279 replies to this topic

[Dago Red]

meteorol, on 10 August 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

Someone who believes LRM take any noteworthy amount of skill isn't just terrible at this game, but videogames in general.

I mean they do require a decent understanding of positioning and where cover is on the map and the angles needed to circumvent it. Being good at picking your targets for maximum effect and being flexible enough to change that on the fly also helps as well. That's a tactical skill set of a sort.

Twitch skill and aim not so much.

[Ruar]

Dago Red, on 10 August 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

I mean they do require a decent understanding of positioning and where cover is on the map and the angles needed to circumvent it. Being good at picking your targets for maximum effect and being flexible enough to change that on the fly also helps as well. That's a tactical skill set of a sort.

Twitch skill and aim not so much.

All of the items you listed are needed for every weapon system. The biggest difference is LRMs require the least amount of knowledge regarding these items and the least amount of skill to engage the target.

[Dago Red]

Ruar, on 10 August 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

All of the items you listed are needed for every weapon system. The biggest difference is LRMs require the least amount of knowledge regarding these items and the least amount of skill to engage the target.

I disagree.

When you launch a shell or lasers someone's way you know where everything hitting because you have line of sight.

LRM's can take a lot more minds eye awareness to make actually land especially on the more cluttered maps.

That and all I said was that they take SOME skill to do well with. And lets be honest situational awareness is a lot rarer in this player base than many of us like to think about not just some baseline thing.

Edited by Dago Red, 10 August 2017 - 05:44 AM.

[Ruar]

Dago Red, on 10 August 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

I disagree.

When you launch a shell or lasers someone's way you know where everything hitting because you have line of sight.

LRM's can take a lot more minds eye awareness to make actually land especially on the more cluttered maps.

That and all I said was that they take SOME skill to do well with. And lets be honest situational awareness is a lot rarer in this player base than many of us like to think about not just some baseline thing.

A LRM boat can sit back behind cover and shoot volleys with the only skill needed to determine hits or misses is watching the cross hair for the hit indicator. That's less skill than any other weapon.

Then you have people like me who make it even easier by calling priority missile targets and then announcing when that target is going to be behind cover so the missiles won't be wasted. Not that I like LRM boats, but if people are going to bring them then I'll do what I can to make them useful.

[Dago Red]

Ruar, on 10 August 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

A LRM boat can sit back behind cover and shoot volleys with the only skill needed to determine hits or misses is watching the cross hair for the hit indicator. That's less skill than any other weapon.

Then you have people like me who make it even easier by calling priority missile targets and then announcing when that target is going to be behind cover so the missiles won't be wasted. Not that I like LRM boats, but if people are going to bring them then I'll do what I can to make them useful.

They can do that yes but they will be milking far more efficiency out of an already kind of jank weapons system if they actually know what they're doing. The skill ceiling is lower but not nonexistent and frankly given how many people I see screw lurming up I'm not even sure the skill floor is as low as people pretend.

Just like a laser vomit mech with an unsteady hand can ruin another mechs paint job real good all over and still be said to be contributing somewhat but a truly good one can be like a scalpel.

[Ruar]

Dago Red, on 10 August 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

They can do that yes but they will be milking far more efficiency out of an already kind of jank weapons system if they actually know what they're doing. The skill ceiling is lower but not nonexistent and frankly given how many people I see screw lurming up I'm not even sure the skill floor is as low as people pretend.

Just like a laser vomit mech with an unsteady hand can ruin another mechs paint job real good all over and still be said to be contributing somewhat but a truly good one can be like a scalpel.

The point isn't about more efficiency. The point is LRMs require so little skill that someone can simply sit behind cover, hold down the fire key, and score damage. It's just that easy and something no other weapon can do.

[BTGbullseye]

Ruar, on 10 August 2017 - 06:03 AM, said:

The point is LRMs require so little skill that someone can simply sit behind cover, hold down the fire key, and score damage. It's just that easy and something no other weapon can do.

So they magically get damage without target lock at all, and produce no heat?

There's a lot more to LRMing than you're taking into account.

[Ruar]

BTGbullseye, on 10 August 2017 - 06:08 AM, said:

So they magically get damage without target lock at all, and produce no heat?

There's a lot more to LRMing than you're taking into account.

I knew as soon as I hit post that someone would say something about lock and heat. Lock = aiming any other weapon and lock is simpler and easier than leading or holding on target. So yeah... you get a lock then fire. Sheesh.

Heat applies to all weapons, moot point.


LRMs require the least amount of skill in the game to get damage. Hide, wait for red icons, point cross hairs at red icon, verify range, shoot, see if hit occurs, watch heat (or just wait for auto shutdown). Rinse and repeat until all ammunition is used up.

Every other weapon system requires the pilot put in more effort in order to do damage.

