45 replies to this topic

[Nema Nabojiv]

Cathy, on 08 August 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Uziel kind of throws that argument out the window.

This and c-bills available assassins and bushwackers.

[MechaBattler]

The Spirit Bear and all Kodiak were brought into line with all 100 ton mechs. It wasn't specifically nerfed. And since MASC works off the base stats, the Spirit Bear doesn't get as much of a gain from MASC. By using tonnage as basis for mobility there's less chance of a new mech being OP for it's tonnage. The Uziel actually has mobility higher than it's tonnage warrants, but it doesn't save it from those big shoulders.

All that conspiracy of nerfing good mechs to sell new OP mechs is just bitterness that a particular meta was nerfed.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

So yeah, torpedoes are really the only weapon that's useful against the Khab.

So when you see a giant enemy Khab, that's the weak point you hit for massive damage?

[SMDMadCow]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 August 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

I don't think you understand what determines P2W status if you think pilot skill comes into the equation. You could kill people with the "gold ammo" from WoT too, doesn't change the fact it is P2W.

Premium ammo in WOT has been available for in-game silver for several years, no longer P2W there.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SMDMadCow, on 08 August 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Premium ammo in WOT has been available for in-game silver for several years, no longer P2W there.

Ok, cool, then change from 'is P2W' to 'was P2W'.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 August 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Sjorpha]

It's actually ok to have a small degree of p2w in FTP games, the question is how much and what kind is acceptable.

This is assuming the basic definition of p2w being anything that is cash only and provides a gameplay advantage of any kind. How much advantage isn't really relevant to the definition itself, it's just that bigger advantages are bigger problems.

It is actually very easy to determine if something is p2w, you only need to ask those two questions: Is it cash only? Does it provide an advantage? If yes to both questions then it is technically p2w, not much to discuss there.

The more interesting question is how much p2w, intentional and unintentional, must the community tolerate. At a minimum we must tolerate the risk of new mechs being p2w for a while, otherwise PGI would have to underpower every new mech to remove any risk of it being the new best mech for something, clearly not a good idea since it's fun and good if new mechs are competitive, they also need to be competitive to sell well and we have to respect that.

So where is the line? Quite clearly the Kodiak 3 was too strong at releas, clearly it was very much p2w for a while, but was it unacceptable to release it and balance it later? IMO it was ok, **** happens and they fixed it. I suppose it was a bit problematic for the WC assault diversity but w/e.

Edited by Sjorpha, 08 August 2017 - 01:41 PM.

[Athom83]

SMDMadCow, on 08 August 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Premium ammo in WOT has been available for in-game silver for several years, no longer P2W there.

No, you use premium credits to buy it, then silver to restock it.

Edited by Athom83, 08 August 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[Lostdragon]

Asym, on 08 August 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

P2W isn't a sales strategy. P2W is a gamplay strategy: competitive players must go this route.....

PGI is nerfing to increase sales: period. It's more a "bait-and-switch" event where the post Nerf'd mech you bought is x% less effective, no matter what you do in the slkill tree, almost forcing you to buy something else.... And, if you don't, well, too bad.

I think the OP is correct; MWO isn't a P2W platform; even though, the micro-sales of Hero's is as much a financial enticement (the 30% CB Upgrade) which is really necessary due to the skill tree mastering process.

JMOpinion

Bait and switch was a term I almost used, it is really more of a "pay for temporary advantage" thing in MWO, but you can't realistically say that this sort of thing has no impact on the game or hasn't happened. For a long time the Dragonslayer was the best mech in the game and I would wager it has been one of the most profitable hero mechs. There are other examples of objectively better mechs or omnipods being locked behind a paywall, and that is not good no matter what you want to call it. You can be successful with free mechs, but certain chassis have the best variant locked behind a paywall. It even extends to mech packs, if you want the best omnipods/variants in a mech pack you usually have to order the basic, reinforcements, and hero. That is definitely by design.

Cathy, on 08 August 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Uziel kind of throws that argument out the window.

Yes you are bitter about the spirit bear as it still wrecks face, thought it has been over hauled by the Madrauder 2 and the Madcat 2

It is objectively much worse than it was, along with all the other KDKs. I get the 3 was OP but the SB feels like a completely different and much worse mech now.

Re: Uziel: Just because not every mech is OP/powercreepy when it comes out doesn't mean that some are not being intentionally released that way and nerfed later after it is available for cbills doesn't mean that is not what PGI is doing with some mechs to increase revenue. There is no way to prove or disprove that is the thought process, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that doesn't look good. PGI is incompetent in a lot of ways, but they know what makes a mech powerful and they know powerful mechs will sell.

I have always felt PGI monetized MWO all wrong, but I get why they did it the way they did. I think the game would probably be much more popular and less niche if they had put the emphasis on selling vanity items and made all mechs available to F2P players, though. Remember when we were going to have things like custom heads and other components along with decals and such? Wouldn't the game be better and people less pissed off if those were what PGI sold? There could never be a sense of impropriety concerning a nerf to a TBR nosecone, or accusations of powercreep for a new set of feet for a AS7.

Edited by Lostdragon, 08 August 2017 - 01:50 PM.

[DAYLEET]

Ravenous Starling, on 08 August 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

I wish people would stop trowing that term around like it's candy. I have no idea where they got that sense of entitlement from,

It's like people using the word "entitlement", it's a red flag for uninformed and/or biased opinion.

