76 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

After a bit of testing, ATMs are odd. You treat them like a SRM streak missile so never fire them above 500m. They do spread decent damage within 500m but that puts you into range of AC20s. LRMs will typically deal less total damage the faster the match ends unless your opponents just stand in the open. About the only use I can find is for those mechs that have a single missile hardpoint but with Clan mechs, that point is moot. Example would be a Thor, if you are stuck with the prime, a single ATM works great but why keep that missile pod when you can switch it for ballistics or energy.

ATMs would be great on IS mechs since somethings that 1 missile hardpoint goes over looked.

[Honeybadgers]

Brain Cancer, on 01 August 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

One? They deliver as much punch per ton ammo as LRMs do inside ATM medium range, and more at short. I don't generally fire LRMs OR ATMs outside of that 500ish range because face it, 160 velocity missiles have trash accuracy past 600m.

Unless they're in a tight deathball with lots of AMS, I can find targets (and I'll be pumping lasers into them from my secondaries anyway), or I can just suck up the ghost heat, salvo everything at once, and trade ROF for penetration.



I do agree with you- low tube count means ATMs are disproportionately degraded by AMS fire. Too much so. This doesn't mean I haven't adjusted to compensate, but it also does mean ATMs need more resistance to AMS vs. other systems.

You're still missing the point. Every time you describe a use, you're describing a round hole that you're forcing a square peg into. They aren't supposed to fill that hit and run role. We already have plenty of great weapons for that (heavy medium lasers do a phenomenal job at putting out a lot of damage on an unawares enemy)

They're supposed to be a front line weapon. We'll never see them as a true jack of all trades thing without ammo swapping, but they should be the missiles that are being fired at 300-500m as you are cresting a hill, sub and sub 300 for the meat of the brawl, with LRM's in the 400-600 range for support. They simply don't work in that role because of AMS, slow missile speed, poor spread, and a minimum range that is easy for most any mech to get inside.

Nobody is arguing that they can't do absolutely ludicrous damage. The problem is that they are FAR too situational, and don't fill that low heat void in the 0-500m range that clan mechs are seriously lacking versus the new IS tech. We have a serious void in our arsenal right now, like the IS did for so long. Difference is, the tool is already implemented that fills the gap, it just needs to be tuned to actually work.

mogs01gt, on 02 August 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

After a bit of testing, ATMs are odd. You treat them like a SRM streak missile so never fire them above 500m. They do spread decent damage within 500m but that puts you into range of AC20s. LRMs will typically deal less total damage the faster the match ends unless your opponents just stand in the open. About the only use I can find is for those mechs that have a single missile hardpoint but with Clan mechs, that point is moot. Example would be a Thor, if you are stuck with the prime, a single ATM works great but why keep that missile pod when you can switch it for ballistics or energy.

ATMs would be great on IS mechs since somethings that 1 missile hardpoint goes over looked.

You're on the right track. That's how ATM's are SUPPOSED to work. supplemental support missiles to balance out a mech's loadout. But this game really likes boating, so they are just afraid of that. They really need to just lower the sweet spot damage or simply put a hard cap of how many ATM tubes a mech can carry in each weight class in addition to proper tuning.

As it stands, on a hellbringer, you are simply not going to benefit using that missile spot when the mech just has so many more direct fire options that guarantee damage like the 4 ERLL sniper or ERML brawler.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 02 August 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

No main gun should be "supplemental". If it's "supplemental", you may as well yank the weapon and put something effective in instead.

ATMs are not "supplemental". They do maximize power per missile hardpoint, so if you want missiles on a limited chassis, there's your weapon (like MRMs for the IS chassis), but if boated, they should benefit like your ol' laservomitorium or Kodiak dakkaboat, etc. etc.

AMS is the only real broken threat to ATMs. Min range is something IS robots deal with all the time, with worse issues (LRMs) and it's always fun hugging a PPC user. They do what you do with ATMs to compensate.

