20 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

I was testing my warhammer with heavy PPCs, and I noticed that it was VERY agile...even though i had barely any mobility quirks selected. This is very strange, as my EBJ/Mad dogs have a lot of points in the mobility tree (not to mention, having a higher top speed) but feel very sluggish.

http://i.imgur.com/Eo8xqLa.jpg

Looking at the ingame mechlab, my warhammer has a turn rate of 49.79 degrees/s and +10% turn rate from the skill tree. My mad dog has a turn rate of 60.5 and +20 turn rate. I'm not sure if the turn rates listed include the skill tree bonuses...i am pretty sure they do not, so the gap should be even larger.

Assuming the mechlab figures do not take into account skill bonuses, the warhammer should have a turn rate of 54.769 degrees/s and the mad dog should have a turn rate of 72.6 degrees per second.

I took both mechs into the testing grounds on river city, lined up the crosshair on the same window of a building, and recorded a video to see how long it would take to complete a 360 degree stationery turn.

Using freemake video converter, I was able to narrow down the timing to when i started the turn and completed the turn (by having the crosshair move over the same window). I did not move the mouse at all and just held down the keyboard key to turn.

The warhammer clocked in at roughly 5 seconds to complete the turn. That gives it an actual turn rate of roughly 72 degrees/second...this is obviously way too high for the specs listed in the mechlab. And it doesn't even make sense, since the WHM-6R has no mobility quirks.

The mad dog clocked in at 4.2 seconds, which gives it an actual turn rate of 85 degrees/second. This figure also makes no sense, but the difference between the actual turn rate and the expected turn rate is a lot less than the warhammer's.

The main issue is how is the warhammer just so agile even though its specs on paper say otherwise? All those points not going into the mobility tree can go into the survival tree which is a huge balance issue. I'm not looking at things like torso turn rate yet, just chassis turn rate. Playing my warhammer literally feels like easy mode...and im not even min-maxing pulse lasers or anything.

I uploaded the videos to vimeo :

Warhammer : https://vimeo.com/227657297

Mad dog : https://vimeo.com/227657405

You can download them and play them frame by frame if you wish. The window used as the starting point is the 9th from the left.

Edit : After some testing, it seems the mechlab figures do take into acount skill bonuses so it makes even less sense...

Edited by Jun Watarase, 30 July 2017 - 03:43 PM.

[Zoeff]

I do remember that in the skill tree update, there was also a mention of a 'hidden' agility stat that was previously a function of the engine size, could that be what you're seeing? Chris also mentioned something like this on one of the ngngtv streams but my memory is a bit fussy regarding that.

EDIT: Oh and top speed affects the turn rate as well. That probably is what you're seeing.

Edited by Zoeff, 30 July 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Zoeff, on 30 July 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

EDIT: Oh and top speed affects the turn rate as well. That probably is what you're seeing.

This could be it. There is some mechanic where if you moved at a slower speed, you actually had an increased turn rate. Not sure they demonstrated a mech turning at half throttle vs turning at full throttle and the half throttle mech turned much faster. It is possible that this might have something to do with it, probably unintentionally.

[J0anna]

Zoeff, on 30 July 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

I do remember that in the skill tree update, there was also a mention of a 'hidden' agility stat that was previously a function of the engine size, could that be what you're seeing? Chris also mentioned something like this on one of the ngngtv streams but my memory is a bit fussy regarding that.

EDIT: Oh and top speed affects the turn rate as well. That probably is what you're seeing.

Viktor Drake, on 30 July 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

This could be it. There is some mechanic where if you moved at a slower speed, you actually had an increased turn rate. Not sure they demonstrated a mech turning at half throttle vs turning at full throttle and the half throttle mech turned much faster. It is possible that this might have something to do with it, probably unintentionally.

Did either of you watch the video? Neither mech was moving, just turning. IIRC what chris said was that if you were moving faster, it would reduce your turn rate. Neither mech in the videos is moving, just spinning in place.