[Dago Red]

Ruar, on 10 August 2017 - 06:03 AM, said:

The point isn't about more efficiency. The point is LRMs require so little skill that someone can simply sit behind cover, hold down the fire key, and score damage. It's just that easy and something no other weapon can do.

Are you trying to run this around to fishing out your awful indirect fire "fixes" you were pushing so hard that everyone on both sides agrees are completely without merit?

Because if scuffing other peoples paint erratically from a distance while your teammates at the from is what you call damage then there's no help for you. Actually being as effectual as they're capable takes skill. Potato lobbing shots into high cover from purely indirect fire does not true but it also doesn't do anything helpful either.

[Ruar]

Dago Red, on 10 August 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

Are you trying to run this around to fishing out your awful indirect fire "fixes" you were pushing so hard that everyone on both sides agrees are completely without merit?

Because if scuffing other peoples paint erratically from a distance while your teammates at the from is what you call damage then there's no help for you. Actually being as effectual as they're capable takes skill. Potato lobbing shots into high cover from purely indirect fire does not true but it also doesn't do anything helpful either.

Nope, and plenty of people like my suggestions about how to change LRMs, thank you anyway.

However, damage is just that... damage. Taking some armor off the enemy. LRMs require less skill than any other weapon to take armor off their target. Doing effective damage is a different discussion. The sad truth is many players use LRMs just to do damage and don't care one bit about effective damage. Which is why so many people dislike LRMs in their current design because they allow people to do damage with no skill required.

[Dago Red]

Ruar, on 10 August 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

Nope, and plenty of people like my suggestions about how to change LRMs, thank you anyway.

However, damage is just that... damage. Taking some armor off the enemy. LRMs require less skill than any other weapon to take armor off their target. Doing effective damage is a different discussion. The sad truth is many players use LRMs just to do damage and don't care one bit about effective damage. Which is why so many people dislike LRMs in their current design because they allow people to do damage with no skill required.

I'm not sure how that's a problem though. Having weapons the super new, or those with either physical issues or who've just aged out of having decent reflexes or people with just consistent abysmal ping can use and contribute to their team is of benefit to the game.

That's more people playing and having a decent time and passing the word around about our super niche little wonderland here.

Me I can aim and I don't need that crutch but then again they're hardly overpowering unless they have good narcer's and even then you can rush the other team down just fine in the rain.

Begrudging others the ability to be mediocre for lower effort or skill doesn't hurt the rest of us at all when we can excel.

[Ruar]

Dago Red, on 10 August 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

I'm not sure how that's a problem though. Having weapons the super new, or those with either physical issues or who've just aged out of having decent reflexes or people with just consistent abysmal ping can use and contribute to their team is of benefit to the game.

That's more people playing and having a decent time and passing the word around about our super niche little wonderland here.

Me I can aim and I don't need that crutch but then again they're hardly overpowering unless they have good narcer's and even then you can rush the other team down just fine in the rain.

Begrudging others the ability to be mediocre for lower effort or skill doesn't hurt the rest of us at all when we can excel.

But it does hurt the rest of the team. When that assault or heavy is sitting in the back just spamming missiles and having no significant effect it does hurt the team. The team could have had someone in that slot that is actually capable of participating and contributing.

The fallacy of LRMs is that it's good to have some kind of low skill weapon for people who need such a weapon to exist. The truth is there is no need for such a weapon because the game already has a relatively low skill threshold. WoT is much more complicated. There are other weapons which are easy enough to use that provide a better return than LRMs for those who need a low skill weapon. PPCs and lasers are probably the next easiest weapon to use given their range and performance and can easily be put into a few mechs with quirks and good hardpoint positions.

LRMs are just broken in their current design but PGI doesn't care. It's too much cost/effort to actually fix them so they just keep tooling along releasing new mech packs trying to generate enough sales to keep the game limping along.

[Snazzy Dragon]

LRMs are a trap, though. They seem easy to use and have high damage values but they primarily rely on a target making mistakes or being out in the open.. the higher the skill in a playing field the lower their effectiveness. And that isn't even counting the spread-- I've had lurms rain on me in assaults with a cherry red CT just open up an arm or leg instead of killing me.

[Galenit]

Ruar, on 10 August 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

...
Every other weapon system requires the pilot put in more effort in order to do damage.

Point in derection of enemy, press button.
Point in direction of enemy, wait 0,5 to 4 seconds, press button,
still pointing in the direction of the enemy for another 1-5 seconds.

Lockandforget lrms were in mw4, in mwo you need to hold the lock until they hit.
Maybe next time try something at least once before you cry about it?

Edited by Galenit, 10 August 2017 - 10:46 AM.

[HGAK47]

Oh my god so funny! I dont know whats better, the kills with footlurms or the soundpack! "Next potato" lmao!

[PAYWALL]

Prototelis, on 09 August 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

Lrms are an awesome suppression and harassment weapon.

