS; and no, don't trust Sarna on that) I would like to see the XXLs too. It would be a niche engine, but I can imagine some nice builds.
Actually, I would even support LXL and LXXL engines, although their usefulness would be minimal.

Curiously, the Large Light Fusion Engine is not experimental; it is apparently in regular production by 3067. It would be utterly useless, but still...

Lastly, Compact Engines. Very limited usefulness, to say the least, but being from 3068 it is a borderline case.

Dam, ok ill Change the Topic to reflect this info, thanks again FLG 01,

[Snowbluff]

Well, I would like them to add the Savage Wolf because the name is awesome. The hero variant can use an XL + FL.

Also, #MadCatIII2017

[jss78]

Hit the Deck, on 24 July 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

This munchkin 'Mech uses an XXL400:



http://www.masteruni...-x10-muse-earth
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Devastator

"
Devastator DVS-X10 MUSE EARTH
IS experimental
100 tons
BV: 3,250
Cost: 131,448,667 C-bills
Source: Jihad
"

[Andi Nagasia]

could be interesting to have, would at least open up some Medium and Small IS mech Builds

[davoodoo]

jss78, on 24 July 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

"
Devastator DVS-X10 MUSE EARTH
IS experimental
100 tons
BV: 3,250
Cost: 131,448,667 C-bills
Source: Jihad
"

That i could live with but look at that...

"The MUSE EARTH Devastator carries a Heavy PPC and PPC Capacitor in each arm and a pair of Medium Variable Speed Pulse Lasers in the center torso."

ffs... so what if it can run fast with masc on when its glorified assault scout...

[Andi Nagasia]

Price would defiantly have to come done,
i dont mind spending 8,000,000(XL Cost x2) for an 250XXL,
but 24,000,000(XL Cost x6) is kinda pushing it in the grounds of Expensive,