[Agent 0range]

This is intentional mech manouver better at low speed. There was info when the engine desync happened. Don't quote me on this but I think at walk speed around 66% of top you start to get bonuses which max out at stationary. This makes a difference when for better engine mechs, meaning they have more acc\dec and turn rate. On paper an Orion and timber are roughly the same but around 20-30 kph the timber gets more bonuses. Same goes for all mechs making high engine mechs better at peeking than the same chassis with a lower rating engine .

There should be a little graph on the mech Info window that shows the turn rate and acc\dec slowly dropping off to the base line which I assume is the stat you were using.

Edited by Agent 0range, 30 July 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Agent 0range, on 30 July 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

This is intentional mech manouver better at low speed. There was info when the engine desync happened. Don't quote me on this but I think at walk speed around 66% of top you start to get bonuses which max out at stationary. This makes a difference when for better engine mechs, meaning they have more acc\dec and turn rate. On paper an Orion and timber are roughly the same but around 20-30 kph the timber gets more bonuses. Same goes for all mechs making high engine mechs better at peeking than the same chassis with a lower rating engine .

People apparently don't read the thread responses, either...

[Athom83]

I have tested it, and those agility stats do include mobility skills.

Edited by Athom83, 30 July 2017 - 04:16 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I think the question to ask is whether or not the stats in the MechLab represent a 'Mech standing still or running.

[Agent 0range]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

People apparently don't read the thread responses, either...

So e people don't bother to try and explain what is going on either.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

I think the question to ask is whether or not the stats in the MechLab represent a 'Mech standing still or running.

Running maybe read the patch notes and look at the little graph the have put in showing turn rate increasing as you slow down.

[Y E O N N E]

Agent 0range, on 30 July 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

So e people don't bother to try and explain what is going on either.

The entire OP explains it crystal clear.

Quote

Running maybe read the patch notes and look at the little graph the have put in showing turn rate increasing as you slow down.

You don't get it. That's not the issue, especially because the OP was not even running at all.

There is a flat numerical value displayed above the graph in the MechLab, and the numbers do not line up with said graph.

Try using your brain instead of a hamster wheel. Thanks!

[Agent 0range]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

The entire OP explains it crystal clear.



You don't get it. That's not the issue, especially because the OP was not even running at all.

There is a flat numerical value displayed above the graph in the MechLab, and the numbers do not line up with said graph.

Try using your brain instead of a hamster wheel. Thanks!

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

The entire OP explains it crystal clear.



You don't get it. That's not the issue, especially because the OP was not even running at all.

There is a flat numerical value displayed above the graph in the MechLab, and the numbers do not line up with said graph.

Try using your brain instead of a hamster wheel. Thanks!

I used my brain to read the patch notes on engine desync then I used it to explain to OP that at slower speeds mech get a bonus then I explained there is a graph in the mech lab showing this. What did you use your brain for other than making puerile insults?

Edited by Agent 0range, 30 July 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

I just read up on engine desync, i guess that explains why the warhammer feels so agile compared to before now.

Still doesnt explain why the numbers in the mechlab dont match up to real turn rates though.

Also the mobility tree seems to be junk, i cant tell the difference between 15 points in it and 0 points. Not sure why my mad dog/EBJ feels so sluggish at times...maybe its faction warfare specific...

[l33tworks]

Agent 0range, on 30 July 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

I used my brain to read the patch notes on engine desync then I used it to explain to OP that at slower speeds mech get a bonus then I explained there is a graph in the mech lab showing this. What did you use your brain for other than making puerile insults?

Hahahh funny to see people completely ignore all replies except insults. THAT they understand.

HEY GUYS IKNOW THE ANSWER ITS COS THE FASTER YOU MOVE THE SLOWER THE TURN RATE.

I will completely ignore all statements that the mechs are standing still.

Edited by l33tworks, 30 July 2017 - 08:51 PM.

[Agent 0range]

l33tworks, on 30 July 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

Hahahh funny to see people completely ignore all replies except insults. THAT they understand.

