14 replies to this topic

[Odd Thomas]

Noticed that besides the -15% UAC Jam Recovery there is a -20% UAC Jam Chance quirk.

Is this unique to the DS variant?

Thanks

[Nymh]

Yes. That 15% recovery is from your skill tree, the -20% jam chance is a base quirk on the DS. I assume they put it there in the hope that people would run something other than Gauss Vomit on their Deathstrikes.

P.S. Don't stick UACs on your DS.

[BTGbullseye]

I actually find a pair of UAC10 to be more effective than dual gauss in most combat modes... Gauss is a little better at range, but the UAC10 give much better DPS, and way more ammo. (higher number of 10-damage shots, lighter weight)

[Nymh]

That's only true if you look at the base weapon values. Yes, UAC10s save four tons and four critical slots, but they also require roughly six tons of ammo to the four of the Gauss, which cuts your savings in half right off the bat. Additionally, they generate three times as much heat (six times as much on a double-tap). On an already hot much like the DS, this reduction in heat efficiency is inadvisable, and the additional couple DHS unlocked by the freed tonnage do not make up the deficit.

In action, the UACs require considerably more "face time" to fire and the projectile velocity is less than half that of Gauss. These are both non-trivial differences, but the velocity is especially problematic because it means that outside very close ranges it becomes impossible to simultaneous lead your target for the UACs and hold your laser burn.Because you can't do both at once, you must do one after the other, which leaves you exposed to enemy fire for even longer.

The bottom line is that when considered in the context of a full build and in practical application, dual Gauss out performs UAC10s in nearly all situations on the MCII-DS. If you want UACs on the chassis, bust out the MCII-B. It's a wonderful Dakka platform.

Edited by Nymh, 02 August 2017 - 10:26 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

The charge time of the Gauss, combined with the fact that they do in fact have double the number of shots per ton compared to Gauss, and the reduced jam chance, means that if you're not the absolute best Gauss user in the game, and are halfway to 'competent' with UACs, you're likely to get better DPS with just the 2 UACs than you would with the Gauss and lasers combined. (are you going to expose yourself and hold those lasers on target for more than a second to get 22 damage +30 from Gauss that you have to wait 5 seconds to do again, or get a half-second 40-damage hit from dual UAC10 that you can do again in 2.5 seconds plus still be able to mount those lasers as a backup if you run out of ammo or need the extra oomph?)

Edited by BTGbullseye, 03 August 2017 - 01:07 AM.

[Astreon]

Nymh, on 02 August 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

If you want UACs on the chassis, bust out the MCII-B. It's a wonderful Dakka platform.

But a jam quirk looks kinda better for UACs, isn't it?
I'm currently thinking of buying KDK-3 or MC (DS or IIB)

[Seranov]

Astreon, on 08 January 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

But a jam quirk looks kinda better for UACs, isn't it?
I'm currently thinking of buying KDK-3 or MC (DS or IIB)

The B can use four UACs, where the DS can only use two. And with the way the hardpoints are set up on the DS, it's much better as a Gauss Vomit mech. Though I personally run double UAC20s on my Deathstrike, because it's fun.

[BTGbullseye]

Seranov, on 08 January 2018 - 05:28 PM, said:

And with the way the hardpoints are set up on the DS, it's much better as a Gauss Vomit mech.

And yet it has a -20% UAC Jam Chance quirk... That makes it one of the highest DPS UAC20 mechs out there.

[panzer1b]

Only time you should be using UACs on a MCII-DS is if you are for whatever reason bad with using the GR to nail a single component reliably (nothing against such players, some just dont have the skill or internet to do it). That said, dual GR is a hell of alot more effective at killing since you can instantly dump 30 points of damage to 1 spot on target, and its high velocity so even that lolcust thats running around isnt exactly gonna evade consistently. UACs are also extremely prone to jamming, and like both LBXs and ACs, spread damage naturally since its not only a projectile (need to compensate for target movement), but isnt even applying 100% of its damage in a single projectile but 3 in the case of teh 10. I have both a MCII-1, and a MCII-B, and while the B can get incredible damage numbers (over 1000 on a good game), the II-1 gets far better results since it can singlehandedly shut down 2-4 mechs with proper positioning since i can poke out of cover and nail someone for 80 alfa strike, either killing them, neutering them, or worst case opening up a component so they end up retreating and doing exactly what i want them to in a burst damage mech, hide and let me cool down for the next attack.

