114 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Jun Watarase, on 02 August 2017 - 05:11 AM, said:

Its pretty obvious when you look at how no or few units went clan to test the new clan tech.

Some did. But that was probably more to do with the whopping 50% reward bonus on the new clans

[Shinichi Yamamoto]

Data from 6:27 pm to 6:52 pm. That is a snap shot of 25 minutes where the IS was winning more than clans did. I am sure I can find a time frame which will "proof" the exact opposite.

Also, why are you with Liao now? Are you maybe one of those nomads following the most OP mechs? Even though I have to say that we are at a pretty good state right now as far as I can tell. Plus, of course more people switched from Clan to IS than the other way around because IS has truly new tech whereas Clans only got LRM 2.0 and Lasers 2.0 as someone already stated.

[El Bandito]

Ghogiel, on 02 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

I kind of disagree. This is akin to the failing of spreadsheet warriors not understanding the live environment. If for example people are always bring WLFs to make up the IS tech base, the "math" might look ok but when like 20% of the IS mechs are made up of the weakest class in the game (though probably the 2nd most important in comp) any idea of balanced spread would be totally a red herring.

this all relies on what mechs are being brought, the game mode being played, and why, A simple even ratio of 50-50 is not much to do with faction balances imo.

50-50 per class says lot about faction balance. Of course there are variables to skew the results, such as modes but I bet when such a result happens, cross faction balance would be even better than now.

[Bud Crue]

Sjorpha, on 02 August 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

The new tech is a slight improvement, most of it isn't better than the old tech though. Balance wise I don't feel it's a huge change, and Clan vs IS power ton for ton still favors Clan quite a bit same as before.

The new tech is a lot of fun to play around with though, and it's great to have more options. FP stats show Units wanting to play around with the new stuff, units play for fun too you know.

I have sort of resigned to the fact that PGI apparently wants to keep Clan tech strictly superior, they didn't take the civil war update as an opportunity to balance the tech and I doubt they will in the future either. Seems we're stuck with strictly inferior IS equipment and unevenly distributed quirks randomly making or breaking IS chassis. It's a bit sad but I can live with it.

Also the greatest buff introduced with the new tech seems to actually be on the clan side, HLL emerging as a new enabler of huge gauss vomit alphas when paired with ERML. I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the most significant impact at the comp level, which is ironic as hell given that this update was touted as "closing the gap" and supposed to give IS a buff, and so many people including me failed to see the potential of HLL.

As an aside, do you think the HLL would be such a big deal if the gauss/PPC ghost heat nerf would not have come into being? I always have felt that the Clans near exclusive hold on superior performing (high mount) Gauss/PPC combo mechs (Kodiak, Night Gyr, etc.) accounted for a good chunk (clan XL being the most of the rest) of the perceived imbalance (only counter the IS had was ERLL spambots like the Grasshopper 5P and Battlemaster). The HLL seems to be stepping in to that newly created shortcoming on the clan side which now trades a bit of range for a longer burn/bigger damage potential for those too irritated to learn to time their gauss and ppc volleys. Anyway, just curious.

[Coolant]

I've always been of the opinion that it's the players that determine FW, not the mechs. Occam's Razor - the simplest solution is often the correct one. The simplest solution is that the best players are currently playing whoever is winning the most.

Edited by Coolant, 02 August 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Dakota1000, on 01 August 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Ok guys, here's the recent warlog in FP.




As you can see, IS has 14 wins to Clan's 4, a 3.5:1 ratio. What's the argument now for Clans being OP? Did all the skilled players move over to the side "with the better equipment"? Is CXL still too OP compared to LFE+Durability quirks? A couple tons lighter on ballistics still OP compared to more precision and higher DPS due to quirks? Heavy lasers OP with IS lasers being able to fire two times for each alpha the Clanner puts out while still generating less heat? I know you guys are mad over the 25 ton advantage per player in FW dropping to only 10 tons soon, but dang.