Edited by DAYLEET, 08 August 2017 - 01:48 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

Athom83, on 08 August 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

No, you use premium credits to buy it, then silver to restock it.

Nope, you can use silver to buy it and restock it.

[Brain Cancer]

MWO's money model is pretty straightforward.

Real-dollar robots are "balanced" when they come into the C-bill period, at which point there are new "oops we IMBA'd" chassis sitting in the store to be purchased. Cycle repeats.

[Alan Davion]

Metus regem, on 08 August 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

Ramming works too.

I find it's a tactic that a lot of people underestimate and often ignore...

I will admit ramming works too, if you're in the right position to cut the little bollocks off at the pass. I forgot to mention the Khab is also the fastest ship in the game, capable of just straight up out running several types of torpedoes. XD

[Alexander of Macedon]

This whole train of clan assaults people complain(ed) about as OP P2W honestly has me laughing, because 90% of the people I (have) see(n) driving them are total incompetents who deal pitiful damage and die quickly because they don't have a clue how to play it and only bought it because they were desperate for a crutch.

[Requiemking]

Alexander of Macedon, on 08 August 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

This whole train of clan assaults people complain(ed) about as OP P2W honestly has me laughing, because 90% of the people I (have) see(n) driving them are total incompetents who deal pitiful damage and die quickly because they don't have a clue how to play it and only bought it because they were desperate for a crutch.

Exactly. Most "X mech is OP" complaints I see come from potatoes who barely know what they are doing. Hell, even the KDK-3, who's "OPness" came from the CUAC10's lack of Ghost Heat and the fact that, for some reason, MWO's potato population thought that they could facetank a DPS-based 100 ton mech and win. There have only been two instances I can think of where a mech was genuinely OP, and only one case of bad P2W. The Godknight era, where the Black Knight was so overquirked that the IS, even with just the potatoes, pushed the Clans back to their homeworlds, and the last month before the Rescale, where the Oxide's OPAF Durability quirks were brought into the light. The Godknight era, hilariously, was the first(and so far only) instance of intelligent balancing from PGI. They nerfed the Knight back in line with the other IS Heavies, but it was still competitive. The Oxide, on the other hand, was the trigger of a sledgehammer nerf(which by the way is one of the great sins of gaming). Because the Oxide was OP, the Rescale was basically structured to be a massive Light nerf.

Edited by Requiemking, 08 August 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Requiemking, on 08 August 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

Exactly. Most "X mech is OP" complaints I see come from potatoes who barely know what they are doing. Hell, even the KDK-3, who's "OPness" came from the CUAC10's lack of Ghost Heat and the fact that, for some reason, MWO's potato population thought that they could facetank a DPS-based 100 ton mech and win.

The Kodiak was OP even after the 4 UAC10 build died.......

[Metus regem]

Alan Davion, on 08 August 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

I will admit ramming works too, if you're in the right position to cut the little bollocks off at the pass. I forgot to mention the Khab is also the fastest ship in the game, capable of just straight up out running several types of torpedoes. XD

yea... I've run into them... just have to watch the map, and get a favorable position... Not saying I've got 90% kill rate against them or anything, but I'll take a 60% kill rate on them, either through over-pens, torps or ramming. Oddly enough I find ramming is the most reliable tool against them.

[Requiemking]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 August 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

The Kodiak was OP even after the 4 UAC10 build died.......

Again, Potato Facetanking(born from the fact that most 100 tonners are slow and fat) in addition to the fact that CGauss has no real downsides are to blame here.

[Pxranger]

oneda, on 08 August 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

you prolly said that too when kodiak was only available for mc.

Prolly said that too when summoner loyalty omnipods were not available to the entire community.

You prolly say that without using your brainz.

Your post doesnt make any sense.

Mwo has been p2win in the past and still is at times.

Thats how it is. You can cry, whine or run around naked.

Thats how it is nonetheless

Might be how you see it, doesn't make it true.

[Pxranger]

Pay to win, implies gaining an advantage over everyone that that didn't pay to win. It Also implies a game where if it exists, it is a deliberate policy pursed by the game company.

I don't think that's the case in MWO, most of the instances of "P2W" everyone rants about were poor design decisions or game flaws that were eventually fixed. If it wasn't, then the Gold Founders Mechs would be seen daily on the battlefield, tearing **** up and you would see obvious and undeniable advantages to Hero mechs, and the would never be available for in game credits. and most people would have left the game already.

If PGI is intentionally making MWO pay to win, they are doing a piss-poor job of it!

[MadRover]

Alexander of Macedon, on 08 August 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

This whole train of clan assaults people complain(ed) about as OP P2W honestly has me laughing, because 90% of the people I (have) see(n) driving them are total incompetents who deal pitiful damage and die quickly because they don't have a clue how to play it and only bought it because they were desperate for a crutch.

Exactly. When I think of a Mad Cat MKII I think medium to long range most of the time. Annihilator is a close range monster, Cougar is just a bigger Adder, and the Uziel (which they messed up really bad) is a medium range harasser. Afterwards I make my builds centered around those train of thoughts and figure out which works for me. I see people trying to be at the front line in a MCII thinking they can take damage and laugh. I just think to myself, you are doing it wrong, please stop embarrassing my favorite mech (of all things) please.