76 replies to this topic

[Honeybadgers]

Like the title implies. They fly slower than turtle intercourse, they get absolutely murdered by even the mildest AMS, the 3 and 6's basically NEVER connect, leaving you with the 9 and 12's, which are so big and bulky that the only mechs that can even use them, skirmishers, can't even fit them, the enemy can EASILY block them if they have any skill in avoiding LRM's, They are spread out in length and width giving them a pretty terrible focus of damage, the minimum range makes them almost worthless in a mech designed for their freaking ideal range, They do absolutely worthless damage at ranges over 700m to the point of making me ask why they even have a range over 600 (lore notwithstanding, these things don't fit the tabletop criteria in any way) and when they DO connect in their ideal range against an enemy that doesn't see them and can't twist away all the damage...

They do too much damage.

I've tried them everywhere, from dual 12's on a mad dog (desperately outclassed by splat, streak, and 6x LRM5's,) to quad 6's on a stormcrow (trying to replace the streaks in a mid range fighter. bad idea.) quad 6's on a UAC5/HML scorch (just never connects since you're always walking into the enemy's maw of AMS) A timber with 2 9's and a 6 (worthlessly hot since it doesn't have the critical slots to fit any heat sinks), two 3's on an arctic cheetah (hey it COULD work if the 3's didn't just get laughed at by AMS) two 6's and a 3 on a shadow cat (heavily outclassed by 3x SRM4's and 2 ERLL) 4x 9's on an ebon jag (LOLNO) 5x 3's on a linebacker hoping to get a skirmish build that can land them before being seen, absolute joke compared to PPC's or heavy/ER mediums, a 12 with 8 micro pulse on the linebacker hoping for a single skirmish cannon on a brawler, nope. 6x 3's or 4x 6's on a huntsman? go back to LRMS or splat.

a 9 on a night gyr to support twin ERML and twin UAC10? They contribute nothing.

They don't work as a boated weapon like any other missile or the new MRM. They don't worth as a support weapon like the rocket launchers or MRM's.

The only thing they have that is solid for their design is the flight arc. They can clear from the mid to top level in HPG and nail mechs up there. They work modestly in tunnels. They fire downwards decently.

But the simple fact is - they're terrible because they are the most immensely situational thing in the game. Heck, a TAG beam helps your team more. And buffing them with no other change would immediately break them because their damage in the sweet spot is just ludicrous, because when they all connect in a reasonable way, they MELT mechs.

Please, make them into something more akin to a streak MRM crossed with an LRM. Faster flight, tougher missiles, tighter spreading, no minimum range, slightly less weight, reduce the number of critical slots, and less damage. Their heat would be fine if they worked properly.

/rant.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 30 July 2017 - 01:40 PM.

[fat4eyes]

Try 2xATM12 on a Huntsman or 3xATM6 on a Shadowcat (with laser or srm backup of course). Stay near an assault and poptart ATMs at 300m. You'd be surprised how much damage you do. At those ranges you don't even need a lock, you can dumb fire your missiles and still get a decent hit, particularly against slow assaults.

Edited by fat4eyes, 30 July 2017 - 02:28 PM.

[AppleseeN]

LOL... another poor kid was bended by New Tech and came to forums to spread around his QQ, rage and salt.

ATM's are fine, if they not "fit TT" it's a TT's problem, nor NewTech or MWO's. I got MadCat-Prime with twin-ATM12 it's deal easy to poor IS b**tards taking whole armour away clearing core for couple of my HeLL's.

[AppleseeN]

fat4eyes, on 30 July 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Try 2xATM12 on a Huntsman or 3xATM6 on a Shadowcat (with laser or srm backup of course). Stay near an assault and poptart ATMs at 300m. You'd be surprised how much damage you do. At those ranges you don't even need a lock, you can dumb fire your missiles and still get a decent hit, particularly against slow assaults.

They guy just don't know how to use ATM's. I got average an 700DMG per fight using ATM's. And poor lights even with ECM just don't have a chance to escape from pair of ATM12. Just remember the 120 metres dead-range and bring heavy support weapons with ya. Like I do with 2xHeLL+3xERSL's

[J0anna]

ATM's are a hit or miss weapon. They have so many negatives, they can be used situationally, but are mostly just niche builds. You'd love to use them as backup weapons, but they are rather heavy and bulky and building a mech around them is unwise. I'm ok with the minimum range (though I wish they had left it 90 rather than 120).

1) The missiles need double the hit points they have now, ams is simply too good against them.

2) They need a bit more speed, they are useless against faster mechs who just run to cover. Nothing crazy, a bit of a boost would help.

3) If PGI wants to keep the minimum range, they should not be stream fire due to their weight and bulk. Making them fire all at once like IS LRM's would make them noticeably different from other clan missiles.