Maybe Clans could use some buffs now, like the speed quirk on Summoners back, or more than 60 degree torso twist on all the Kodiaks that weren't the KDK-3, some armor quirks to the Dire Wolf, or maybe small lasers that don't have the duration of IS ER large lasers.

Its pretty clear at this point that the Clans OP narrative isn't holding up to the gameplay. Even the Tukk events get explained away quite well by most high skill units stocking up on Clan side to avoid the incoming hoard of players who rarely play FW, many of which being new or low tier players who bought an IS mech because it was cheaper then never bought engine upgrades, double heat sinks, or any other good upgrades on it, then threw together a dropdeck with a couple trials and a custom in there somewhere, then they get stomped on by Clan teams running the meta.

Even the Stormcrow was kicked out of scouting because bads got rekt by streaks too often, now IS has mechs capable of oneshotting any Clan 50 tonner singlehandedly, meaning any IS team running top mechs will stop any Clan team running top mechs in a brawl hands down.


We've been balancing IS vs Clans for too long without looking at the quirks, without looking at how they pair with the skill tree, without comparing top tier mechs to the top tier mechs of the other side. People have finally compared Urbanmechs to Kodiaks for long enough that they're starting to compete with each other while the IS top tier mechs run circles around everyone.

Lets go ahead and buff bad mechs on both sides, give the unused mechs some reason to be taken out of the mechbays and into the fields rather than nerfing whatever Clan mech becomes the scapegoat of the month and further limiting what mechs we see on the battlefield.

Spoiler

IS still has higher tonnage. Welp, that explains that. :3

[Jman5]

IS mechs are not "running circles around everyone." You're getting way too ahead of yourself.

LFE and light ferro go a long way toward buffing many IS builds, but both are straight up inferior to the Clan XL and Ferro. As far as the new weapons go; While many of them like the RAC are fun to use, they are still inferior against traditional high alpha pinpoint builds.

What I will say is that I think IS is strong enough right now that the tonnage advantage needs to be brought down. Probably in scouting as well.

I don't know how you can blame IS advantage on quirks when the clan side is now full of quirked mechs and omnipods. You want to dump quirks completely? Then you better be ready for most of the game's Clan mechs to get royally screwed.

[Lightfoot]

Inner Sphere have the best arsenal of weapons now. There is no question. Superior UACs, RAC's, 1900 meter per second ERPPCs and Heavy PPCs. MRMs and Rockets rock as a back-up weapon. HGRs and Light Gauss.

The Clans got Heavy Lasers. ATMs are a no-show being the worst and most useless missile of all. Heavy Lasers can be made to work, but only a few loadouts are better than ER Lasers.

I would leave Inner Sphere mechs alone, but buff Clan mechs to be equal in toughness. This would produce the best gameplay since TTK's are MWO's top problem.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lightfoot, on 02 August 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Inner Sphere have the best arsenal of weapons now. There is no question. Superior UACs, RAC's, 1900 meter per second ERPPCs and Heavy PPCs. MRMs and Rockets rock as a back-up weapon. HGRs and Light Gauss.

Just lol

• Heavy and Light Gauss are both horrible.
  
• No one uses rockets seriously.
  
• Heavy PPCs are nice, but Clans still have better PPFLD thanks to Clan Gauss.
  
• iERPPCs have good velocity, but nothing can spam them like a Warhawk can spam cERPPCs and do similar damage so no one cares.
  
• RACs are again, not really competitive.
  