Mount some close combat weapons. Even a few HML/MPL are usually plenty, I wade into my ATM sweetspot all the time and rarely get hugged, and if I do, I screwed up. ATMs are not brawlguns, but if you wanna brawl, pair them with SRMs. They're not sniperockets, but if you want to play a longer game, pair them with LRMs.

They're a sidekick weapon that covers the weak points of other Clan missiles well, but falters on their own due to AMS bullying low tube count launchers.

[Honeybadgers]

MischiefSC, on 02 August 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

Quit boating them. ATMs on a mixed build are more viable - just with a minimum range they're still always going to be a scrub queue weapon.

In other words, you're saying.

"They're fine. But they're bad and uncompetitive."

Brain Cancer, on 02 August 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

No main gun should be "supplemental". If it's "supplemental", you may as well yank the weapon and put something effective in instead.

ATMs are not "supplemental". They do maximize power per missile hardpoint, so if you want missiles on a limited chassis, there's your weapon (like MRMs for the IS chassis), but if boated, they should benefit like your ol' laservomitorium or Kodiak dakkaboat, etc. etc.

AMS is the only real broken threat to ATMs. Min range is something IS robots deal with all the time, with worse issues (LRMs) and it's always fun hugging a PPC user. They do what you do with ATMs to compensate.

Mount some close combat weapons. Even a few HML/MPL are usually plenty, I wade into my ATM sweetspot all the time and rarely get hugged, and if I do, I screwed up. ATMs are not brawlguns, but if you wanna brawl, pair them with SRMs. They're not sniperockets, but if you want to play a longer game, pair them with LRMs.

They're a sidekick weapon that covers the weak points of other Clan missiles well, but falters on their own due to AMS bullying low tube count launchers.

You're right on about how they SHOULD work. But they just don't.

The 120m is too much. I'd prefer a reverse diminish like the LRM's at under 90, but the weapon system just doesn't work in its intended role due to the atrocious missile speed (if you fire an LRM and an ATM at the same thing, they land at the same time despite the LRM taking a parabolic trajectory. That's ********.) and appalling health per missile.

There's also no reason not to fix IS missile to do damage close in like clan LRMs. But IS actually have a mid range missile that gets work done in the MRM (people are whining about them but I find them to be immensely effective on mediums as supplemental dps and as a death punch on something like a zeus or the mrm120 mauler.)

Your enemy can always dodge them if they have any situational awareness. You really don't get to "find the sweet position" in competitive play, where it's all about frontal pushes into entrenched positions. Skirmishes really don't happen much outside of potato pugs.

I argue that due to their immensely narrow scope of use, there is no PRACTICAL situation where you should bring an ATM in over an LRM. If you need to keep your distance, ~80m is hardly a difference, and you're not losing a ton of damage going from the LRM to the ATM when you've also been hurling those LRMS at the enemy on your approach and since so many more of the LRMS get through the AMS to actually damage your opponent.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 02 August 2017 - 03:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Honeybadgers, on 02 August 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

In other words, you're saying.

"They're fine. But they're bad and uncompetitive."



You're right on about how they SHOULD work. But they just don't.

The 120m is too much. I'd prefer a reverse diminish like the LRM's at under 90, but the weapon system just doesn't work in its intended role due to the atrocious missile speed (if you fire an LRM and an ATM at the same thing, they land at the same time despite the LRM taking a parabolic trajectory. That's ********.) and appalling health per missile.

There's also no reason not to fix IS missile to do damage close in like clan LRMs. But IS actually have a mid range missile that gets work done in the MRM (people are whining about them but I find them to be immensely effective on mediums as supplemental dps and as a death punch on something like a zeus or the mrm120 mauler.)

Your enemy can always dodge them if they have any situational awareness. You really don't get to "find the sweet position" in competitive play, where it's all about frontal pushes into entrenched positions. Skirmishes really don't happen much outside of potato pugs.

I argue that due to their immensely narrow scope of use, there is no PRACTICAL situation where you should bring an ATM in over an LRM. If you need to keep your distance, ~80m is hardly a difference, and you're not losing a ton of damage going from the LRM to the ATM when you've also been hurling those LRMS at the enemy on your approach and since so many more of the LRMS get through the AMS to actually damage your opponent.

