Funny you should mention that. You are aware that LRMs spread damage around the mech, right? So, pray do tell, how do you consistently force LRMs to hit a specific component? (you don't.)
750 damage is "poor" for an LRM boat?
Lol.
Please tell me more. (The build) No, seriously. Show me at least 5 screenshots of your LRM capabilities breaking or matching 750 damage.
There we have another A1 who didn't even break 150 damage, and he, too, was LRMs. I'm not entirely sure about the C1, but I would not be surprised, at all, if he went LRM40 and some lasers or tags.
LRMs take no skill at all. You have to be with your team, at the back of the push, but within their range to get these results. Sitting out back lobing LRMs at 1k+ range is where the problem starts.
Also, I have far, FAR more screenshots of over 1k damage with ballistic, SRM and laser boats than LRM boats.
750 is nothing to write home about for LRM damage.
I mean...you literally posted one screenshot of an LRM game...on Polar of all maps.
we have guys accusing juju of faking it, we have guys dissecting his performance and talking how "badly" he played, guys who claim 750 damage and 1 kill isn't impressive (yet have stats showing they can't do anything CLOSE to that on average).
Wil McCullough, on 09 August 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:
wow the salt from lurm apologists is real.
we have guys accusing juju of faking it, we have guys dissecting his performance and talking how "badly" he played, guys who claim 750 damage and 1 kill isn't impressive (yet have stats showing they can't do anything CLOSE to that on average).
incredible.
I don't get your point...is 750 damage and 1 kill is supposed to be impressive for LRMs for a cherry picked result, regardless of the hands/feet thing?
Lyoto Machida, on 09 August 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:
I don't get your point...is 750 damage and 1 kill is supposed to be impressive for LRMs for a cherry picked result, regardless of the hands/feet thing?
Without using his feet, yes.
With hia feet, even more so.
Not sure if you play the same game as i do, but in mine, the average qp game has half the team not able.to break 250 damage . Juju could lose his right hand in an accident tomorrow and i'd still take him in his footy lurmboat over 90% of the potatoes i see ingame. Maybe your ingame experience is different. Maybe in your game, 750 damage, 1 kill performances are mediocre stats for the average pilot. I don't know.
But we're drifting off-topic here.
Fact stands that juju, using his foot to aim, did remarkably well because of how low the skill floor is on lurms.
Please tell me more. (The build) No, seriously. Show me at least 5 screenshots of your LRM capabilities breaking or matching 750 damage.
There we have another A1 who didn't even break 150 damage, and he, too, was LRMs. I'm not entirely sure about the C1, but I would not be surprised, at all, if he went LRM40 and some lasers or tags.
Sure. This is over the last month or so. Easy-peasy, even made sure they weren't all Polar matches so someone would go "EZMODEMAP". Didn't include the 1500 damage game because it was on Escort and even with the 4 solo kills, the logical cry of "DAMAGE PADDER" would rise. Even an 800+ game on Mining, though I just got KMDDs thanks to the team actually shooting what I was missile dumping on.
Not too hard, really. You want to look for someone riding their missiles well, look for solo kills and KMDDs. That is, if MWO actually tracked those stats. Raw LRM damage you cut by a third and you're about where the numbers should be for direct fire equivalents (so about 500 direct damage = 750 LRM damage), because lurms spread even when you're taking your best possible shots.
Quote
LRMs take no skill at all. You have to be with your team, at the back of the push, but within their range to get these results. Sitting out back lobing LRMs at 1k+ range is where the problem starts.
It's more where all the problem lurmtaters stop, not where they start. Also, positioning gets more complex if your opponent has one or more AMS boats and/or can keep ECM up.
Take this example,
The enemy team loses hideous amounts of damage to six AMS because the lurmboaters sit just behind their team and spit missiles into the AMS wind once their team melts the outliers who decided to huddle on the mountain and die. Despite perfect spotters, they're neutered the rest of the game as shot after shot gets to cross the full umbrellas, yet neither comes down from his "ideal" position to contribute with taking some damage, close range shots on the corner or use their backup lasers until they're rushed, and end up the last ones to die instead.
That's a lot of damage shot out of the sky!
It ended 10-12, so even a little help with secondaries and taking hits would have probably turned it into a win for the lurmboaters. Instead, they were baffled by the AMS flak and refused to consider alternatives, and it got their team a loss.
It's not like ballistics or energy, since enemies can and do bring mobile countermeasures to your main guns. When they do, you either get creative on positioning/options or you're in trouble as far as contributing to a win.