• UACs are nice, but Clans still can make the most of them because iUACs cost too much heat/tonnage/space compared to the Clans (example 8 UAC2 Whale vs 6 UAC2 Mauler).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 August 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Heavy PPCs are nice, but Clans still have better PPFLD thanks to Clan Gauss.

yes but clan gauss needs to be nerfed bigtime. its 3 tons lighter than IS gauss with no real downside.

clan gauss should fall somewhere in between light gauss and IS gauss.



light gauss should be 10, 810m/1620m range, 4.25+0.5 cooldown, 20 shots/ton, 2200m/s
(change both light gauss and 10 damage ppcs to ghost heat limit of 3)

clan gauss should be 12 damage, 750m/1500m range, 4.25+0.5 cooldown, 13 shots/ton, 2000m/s
(and possibly change ghost heat limit of both clan gauss/cerppc to 3)

IS gauss is fine where it is

heavy gauss should be 22 damage, 570m/1140m range, 6.0+1.0 cooldown, 7 shots/ton, 1500m/s
(possibly have a ghost heat limit of 1 if firing two heavy gauss for 44 damage is too good)



that would make all the gauss rifles useful and balanced with eachother. clan gauss would be weaker but still really good for 12 tons; it would trade damage for shorter cooldown/charge time and longer range.

Edited by Khobai, 02 August 2017 - 09:38 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 02 August 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

yes but clan gauss needs to be nerfed bigtime.

That's irrelevant to the discussion of how good things are right now. Even then though, HPPC > iGauss.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 August 2017 - 09:44 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

Comp has good indication of good mechs per side. If comp teams are running both sides' mechs about 50-50 ratio on all class, then that's close to balanced. CW is at the mercy of Mercs--in this case, they wish to try out new tech.

All you'll see in comp are the peak of top performers rather than a fuller spread of mechs we see in FW. Also the tonnage restrictions are different, and its 8v8 instead of 4 sets of 12v12. You'll get absolutely no data on underperforming mechs in comp since nobody is taking them in the first place. Balance is also going to be skewed due to the amount of firepower on the field compared to a 12v12. Due to only getting data on the absolute top performers we'd end up only buffing or more likely nerfing those mechs in particular like what has been going on, leaving mechs such as the Vindicator to continue rotting for years. Comp builds also tend to be very different from FW builds, usually FW builds have more armor and are focused around getting out more DPS as a team while Comp's builds have a heavier focus towards PPFLD to the point that without a highly coordinated team surrounding you you'd never see the build in normal play.

Shinichi Yamamoto, on 02 August 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

Data from 6:27 pm to 6:52 pm. That is a snap shot of 25 minutes where the IS was winning more than clans did. I am sure I can find a time frame which will "proof" the exact opposite.

Also, why are you with Liao now? Are you maybe one of those nomads following the most OP mechs? Even though I have to say that we are at a pretty good state right now as far as I can tell. Plus, of course more people switched from Clan to IS than the other way around because IS has truly new tech whereas Clans only got LRM 2.0 and Lasers 2.0 as someone already stated.

Snap shot is from what has been common for over a week now. I'm on Liao because they're one of the highest paying factions for IS. I'm on IS because they have much higher win rates than Clan, and thus give me much more money over a period of time. With IS in scouting I can one shot the Clan mechs with 4ASRM6+2RL20 Bushwacker, then afterwards mop up remaining enemies with the 4ASRM6 like usual. The only new tech on IS that really mattered to me in FW were the LFEs and rocket launchers, LFEs improved all my mechs significantly while retaining durability and rocket launchers gave me an "I win" button for a brawl that was already in my favor. I don't even use the ERML because the normal ML provide much less heat, and thus let me trade better, since FW is mostly fought in IS ranges anyway.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 August 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Just lol

• Heavy and Light Gauss are both horrible.
  
• No one uses rockets seriously.
  
• Heavy PPCs are nice, but Clans still have better PPFLD thanks to Clan Gauss.
  
• iERPPCs have good velocity, but nothing can spam them like a Warhawk can spam cERPPCs and do similar damage so no one cares.
  
• RACs are again, not really competitive.
  
• UACs are nice, but Clans still can make the most of them because iUACs cost too much heat/tonnage/space compared to the Clans (example 8 UAC2 Whale vs 6 UAC2 Mauler).