They are effectively direct fire LRM's. You need to be able to see your target, to hit it (they will hit something if you have a large height advantage though). As they exist now, I have them on one build - not that they are effective, but that they allow for a different playstyle.

[Honeybadgers]

AppleseeN, on 30 July 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

LOL... another poor kid was bended by New Tech and came to forums to spread around his QQ, rage and salt.

ATM's are fine, if they not "fit TT" it's a TT's problem, nor NewTech or MWO's. I got MadCat-Prime with twin-ATM12 it's deal easy to poor IS b**tards taking whole armour away clearing core for couple of my HeLL's.

People with attitudes like yours are pure cancer. Try being helpful instead of poisonous. Stop trying to use your internet anonymity to act like a bile spitting troll and talk like a grownup.

At tier 1, the ATM is terrible. Try it sometime. They are simply too niche for a weapon designed to be modular and general purpose. the 12 is pretty much the only one that can put its damage in, and from what I've seen in tier 1, the MKII is pretty much the only mech that can pull it off. The scorch can't even do it.

Just because it works on ONE mech does not make it a good weapon. The Mad dog cannot pull it off with two 12's.

Like I said, they do too much damage in a very narrow range of uses, which makes tuning them to do their job properly impossible.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 30 July 2017 - 03:30 PM.

[Leif Heggland]

I wish that they fully implemented them with all three ammunition types even if they don't allow in game switching.

The ER rounds should have the same flight profile as LRMs while the standard and HE rounds should keep the new flight profile. I have been using them on my 2xUAC 20 Scorch build for mid range harassing fire as I close to short range. They seem to give me ok damage in that role.

[Honeybadgers]

I just put 2x ATM12's, 2x SRM6A's, and 2x HLL's on a scorch. I walked up to the plateau of canyon network, 274 meters. only 4 mechs around an annihilator.

Fired all my ATM's and watched every single one of them blow up as it left the tube. They didn't have a kit fox, nova, or any other AMS boat. Just normal mechs with Normal AMS. it shredded every single missile of an ATM24 volley at ideal range before it even got 10 meters from my missile tubes.

Absolutely balanced. Totally fine.

[s0da72]

Sounds like it should encourage more AMS usage. Giving us paper scissor rock balance.. lol. Don't bring a AMS, suffer the ATM damage..

[IVeoRR]

I hate lrms. I've tried boating them and it's just not my playstyle cause i find myself doing what everyone hates about lurm boats: sitting in the back launching at targets that over half of the time i cant see. I'll use them as supplemental weapons after i have shot off my primary and secondary weapons and the target is trying to get away or I'm moving back to get behind cover and they'll clear it. They're also great armor softeners for targets that you can't get too that someone is holding a lock on.
Enter ATM's. This weapon system has forced me to play like a lurmer should. I want maximum damage so I'm right there in the thick of things like one should be going for that sweet spot range. I outfitted my Mad Cat Mk. II with 2 ATM 12's and 2 large pulses supplemented with 2 ER Mediums. She runs hot, but with proper management and range she melts whatever crosses my reticle.
My point: like someone above me said, take in heavy hitting primary and secondary weapons systems, (more often than not, I'm firing all 4 lasers at once) and use them to supplement. A few times I'd catch someone on the flank and rip a torso off with an alpha. Keep trying brother, I've been hating on the heavy lasers like you the ATM's but eventually I'll find a mech and loadout that's deadly.

[Steve Pryde]

Cut the range in half and remove the minimum range. Then u have a weapon system that would fit nicely between SRMs and LRMs (for Clans).

[panzer1b]

While i agree that they are very situational and one of those extremely hit or miss weapons (alongside LRMs and arguably every single weapon that cant fire past 300m), they have enough good things going for them that i nolonger am of the opinion they suck like i thought when i tried them the first time (and im T1 so if i can use them and get any sort of damage out they surely work at lower tiers).

There is no other clan missile option that can do the sort of alfa strike out of but 1 hardpoint (its 36 dmg per missile hardpoint assuming no AMS and none of the missiles eat the ground/cover), and its got decentish DPS and heat efficiency within that HE range of ~300m. While its not that useful, you can still shoot the thing and do LRM like damage up to ~500m or so, and if you are full of ammo and there are very few enemies, even firing at ER ranges is still damage even if its pitiful. Yeah its spread damage, but if you really want to go nuts you can do up to 144 alfa strike (ontop of whatever secondary weapons you are using) in a near instant. 2 salvos and almost every mech in the game is going to be crippled. This is especially true for lights and mediums, the ATMs spread is just tight enough to guarantee most of the rounds impact and no mechs below ~50t can afford to get hit by over 100 dmg nomatter how much it spreads out (and it seems notorious at legging taller mechs or anyone dumb enough to engage JJs while the missiles are incoming).