Wil McCullough, on 09 August 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:
Without using his feet, yes.
With hia feet, even more so.
Not sure if you play the same game as i do, but in mine, the average qp game has half the team not able.to break 250 damage . Juju could lose his right hand in an accident tomorrow and i'd still take him in his footy lurmboat over 90% of the potatoes i see ingame. Maybe your ingame experience is different. Maybe in your game, 750 damage, 1 kill performances are mediocre stats for the average pilot. I don't know.
But we're drifting off-topic here.
Fact stands that juju, using his foot to aim, did remarkably well because of how low the skill floor is on lurms.
With his feet, I agree. Using hands like a normal person? Not so much. Is it above average? Sure, but that's a ton of spread damage for one kill.
In no way am I saying that 750, 1 kill is an average performance...just that under normal circumstances for LRMs, you wouldn't come on the forum and brag about it (hence why there's a 1400 damage screenshot thread or whatever).
Now if you tell me he's averaging 750, 1 kill with his feet? Yes, I'd be super impressed but I'm sure that's not the case...how many times did he try this and not get 750, 1 kill? In any case, all this thread has done is made me want to go try LRMs using my feet to shoot.
What do you personally consider to be good average damage/kills per game for a chassis/variant?
I haven't read any of the previous post... THANATOS. JUMP NARCING MISSILE BOAT FROM HELL.
ALSO... the ratio of people who suck with direct fire weapons is more or less likely equal to the ratio of those who suck with missiles. My guess is that more of the people who suck at direct fire blame the people who use missiles for their losses.
Target computer, bap, command console? narc on the arms... jump. That and enough tonnage for backup weapons? gonna be nice.
ah yeah.. I was assuming people checked for yellows and oranges spots before spraying and praying.
To Clarify: Faster target info lets you see whats lacking armor faster, then you jump narc it, and or missile behind cover or even poptart missile. Get your own locks by poptarting, and narc. Get over cover by poptarting missiles.
Lyoto Machida, on 09 August 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:
With his feet, I agree. Using hands like a normal person? Not so much. Is it above average? Sure, but that's a ton of spread damage for one kill.
In no way am I saying that 750, 1 kill is an average performance...just that under normal circumstances for LRMs, you wouldn't come on the forum and brag about it (hence why there's a 1400 damage screenshot thread or whatever).
Now if you tell me he's averaging 750, 1 kill with his feet? Yes, I'd be super impressed but I'm sure that's not the case...how many times did he try this and not get 750, 1 kill? In any case, all this thread has done is made me want to go try LRMs using my feet to shoot.
What do you personally consider to be good average damage/kills per game for a chassis/variant?
i dunno man. maybe i'm easily impressed but him being able to get 750 damage and 1 kill AT ALL while aiming using his foot is hella impressive to me and actually surprising. i mean, by now, everyone with half a brain knows that lurms have a low skill floor. but for him to perform like that using his foot REALLY drives the point home.
as for good average damage/kills per game, i go by a very simple performance indicator - ranking up or down.
deal enough damage to get "=" on a loss? you're good. doesn't matter what the chassis is.
Edited by Wil McCullough, 09 August 2017 - 07:18 PM.
Sure. This is over the last month or so. Easy-peasy, even made sure they weren't all Polar matches so someone would go "EZMODEMAP". Didn't include the 1500 damage game because it was on Escort and even with the 4 solo kills, the logical cry of "DAMAGE PADDER" would rise. Even an 800+ game on Mining, though I just got KMDDs thanks to the team actually shooting what I was missile dumping on.
Not too hard, really. You want to look for someone riding their missiles well, look for solo kills and KMDDs. That is, if MWO actually tracked those stats. Raw LRM damage you cut by a third and you're about where the numbers should be for direct fire equivalents (so about 500 direct damage = 750 LRM damage), because lurms spread even when you're taking your best possible shots.
It's more where all the problem lurmtaters stop, not where they start. Also, positioning gets more complex if your opponent has one or more AMS boats and/or can keep ECM up.
Take this example,
The enemy team loses hideous amounts of damage to six AMS because the lurmboaters sit just behind their team and spit missiles into the AMS wind once their team melts the outliers who decided to huddle on the mountain and die. Despite perfect spotters, they're neutered the rest of the game as shot after shot gets to cross the full umbrellas, yet neither comes down from his "ideal" position to contribute with taking some damage, close range shots on the corner or use their backup lasers until they're rushed, and end up the last ones to die instead.
That's a lot of damage shot out of the sky!