You should probably try using those RLs, at least for scouting, they're extremely powerful and save you some armor by killing an enemy in an instant rather than after a 10 second brawl. Also, the only PPFLD options the Clan has is the Gauss, with CERPPCs being hybrid, and the UAC2 being too low damage anyway, meanwhile IS has all their ACs, PPCs, and their own Gauss, so its pretty obvious Clan would be using the gauss pretty often. As for IS ERPPC spam vs Warhawk CERPPC spam, take a look at the old Awesome running 4 ERPPCs, its what I use for my long range deck now that IS ERPPCs are much faster than gauss due to all the PPC quirks on mechs you should use PPCs on.

Jman5, on 02 August 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

IS mechs are not "running circles around everyone." You're getting way too ahead of yourself.

LFE and light ferro go a long way toward buffing many IS builds, but both are straight up inferior to the Clan XL and Ferro. As far as the new weapons go; While many of them like the RAC are fun to use, they are still inferior against traditional high alpha pinpoint builds.

What I will say is that I think IS is strong enough right now that the tonnage advantage needs to be brought down. Probably in scouting as well.

I don't know how you can blame IS advantage on quirks when the clan side is now full of quirked mechs and omnipods. You want to dump quirks completely? Then you better be ready for most of the game's Clan mechs to get royally screwed.

I want the opposite of dumping quirks, I want more quirks, mostly on mechs that are under performing, and I'd like to even give Clan mechs some decent quirks rather than small bonuses here and there or the good bonuses requiring you to take a terrible omnipod that breaks the good builds. LFE engine and light ferro should be much weaker than CXL and CFF because IS is based around having huge durability quirks, the entire trend is that everything on the IS side is heavier but its also much tougher due to the quirk bonuses. The IS mechs I bring to FW tend to have about 100 points of extra armor added onto them from quirks, that more than makes up for having less free tonnage than a Clan mech. Also IS has much higher DPS, I can use my Black Knight with a 45 point laser alpha and alpha twice in the time it would take a heavy laser using Clanner to alpha once, so even with lower alphas, they end up putting out more damage over time with more precision.

Edited by Dakota1000, 02 August 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's irrelevant to the discussion of how good things are right now.

yeah but the new weapons also just came out. its gonna take more than one patch to balance them

but hopefully the gauss rifles will get sorted out by the next patch. its an easy fix.

[Moldur]

If someone is willing to screenshot or otherwise compile the win rate over a long period of time (days, weeks, months, etc.) in order to find some appreciable trends, by all means. This, however, is not that.

[GrimRiver]

Players like me sided with the IS because IS has more build variety on average, plus IS is the underdoge and people like the underdoge story.

The other players that liked the IS got tired of losing every FW event and decided to swap to the winning side, but now that the IS has closed the gap those players are coming back.

But new IS tech didn't quite close the gap, it merely got closer to the other side of the ledge with a bamboo bridge.

RAC's take too long to spin up and after they fire the cooldown to refire is even longer and the facetime to use them is insane.

MRM are meh at best due to spread and slow travel time to max range.

HGR requires an insane amount of slots and weight, even more so when duel boating so no LFE or XL for you.

LB20X is definitely NOT economical, also no LFE or XL for you here either.

Some are saying HPPC are bad, but from my use, Baradul and B33f's use says otherwise.

I think players have only swapped to IS because of new tech, but once they see that clans have more consistent results with their tech they'll swap back to the clams.

But I'm hoping that's not gonna happen because IS needs to win an event for once.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

As for IS ERPPC spam vs Warhawk CERPPC spam, take a look at the old Awesome running 4 ERPPCs, its what I use for my long range deck now that IS ERPPCs are much faster than gauss due to all the PPC quirks on mechs you should use PPCs on.

Sure, you have the velocity, but you don't have the DPS which is the issue still.