They're not fine, they're bad and uncompetitive * because of minimum range 0 damage*.

If they did 1 or 1.5 from 0-120m they would be solid and potentially competitive sue to massive damage in their sweet spot and some damage out to 600m, while not totally replacing SRMs. They would make a ton of other mechs viable by giving mixed loadout energy + ballistic + missile 100+ alphas at 300m with manageable heat.

[Brain Cancer]

I've always thought there should be two damage stepdowns like the 50m ones at medium/long for ATMs at 120-70 and then 70-20.

Velocity would be nice. Heck, I wish LRMs had 200-240 velocity, and putting ATM velocity slightly below/at Streak velocity would be a moment of jubilation...but velocity is a buff both of the systems need. Shooting ATMs off where I used to lob LRMs only made this very, very obvious.

[Honeybadgers]

It really wouldn't be hard to program these tweaks. I wish PGI would do more weapon tweaking in the PTR and introduce what people are all yelling about.

And lore be damned, let IS LRM's damage mechs inside their minimum range.

[Jun Watarase]

Funfact : A UAC boat can out tank a ATM boat even in the short range bracket. And the UACs are obviously much more useful in general (while running cooler to boot).

Sad. What are these supposed to be good for again?

[Saved By The Bell]

I tried ATM for the first time on my Gargoile. Surprised at first. I am shooting so much and so low damage! The most problem, ATM doesnt avoid rocks, buildings, etc. You need to go close (under fire of hiding opponents). So SRM or MRM better. Or LRM, of course.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 01 February 2021 - 12:05 PM.

[LordNothing]

Saved By The Bell, on 01 February 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

I tried ATM for the first time. Surprised. The most problem, ATM doesnt avoid rocks, buildings, etc. You need to go close (under fire). So SRM or MRM better. Or LRM, of course.

if you can ride the peak damage bracket, they are often better than srms. also at that range dumbfiring is definately an option, just pretend its an mrm.

also its impolite to wake the dead.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 February 2021 - 12:03 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Saved By The Bell, on 01 February 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

I tried ATM for the first time on my Gargoile. Surprised at first. I am shooting so much and so low damage! The most problem, ATM doesnt avoid rocks, buildings, etc. You need to go close (under fire of hiding opponents). So SRM or MRM better. Or LRM, of course.

There is a trick with ATMs were you can throw them over obstacles. You get a lock then before firing you quickly raise your reticle over the obstacle and fire. A lot the time ATMs will fly over it and hit the target

Edited by SirSmokes, 01 February 2021 - 12:16 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

I see, Mechwarrior 2 trick.

[martian]

Saved By The Bell, on 01 February 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

I tried ATM for the first time on my Gargoile. Surprised at first. I am shooting so much and so low damage! The most problem, ATM doesnt avoid rocks, buildings, etc. You need to go close (under fire of hiding opponents). So SRM or MRM better. Or LRM, of course.

You must be close enough to the enemy 'Mech to ensure that your ATMs do the most damage. The farther you are, the less damage your ATMs do.

Edited by martian, 01 February 2021 - 02:53 PM.

[Tordin]

Well. This is the cause of not having the damage ranges split up with different ATM systems. Its all rolled into one. Maybe the speed of the missiles should be faster and faster the farther out and less damage at max range, while the max dmg range it should be slower since, well it just got launched. The missilie that is.
Getting at min range should make sure the high damage avoid AMS.

Now. I havent played for a long time, so Im not sure what have changed but well that what I remembered.

[Scout Derek]

Radar Derp, AMS, Shooting down enemy UAVs, and Hard cover are your best friends. It's time to use them, learn, and adapt, or suffer the farming of people who take advantage of those who don't know how to play.

[PocketYoda]

Then stop playing badly and use real weapons..

[Ekson Valdez]

ATM's have undergone several changes since their inception and this original thread. If you want to discuss them, please make a new topic about it.

This thread is locked.