It may be niche and it has alot of weaknesses, but i would actually argue that the ATM has more or less completely obsoleted the LRM as a missile system in anything but indirect fire (and at T1 indirect fired LRMs are a utter joke unless you get narced on like polar or do something stupid). Most good LRM users are already engaging within ~500m to maximize the odds of the missiles hitting targets before they hide, and at such ranges especially if you have LOS to take advantage of artemic, ATMs are a straight upgrade for this style of play as they fly faster, hit harder, and decimate anything if you can get within 300m of it (LRMs cant do this).

Obviously ATMs will never be competitive unless they remove the min range entirely (might be a good idea to try 90m for starters), but i feel that they are in the perfect spot where they are actually fun to use, effective enough in solo play, and well, ATMs are the first time ive actually enjoyed using missiles at all (never was a fan of SRMs and couldnt get LRMs to work for me once i left T4 or so), so i think its fine.

As for builds ive had luck with, i have a timby with 6 ERMLs and a ATM-21 (a 3 a 6 and a 12, originally had a 12 and a 9 but the missile boxes up on the STs are a huge issue so i used the 3 to shove the 12 into teh CT mounts). Its got a good combo of mobility, armor, and just enough alfa strike from both weapons systems that either one can be used and still get solid damage. Mostly play it by using teh ERMLs at mid range (like any other laser vomit), and they dumping the ATMs on anything too squirly to reliably hit with lasers or within the HE range just cause they do so much damage. The other one ive had luck with is my scorch with 2 ATM-12 and 2 ATM-9 supported by either 2 ERML or 2 HML depending on my mood. I also tried ATM-48 but its too hot, too low on ammo (so low i cant afford to fire anything past 300m), and cant fit any good backup weapons (and the alfa strike of the ATM-42 is brutal as is). Its hard to use as you really need to watch your positioning (too far and you dont do good damage, too short and u are useless), but ive broken 1000 dmg multiple times with it (and thats with like 3 solo kills/kmdds alongside so its far from useless despite being less focused then direct fire weapons). Anyways, at least its "fun" to play, works at least half the time, and is a new playstyle when im bored of playing meta trash like laser/gauss vomit and am having bad luck with uac jams on my dakka builds. These are the only 2 ATM heavy mechs i play, but ive found a few other uses for them like aux weapons on my mad2c-ds as you get 2 ballistic and 2 energy hardpoints, and you simply cannot fill up 100% of the mech's tonnage unless you want to bring twice as much ammo as any normal game requires. I run 2 ATM-3s on the arm mounts for longer ranged builds since SRMs are all but useless on a gauss mech and ATMs help supplement my DPS and give me the utility of engaging squirly mechs that arent letting me get a good double gauss in their face (my aim aint bad at all but im no aimbot so hitting things like lolcusts with ERLL and gauss isnt exactly easy to pull off).

Edited by panzer1b, 30 July 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[Leone]

Honeybadgers, on 30 July 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

I just put 2x ATM12's, 2x SRM6A's, and 2x HLL's on a scorch. I walked up to the plateau of canyon network, 274 meters. only 4 mechs around an annihilator.

Fired all my ATM's and watched every single one of them blow up as it left the tube. They didn't have a kit fox, nova, or any other AMS boat. Just normal mechs with Normal AMS. it shredded every single missile of an ATM24 volley at ideal range before it even got 10 meters from my missile tubes.

Prolly had a mech behind you then, or everyone there'd brought Anti-missile Systems, since the SRMs'd've tanked the AMS for ya.

....

You did fire the srms right afore the ATMs, right?

Honeybadgers, on 30 July 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Absolutely balanced. Totally fine.

Honestly I think they're a little overpowered myself, but not so much I'd complain about 'em, or not bring 'em.

~Leone.

[Commodore Perspicuous]

ATMs need a LOT of tweaking, starting with decreasing the minimum range. I must caveat by saying that I have only been on the receiving end of ATMs, never used them myself. But I think they are a solid (not competitive) weapon system IF they are used at mid ranges. The key for me here is their flight path. I saw a lot of early complaints that they don't arc like LRMs, so it's harder to hit targets. So stop using them like LRMs. Use them as medium range streaks. They need a health increase to survive AMS and perhaps a slight speed boost, but the direct flight range already makes them harder to dodge. As long as you are using cover, you can poke these ATMs right over/around a hill/friendly metal shield and get some solid hits. Without AMS shield, a locked target in poor cover is going to eat them. Again, they aren't top-tier weapons, but they aren't (quite) trash like people are complaining.

