76 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Missile warnings were put in literally because people couldn't handle THE DREADED LURMS hitting them.

and they would still exist you would just have to take AMS

[Lehmund]

Jun Watarase, on 30 July 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

Honestly, they would be much better like MRMs...no locks required. The requirement to lock on renders it useless due to ECM or anyone who is smart enough to reverse behind a rock. And a single AMS should not be that effective against ATMs, especially considering that AMS overload is extremely common due to how OP the survival tree is.

If you dumb fire them, they are like MRMs for clans with different damage amounts based on range.

[Brain Cancer]

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and they would still exist you would just have to take AMS

It'd certainly increase the odds of endless amounts of flak swatting my missiles.

[Aim64C]

Brain Cancer, on 31 July 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

If you're poking and I'm dumbfiring, it's as easy as "put crosshairs on target, pull trigger". People expect missile boats to lock and get lazy poking them, ATMs punish that. At 300m or so, you get the hits. My personal favorite was a Hunchback on Mining. He blows off my LRM arm, I proceeded to reduce his torso to internals in the trade thanks to ATMs. The second time, he didn't even get all the way around cover before half the 'Mech blew off along with most of his guns.

Given, it's treating your ATMs like you're an SRM brawler. Brawlers don't generally poke, they close and when your opponent pokes, you maul them. If you can hit with SRMs, you can hit with sweet-spot-range ATMs and insure trades hurt.

Still sounds less optimal than an SRM build or just dumb-firing LRMs for similar effect.

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ATMs are only insufficient at defeating AMS on their own. They're better at clustering hits, deal hideous damage in their short range bar, and match damage/ton of ammo for LRMs while getting more of that damage into the torso out to 500m- which is about as far as LRMs are accurate anyway. And not everyone carries AMS. Not even close.

So, the weapon system, alone, is insufficient. One of the key reasons people didn't bring AMS along is because of the ammunition being both limited and being a liability if hit. LAMS changes that. Clans get to run it with a refund of the crits for ammo (and overall reduction in tonnage) while the IS gets to run it in place of the AMS system and Ammo (provided they weren't required to be split between two sections in the original setup).

It's become quite a bit more common since the update, and not just because of ATMs.

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You only need LOS when firing, an Artemis'd flight won't decluster if you break your LOS.

Do you, or anyone else reading this, have confirmation of this?

I was always under the impression (and, from forum discussions in the past that I remember - so were many others) that the artemis bonus to grouping was lost with LOS once fired (as well as tracking bonuses and other such things).

[Brain Cancer]

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Still sounds less optimal than an SRM build or just dumb-firing LRMs for similar effect.

I can't put SRMs into a target at 500m, and LRMs don't suddenly do 50% more damage at SRM ranges.

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It's become quite a bit more common since the update, and not just because of ATMs.

Most games, I'm surprised to see 1/4 of a team using AMS. Even now. The most likely culprits are multi-AMS types that can be one-man flak batteries.

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Do you, or anyone else reading this, have confirmation of this?

I was always under the impression (and, from forum discussions in the past that I remember - so were many others) that the artemis bonus to grouping was lost with LOS once fired (as well as tracking bonuses and other such things).

I get the same clustering if I fire and stare at a target, or if I poke, shoot, and let someone else targeting it carry the lock to target. Tracking, not sure.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Unlike Obamacare, If you like your old missiles you can keep your old missiles. Since they are an addition to the game not a subtraction they take nothing away from MWO....

[Ryllen Kriel]

I was targeted in a major port city by ATMs on the aptly named Kooken's Pleasure Pit the other day and my drop zone was luckily located next to mating Chelonioidea (or sea turtles in the common vernacular).

Upon sighting them I instantly began recording their mating habits in the surf as part of an agreement between the Lyran Commonwealth and the Comstar Precentor. A healthy male sea turtle can mate effectively two times before ATMs can travel a distance of 700 metres before reaching the intended target.

Locally, I suppose you can reference the adage that "Ten ATMs in the harbor are worth two turtles in the surf."

Also it is of note that missiles are not valued on how quickly they travel, but how often they track the target. Fittingly, our drop commander suggested we "turtle" beneath the nearby loading docks.

[mogs01gt]

AppleseeN, on 30 July 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

LOL... another poor kid was bended by New Tech and came to forums to spread around his QQ, rage and salt.
ATM's are fine, if they not "fit TT" it's a TT's problem, nor NewTech or MWO's. I got MadCat-Prime with twin-ATM12 it's deal easy to poor IS b**tards taking whole armour away clearing core for couple of my HeLL's.

Yeah, you are the problem with forums. Stop posting.

ATMs have all of the same issues as LRMs and more since its less tube count with slower projectile speed. Useless weapons.

Edited by mogs01gt, 01 August 2017 - 05:22 AM.

[SmoothCriminal]

I really like them. They are situational, but then all weapons should be. Get into the 3 damage range bracket, set to chain fire and watch things melt in front of you.

Better than MRMs at least. Aside from farming damage numbers what exactly are these things good for? Slow, unguided, heavy, high crit space...

[El Bandito]

SmoothCriminal, on 01 August 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

I really like them. They are situational, but then all weapons should be. Get into the 3 damage range bracket, set to chain fire and watch things melt in front of you.

Better than MRMs at least. Aside from farming damage numbers what exactly are these things good for? Slow, unguided, heavy, high crit space...

Good for 1v1 Assault matches.

[Honeybadgers]

MechWarrior5152251, on 31 July 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

Unlike Obamacare, If you like your old missiles you can keep your old missiles. Since they are an addition to the game not a subtraction they take nothing away from MWO....