Finally, comparing the MCII-B and 1 models, the SUSTAINED DPS is actually not even in favor of the ballistic model. Assuming both mechs have the same engine, 1 JJ, and enough ammo to last most games, you are looking at ~14 DHS for the B's UACs, and ~17 DHS for the 1's lasers (for the sake of simplicity well assume GRs have 0 heat which isnt technically true but its almost irrelevant at 1 per gun with a low ROF). Considering the heat efficiency of the weapons and the presense of the GRs on the 1, you come to just under 9 sustained DPS on the 1, and just under 8DPS on the ballistic model. In other words, not only does the gauss vomit build offer vastly superior damage application (100% pinpoint, 30 frontloaded, 50 hitscan), but it actually can sustain fire better then the ballistic model, and its ONLY advantage is that it can do more damage in the time window that the 1 is reloading (it gets beaten in a long drawn out fight, and it gets beaten with a single exposure shot, and that assumes the mech NEVER jams at all ofc). Exception to the rule is when you select to use regular ACs instead of ultras (they run much cooler and let you exceed the sustained DPS of both builds), but at that point you are running a sustainer build that can be easily countered by proper use of cover and terrain. It can work, but its stupidly situational and imo not worth bothering...

[Q]

Nymh, on 02 August 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

<insert detailed well thought out explanation>

Where does this guy come from on his 11th post? ;D

[NRP]

Clan UACs are garbage, unless you can boat them (which the DS can't). The jam quick doesn't help nearly enough.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

BTGbullseye, on 02 August 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

The charge time of the Gauss, combined with the fact that they do in fact have double the number of shots per ton compared to Gauss, and the reduced jam chance, means that if you're not the absolute best Gauss user in the game, and are halfway to 'competent' with UACs, you're likely to get better DPS with just the 2 UACs than you would with the Gauss and lasers combined. (are you going to expose yourself and hold those lasers on target for more than a second to get 22 damage +30 from Gauss that you have to wait 5 seconds to do again, or get a half-second 40-damage hit from dual UAC10 that you can do again in 2.5 seconds plus still be able to mount those lasers as a backup if you run out of ammo or need the extra oomph?)

In general the Deathstrike's main build has 64 damage from the lasers and 30 from the gauss resulting in a 94 damage alpha strike that doesn't overheat like it would with you double tapping UAC10s.

[CFC Conky]

Dakota1000, on 12 January 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

In general the Deathstrike's main build has 64 damage from the lasers and 30 from the gauss resulting in a 94 damage alpha strike that doesn't overheat like it would with you double tapping UAC10s.

Do you have a link to that build Dakota?

Thanks!
CFC Conky

[denAirwalkerrr]

Dakota1000, on 12 January 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

In general the Deathstrike's main build has 64 damage from the lasers and 30 from the gauss resulting in a 94 damage alpha strike that doesn't overheat like it would with you double tapping UAC10s.

Or you can have 2x80 alpha without overheat if you skill it properly.

[BTGbullseye]

So many haters on the UAC20... Despite that it does better DPS inside of 400m. (I can get upwards of 160 damage using just the UAC20s in the same time it takes for those Gauss Rifles to shoot twice for 60 damage) Overheat is only a problem if you fire them simultaneously. Sure, it's a short time of facetanking, but you have 100 points of armor on the front CT, and can handle it. This still only takes it to around 60% heat on the hottest maps, leaving plenty of heat for backup 4x ERML to use while you wait for cooldown.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 12 January 2018 - 10:32 PM.