[Jun Watarase]

Fundamentally, the problem with ATMs is the same with LRMs and streaks.

Spread damage + 1 second lockon time + negated by ECM/AMS/terrain = useful only against people standing in the open.

LRMs are actually good on maps without tall buildings/hills like polar highlands, because once someone gets a lock on you, you are eating tons of damage and your team usually doesnt have enough AMS around. ATMs cant arc that high though.

Ive tried using 2x ATM-9s and 2x ATM-12s. If someone is standing out in the open, you can deal decent damage. The problem is, if someone is out in the open long enough for you to dump ATMs on him, hes either a potatoe, trying to kill the gens while ignoring you or is going to be in your minimum range at any moment.

I've managed to kill a full hp jagermech with 2x ATM-9s, but i started firing at 500 meters or so, he had no cover at all, and almost made it into my minimum range before dying. He had no AMS and probably wasn't specced into the survival tree. In many cases, I have seen survival speced heavies/assaults simply tank enough ATMs to reach minimum range with no problems, especially if there is at least one AMS around. I have also seen mechs with no torso armor at all tank multiple volleys of ATMs without dying, partially because of spread damage.

The supposed advantage of ATMs over SRMs is longer range, as you can fire them at 500m for the same damage. In reality, someone at 500m will peek out, alpha you, then reverse behind a rock and you will not be able to do anything to him at all. You are completely impotent for most of the game because you cannot peek. SRMs at least can peek at short range. If you try to peek, you eat alphas while unable to return fire for way too many reasons.

ECM? Oops no locks LOL.

I cant remember if BAP increases lockon times too, but it can very easily prevent you from firing at all. Imagine spending 3 seconds trying to lockon to a target while he is dumping UAC rounds into you...thats pretty much a death sentence.

Honestly, they would be much better like MRMs...no locks required. The requirement to lock on renders it useless due to ECM or anyone who is smart enough to reverse behind a rock. And a single AMS should not be that effective against ATMs, especially considering that AMS overload is extremely common due to how OP the survival tree is.

[Brain Cancer]

ATMs are amazing as combination weapons with either CLRM or CSRM. Both provide enough tubes firing at the target to hose AMS in your preferred ranges, while adding a punching option you don't have otherwise.

21 ATMs might not get past AMS. If it's busy firing at the extra 30 LRMs I lobbed a second before firing the ATMs (because ghost heat), they'll be the tightly packed 42 damage to the chest I want (along with some LRM love) getting to the target.

ATMs alone are ridden rough by AMS systems. But they're wonderful companion missile systems to other missile launchers, either packing a surprise close range punch or giving you an "SRM" that can harass effectively out to 500ish meters and chase further targets if needed (though inefficiently).

Jun Watarase, on 30 July 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

Fundamentally, the problem with ATMs is the same with LRMs and streaks.

Spread damage + 1 second lockon time + negated by ECM/AMS/terrain = useful only against people standing in the open.

LRMs are actually good on maps without tall buildings/hills like polar highlands, because once someone gets a lock on you, you are eating tons of damage and your team usually doesnt have enough AMS around. ATMs cant arc that high though.

If you can't get ATMs over the hillocks in Polar, you're in a horrible place. Likewise, ATMs encourage "get your own locks", which is required to be a good LRM pilot. Full stop. Anything else is being a parastic lock-humper while firing your missiles without Artemis bonuses for maximum inaccuracy and maximum spread for worst possible damage.

[DaMuchi]

ATMS are in a very precarious position in a design stand point and only because ammo switching is impossible with the current game engine. The best solutions me and my unit can think of is either make 2 types of atm, he/std atm and std/er atm or nerf he damage and remove minimum range. Personally, I think there is no perfect solution unless ammo switching becomes available, in which it probably wi never.

[Novakaine]

[Honeybadgers]

Leone, on 30 July 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Prolly had a mech behind you then, or everyone there'd brought Anti-missile Systems, since the SRMs'd've tanked the AMS for ya.

Sorry, should have clarified. I was firing slightly over the crest (due to the 4 or so mechs around the annihilator, which a scorch shouldn't go nose to nose with, )so the SRM's weren't being fired. It was just ATM24, being absolutely obliterated.

[Lightfoot]

Yes, I find LRMs to be much more advanced than Advanced Tactical Missiles. ATMs are just a nerf bucket, so many nerfs they serve no purpose in MWO. We said as much in the Test phases, but all PGI did was drop the minimum range from 180 to 120 meters.

What would make them work was if they had range related flight profiles. I know they can't make ATM's with the 3 ammos, but they could adjust their flight path to the range they are fired from. Until they are made into something better than LRMs, I will just use LRMs.

You know what it is though? It's PGI fears about missile rants, that's what blocked MWO from actually getting ATM's.