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

You should probably try using those RLs, at least for scouting, they're extremely powerful gimmicky and save you some armor by killing an enemy in an instant rather than after a 10 second brawl.

FTFY, the less people on the battlefield the more reasonable they become, and considering the rare nature of 4v4s (especially low tonnage 4v4), I don't really care about that scenario too much.

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Also, the only PPFLD options the Clan has is the Gauss, with CERPPCs being hybrid

Considering how superior both of those are to IS options, it doesn't really matter.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 August 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

Sure, you have the velocity, but you don't have the DPS which is the issue still.


FTFY, the less people on the battlefield the more reasonable they become, and considering the rare nature of 4v4s (especially low tonnage 4v4), I don't really care about that scenario too much.


Considering how superior both of those are to IS options, it doesn't really matter.

You actually have more DPS than the Clan one where you want it disregarding the splash damage. IS ERPPCs have a 0.5 second lower cooldown ontop of IS skill tree having higher cooldown nodes. Then the higher velocity lets you hit more shots than the CERPPC at longer ranges.

Even in larger groups the rocket launcher becomes a powerful force the more people are using them. If you are the only one on the team with a rocket launcher then its not much, but if everyone in a 12 man wave fires 2 RL20s that's 70 damage per person, putting your team ahead in total armor left on the field and likely opening up or weakening armor on many of the enemy mechs.

I prefer the PPFLD of the IS ERPPC over Clan, and I favor the AC10 and HPPC over Cgauss due to the ability to snap shot, higher DPS, and equal/lower weight, not to mention the whole not exploding 100% of the time thing. IS PPFLD has its pros and cons compared to Clan PPFLD.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

You actually have more DPS than the Clan one where you want it disregarding the splash damage.

Sure, if you disregard splash, but you are a fool if you do because that splash can easily add up.

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

IS ERPPCs have a 0.5 second lower cooldown ontop of IS skill tree having higher cooldown nodes.

That's only useful for that initial burst since heat is still your biggest limiting factor.

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

but if everyone in a 12 man wave fires 2 RL20s that's 70 damage per person

Provided everyone is close enough to hit with both 20s and doesn't spread it everywhere.....in other words is pretty pointless because at that point why not just carry SRMs and go full brawl.

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

I prefer the PPFLD of the IS ERPPC over Clan, and I favor the AC10 and HPPC over Cgauss due to the ability to snap shot, higher DPS, and equal/lower weight, not to mention the whole not exploding 100% of the time thing. IS PPFLD has its pros and cons compared to Clan PPFLD.

Guess which one comp players favor, I'll give you a hint, it isn't IS and hasn't been since the dakka era with the Mauler and Warhammer.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 August 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Shinichi Yamamoto]

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Snap shot is from what has been common for over a week now.

Debatable. That's your word against mine.

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

I'm on Liao because they're one of the highest paying factions for IS. I'm on IS because they have much higher win rates than Clan, and thus give me much more money over a period of time. With IS in scouting I can one shot the Clan mechs with 4ASRM6+2RL20 Bushwacker, then afterwards mop up remaining enemies with the 4ASRM6 like usual. The only new tech on IS that really mattered to me in FW were the LFEs and rocket launchers, LFEs improved all my mechs significantly while retaining durability and rocket launchers gave me an "I win" button for a brawl that was already in my favor. I don't even use the ERML because the normal ML provide much less heat, and thus let me trade better, since FW is mostly fought in IS ranges anyway.

Then you are part of the problem you are discussing here.

Edited by Shinichi Yamamoto, 02 August 2017 - 11:17 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Clan Gauss nerf?

No they nerfed Clan mechs by denying them normal Mechlab. Fixed engines and fixed equipment means most Clan mechs can only carry one Gauss Rifle below the Assault class and if they do it's at the expense of ammo and armor. You don't nerf weapons based on Kodiaks, Dires, and MC mkii's. You nerf the mechs.