HEY GUYS IKNOW THE ANSWER ITS COS THE FASTER YOU MOVE THE SLOWER THE TURN RATE.

I will completely ignore all statements that the mechs are standing still.

Standing still is a movement of 0 KPH! Zero is very slow the slowest a mech can move, the bonuses to acc\dec and turn rate don't go away at 0 they are in fact at their highest. Though obviously Dec is irrelevant at 0 KPH.

I answered the question and OP has read patch notes on engine desync and understands where the bonus comes from. The fact that people can't understand 0 can be considered a speed is their problem not mine.

Edited by Agent 0range, 30 July 2017 - 10:58 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

My guess is that the value listed must be an average. Looking at the graph, the stationary turn rate is always higher than the listed value (and we aren't given listed values on the graph).

Warhammer for instance, the max turn rate on the graph is somewhere around 60-65, however minimum turn rate is more around 25. The average between those two would probably be close to the listed 45 deg/s.

(stock)

edit: Probably turn rate at 2/3rds speed. Several mechs have their turn rate capped above there.

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 30 July 2017 - 11:14 PM.

[HGAK47]

You have those lines on the graph in the mechlab that show projected turn rates at given speeds. As your mech speed increases you lose some agility. It also shows accel and decel rates too.

However what the OP is on about is observations of stationary mechs turning compared to projected turn rates given in the mech lab.

I think PGI should have a look over agility stats again as im sure there are outliers and mechs that were made too sluggish.

[DaMuchi]

Perhaps the graph shows base turn rate while the engine size adds a.modifier which explains why the vulture turns faster than expected. Try putting an engine of equal size on the warhammer and see what happens. But that's assuming clan engines and IS engines of equal rating are actually equal and other possible hidden values are all the same.

[Zergling]

Just took my unskilled Warhammer 6R out in testing grounds, fitted it with a 340 rated engine and timed 360 turns with a stopwatch; approximately 5.5 to 5.7 seconds for a 360 degree turn, which is 63.16 to 65.45 degrees/second, much higher than the listed 45.26 listed in mechlab.

Downgraded to a 200 rated engine, same 5.5-5.7 second turn time, so it is highly doubtful engine rating is making a difference.

Edited by Zergling, 01 August 2017 - 01:47 AM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

The listed turn rate is your turn rate at 2/3rds throttle- stationary turn rates will be much higher than what is listed, although how much higher is dependent upon the chassis, as some have flatter levels of turn rate loss/gain at higher or lower speed (MCII, for instance), and some have special profiles like the Assassin, which has improved agility above 2/3rds speed (essentially no decrease in turn rate above that speed). I'm uploading a test video right now.

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 01 August 2017 - 03:13 AM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Here's my test of both the VTR-9S and ASN-21. Both mechs are skilled with 21 pts into agility.

Spoiler

As you can see by looking at the agility graphs, both have turn rates at the 2/3rds throttle mark that's very close to the listed value. The testing shows a nearly exact correlation, timing the turn by keyframing in Premier. The Victor is fairly typical, while the Assassin has an atypical amount of turn rate decay, making it suitable suitable for the test.

https://youtu.be/jPdzh3_0K_4

VTR-9S
52.94 deg/s
6.80 seconds to complete 360 degree turn

Tested 6.80 seconds to complete a 360 degree turn at 46.8 kph

ASN-21
89.87 deg/s
4.01 seconds to complete a 360 degree turn

Tested 4.01 seconds @ 81.9 kph.

There is a slight frame skip on the Victor, so the actual speed of the turn in question is probably slightly longer, but I'm also moving a little faster than the "46kph" listed. The listed speeds on the graph are rounded down (max speed on Victor is 69.7kph, Assassin is 121.9kph), so the graphs aren't particularly reliable except as a rough guide.

Because the Assassins turn rate decay is flat, or nearly flat past 2/3rds throttle, going slightly over should have little to no effect, and the test ends up exactly what you'd expect by looking at the turn rate on the paper doll.

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 01 August 2017 - 05:29 AM.