And they add jack squat.

What a worthless argument.

the problem people seem to see is that they DO work, but the problem is that they work in such an INCREDIBLY narrow range of situations (even though the whole point of the missile is versatility and a jack of all trades mentality) they shouldn't be BETTER than streaks at 120-400m and then do nothing anywhere else.

They are simply too niche to be useful and reliable in competitive play, where you need to know that your missiles are going to behave in a predictable way.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 01 August 2017 - 11:53 AM.

[Honeybadgers]

Brain Cancer, on 31 July 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I can't put SRMs into a target at 500m, and LRMs don't suddenly do 50% more damage at SRM ranges.

Do you see the point of your argument? They work in ONE situation. And they're not even very good in that situation if the enemy has any situational awareness due to missile speed and AMS

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Most games, I'm surprised to see 1/4 of a team using AMS. Even now. The most likely culprits are multi-AMS types that can be one-man flak batteries.

1/4 of a team with single unit AMS is enough to shred twin ATM12's. It shouldn't be that way. When you have a reasonable/low amount of AMS, it shouldn't completely negate a weapon. Again, you're kind of proving our points. No other missile system is as punished as ATM's by AMS. AMS should mitigate SOME, not ALL of a modest missile barrage unless you have the aforementioned flak fox or nova.

[Brain Cancer]

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Also it is of note that missiles are not valued on how quickly they travel, but how often they track the target. Fittingly, our drop commander suggested we "turtle" beneath the nearby loading docks.

One of the most satisfying salt shakings I got from my first day using ATMs was someone on Crimson QQing about how I was getting missiles to hit him (HAX!) under the docks from 400-500m away.

[Brain Cancer]

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Do you see the point of your argument? They work in ONE situation. And they're not even very good in that situation if the enemy has any situational awareness due to missile speed and AMS

One? They deliver as much punch per ton ammo as LRMs do inside ATM medium range, and more at short. I don't generally fire LRMs OR ATMs outside of that 500ish range because face it, 160 velocity missiles have trash accuracy past 600m.

Unless they're in a tight deathball with lots of AMS, I can find targets (and I'll be pumping lasers into them from my secondaries anyway), or I can just suck up the ghost heat, salvo everything at once, and trade ROF for penetration.

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1/4 of a team with single unit AMS is enough to shred twin ATM12's. It shouldn't be that way. When you have a reasonable/low amount of AMS, it shouldn't completely negate a weapon. Again, you're kind of proving our points. No other missile system is as punished as ATM's by AMS. AMS should mitigate SOME, not ALL of a modest missile barrage unless you have the aforementioned flak fox or nova.

I do agree with you- low tube count means ATMs are disproportionately degraded by AMS fire. Too much so. This doesn't mean I haven't adjusted to compensate, but it also does mean ATMs need more resistance to AMS vs. other systems.

[Weeny Machine]

Lightfoot, on 31 July 2017 - 12:03 AM, said:

Yes, I find LRMs to be much more advanced than Advanced Tactical Missiles. ATMs are just a nerf bucket, so many nerfs they serve no purpose in MWO. We said as much in the Test phases, but all PGI did was drop the minimum range from 180 to 120 meters.

What would make them work was if they had range related flight profiles. I know they can't make ATM's with the 3 ammos, but they could adjust their flight path to the range they are fired from. Until they are made into something better than LRMs, I will just use LRMs.

You know what it is though? It's PGI fears about missile rants, that's what blocked MWO from actually getting ATM's.

The problem with no min range is that it becomes a hardcounter for the light mech class.

[Gristle Missile]

At long range - LRMs are better
At med/short range - Streaks are better (and no min range)

Problem is... they try to be versatile, but just end up worse than existing weapons.

Maybe if they worked like LRMs at long range and streaks at close range and then took off min distance (but did less damage/more heat/whatever) then I might use them

[BTGbullseye]

Bush Hopper, on 01 August 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

The problem with no min range is that it becomes a hardcounter for the light mech class.

When locked on a NARCed mech at ~150m moving at 120kph across my FOV, it got hit once in the RT, twice in the RA, and 3 times in the RL, all that from a quad of ATM12's firing simultaneously... Doesn't look like a hard counter in any way to me, even at close brawling ranges. (the ATMs have the same turn rate as an LRM, and they only move 50% faster)

Edited by BTGbullseye, 02 August 2017 - 12:44 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

BTGbullseye, on 02 August 2017 - 12:43 AM, said:

When locked on a NARCed mech at ~150m moving at 120kph across my FOV, it got hit once in the RT, twice in the RA, and 3 times in the RL, all that from a quad of ATM12's firing simultaneously... Doesn't look like a hard counter in any way to me, even at close brawling ranges. (the ATMs have the same turn rate as an LRM, and they only move 50% faster)

Take a Jenner IIC. It has about 22ish arm armour. Now, the ATMs are locked and hit all if you are not a king of potatoes. Now, 2 x 12 ATMs plus some secondary weaponry and the chance of crippling the light is pretty high. And do not forget, there may be other ATM mechs nearby which adds to an umbrella which a light should not enter.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gristle Missile, on 01 August 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

At med/short range - Streaks are better (and no min range)

This is simply not true, unless you are only referring to use against lights. against anything heavier ATMs are VASTLY better than streaks, because they dont have that bone targeting feature, and will actually do mainly torso damage, especially if complemented with Tag or NARC to reduce spread.

[MischiefSC]

Quit boating them. ATMs on a mixed build are more viable - just with a minimum range they're still always going to be a scrub queue weapon.