Poop when boated.

Super poop when the lrmboat doesn't do anything but sit in a trench and lob sand at doritos.

They are especially good when boated with a pair of lasers and tag. few, widespread lrms without artemis won't evoke much fear in your enemy. And they won't suppress anything. Skilled players analyse the volleys of lrms launched at them and don't panic when the "incoming missile" alert pops up.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Again, you'd be foolish to say ATM's are bad just because of their minimum range. They have a grotesque ability to **** allover things at 150-240 ish but outside of that they lose that edge somewhat and at extreme ranges both close and far you're just throwing weaker LRM's at range, and up close, phantom missiles with no damage to the enemy destroying your cooling economy. At least the clan PPC's can cover that point blank zone if you want to run them besides the ATM's.

Range mods boost the reach ATMs deal 3 damage/point at which they drop to 2/1. 11% range brings the sweet spot to 300m, and they don't start dropping past 2 (where they match LRM damage per ton of ammo) until 555m. Unlike LRMs, it's actually worth dumping firepower nodes into range because it directly boosts damage and gives you a more comfy space betwee 3 and zero damage. HML's make a pretty solid backup gun, too- they're perfect at the ranges ATMs have trouble, and they don't mind the extra range investment either.

Quote

See, I'm questioning how much of that was from the LRMs, how much of the effective damage (that is, that contributed to killing things rather than being random spread) was from LRMs, and how much more you could have done if you'd mounted an ATM/energy mix instead. I've pulled 1k damage trivially with ATM24 and backup micropulses, and that on lighter stuff than an Orion IIC that can't take as much damage or carry as much ammo.

I'd have gotten less in thanks to the AMS fire, honestly. The LRMs actually kept things clear for the first kill and part of the second soaking it, got me a few solid hits before I closed to 3/2 ATM range, and after that it was just plain brutal combination fire with missile alphas. Without the LRMs, the ATMs would have been losing half their salvo early on and frankly, I think I'd have done more like 1K at best assuming I survived. If that. Being an Orion IIC, it's energy hardpoints are miserably low, and I'd have taken much more damage trading vs. missilepoking. A good chunk of that damage may not be directly from LRM hits, but I'd never have pushed the tighter ATM salvos through in the first place.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

They can do that yes but they will be milking far more efficiency out of an already kind of jank weapons system if they actually know what they're doing. The skill ceiling is lower but not nonexistent and frankly given how many people I see screw lurming up I'm not even sure the skill floor is as low as people pretend.

This. I'll be up there, chucking missiles when more rain down from...somewhere.

Then I realize it's some derpy lurmtater with 2-3 LRM 20's, firing indirect from Eastern Mongolia. And I get better effective damage with my 30 than his 60, because Artemis, direct fire, and actually being able to see your target's movements beat spamming missile swarms from Range Ridiculous. Heck, I regularly see someone else's missiles just splattering cover even while mine hit and they just keep firing, because apparently the red crosshair hit indicator is beyond them.

[oldradagast]

Eh, whatever.

You could probably play a laser boat with your foot and do well, too, and maybe even Gauss + PPC back when that was more viable, assuming you could macro the charge somehow to work with your foot. Anyone can fire a billion LRM's and do decent damage with them if their team guards them well and the enemy team is dopey enough to get killed that way, but that holds true of laser vomit, dakka, Gauss, etc.

Long story short, don't try to pretend that wielding hit-scan or near hitscan weapons is somehow "much higher skill" than tossing slow, guided missiles. Hell, I strongly suspect most people have a higher hit rate with their direct fire weapons than LRM's, which one could argue means LRM's require more skill.

None of that makes LRM's particularly GOOD, but I am tired of the lunacy of pretending they are "no skill" and hitscan weapons are "high skill." It's utter BS and easily disproven.

Edited by oldradagast, 10 August 2017 - 06:45 PM.

[oldradagast]

meteorol, on 10 August 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

Someone who believes LRM take any noteworthy amount of skill isn't just terrible at this game, but videogames in general.

And you expect me to believe that peeking out from behind a rock, pressing 1 button to drop a mountain of instant, pinpoint damage on 1 component, and then shuffling back behind that rock requires skill? Lol, don't make me laugh. At least the LRM player has to account for the slow missile speed and not die during the exchange.

Or, to put it another way, if LRM's are "soooo easy you can win games playing with your foot," then why don't we see more high-tier players playing them? Because competitive players are not going to play a weapon system like LRM's that are neither effective nor easy to use properly - they are going to stick with direct fire weapons which are both more dangerous AND easier to use.

Ah, the MWO forums, where people write long tactical books on the right way to use LRM's, and then turn around and pretend they require no skill - ignoring the book just written - but clicking one button for a hitscan alpha is "high skill." Laughable lunacy.

Edited by oldradagast, 10 August 2017 - 06:51 PM.