It ended 10-12, so even a little help with secondaries and taking hits would have probably turned it into a win for the lurmboaters. Instead, they were baffled by the AMS flak and refused to consider alternatives, and it got their team a loss.
It's not like ballistics or energy, since enemies can and do bring mobile countermeasures to your main guns. When they do, you either get creative on positioning/options or you're in trouble as far as contributing to a win.
tl;dr: LRMs take no skill to use.
Interestingly, you are barking at me as if I was advocating for LRMs or something. Maybe take a minute and read what was written.
I posted the only image I have, because I don't play LRM boats much, if at all.
Everyone is missing the point. Can LRMSs be used with skill? Yes. Do players use LRMSs with skill? No. Do players who use directy fire use lrms with skill? NO. QED You all suck. the end.
Interestingly, you are barking at me as if I was advocating for LRMs or something. Maybe take a minute and read what was written.
I posted the only image I have, because I don't play LRM boats much, if at all.
Ironically, from what I read, it sounded like you were advocating for LRMs in a way.
I still don't know why you picked one of the more LRM friendly maps to put up a screenshot of a rather mediocre (for LRMs or otherwise) 750 damage 4 kill game. Definitely a good game, but again...nothing extraordinary in the context of what people have thrown up in the past.
What's your stats overall in that A1? How much of that was done using LRMs?
The really telling point is that none of the lurmboat apologists have switched over to ATMs. If they actually meant their own arguments, they would.
After all, ATMs are very similar to LRMs in MWO, except they have much better potential damage per ton of ammo and far greater damage density per salvo. ATM24 can burn through 1t of ammo in a bit under 4 salvos for 270 max per ton, while LRM40 takes 9 salvos to burn 1t of ammo for 180 max. Fewer exposures, more damage per hit...
Oh. Right. To use ATMs well you need LoS at short-medium range and good fire discipline. That answers that.
Alexander of Macedon, on 09 August 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:
The really telling point is that none of the lurmboat apologists have switched over to ATMs. If they actually meant their own arguments, they would.
After all, ATMs are very similar to LRMs in MWO, except they have much better potential damage per ton of ammo and far greater damage density per salvo. ATM24 can burn through 1t of ammo in a bit under 4 salvos for 270 max per ton, while LRM40 takes 9 salvos to burn 1t of ammo for 180 max. Fewer exposures, more damage per hit...
Oh. Right. To use ATMs well you need LoS at short-medium range and good fire discipline. That answers that.
Interesting. I'm an IS guy at heart...guess it's time to take the ol' Wave 1 mechs out of mothballs and get some ATM action going.
Funny you should mention that. You are aware that LRMs spread damage around the mech, right? So, pray do tell, how do you consistently force LRMs to hit a specific component? (you don't.)
750 damage is "poor" for an LRM boat?
Lol.
Please tell me more. (The build) No, seriously. Show me at least 5 screenshots of your LRM capabilities breaking or matching 750 damage.
There we have another A1 who didn't even break 150 damage, and he, too, was LRMs. I'm not entirely sure about the C1, but I would not be surprised, at all, if he went LRM40 and some lasers or tags.
LRMs take no skill at all. You have to be with your team, at the back of the push, but within their range to get these results. Sitting out back lobing LRMs at 1k+ range is where the problem starts.
Also, I have far, FAR more screenshots of over 1k damage with ballistic, SRM and laser boats than LRM boats.
My timberwolf -c has pulled 1000+ damage many times. Obviously the more open the map the better it does but I stay with the brawlers. LRM's at 400 dont give much time to get into cover but laser AMS mean you must use them as salvo firing and not a stream of missiles that just get picked off. I haven't played it all since the mad cat 2 came out but Im going to try atm's on it as I often try to get to that 400m range with it.
4*lrm10+Atr, 5*Er med laser. the old timberwolf just doesnt have the torso twisting up close to be a real brawler so I keep it at those ranges that make it work well.
PS: also love the shadow cat with 2 heavy large lasers and 3 heavy MAC guns. man can she do some damage.
Alexander of Macedon, on 09 August 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:
The really telling point is that none of the lurmboat apologists have switched over to ATMs. If they actually meant their own arguments, they would.
After all, ATMs are very similar to LRMs in MWO, except they have much better potential damage per ton of ammo and far greater damage density per salvo. ATM24 can burn through 1t of ammo in a bit under 4 salvos for 270 max per ton, while LRM40 takes 9 salvos to burn 1t of ammo for 180 max. Fewer exposures, more damage per hit...
Oh. Right. To use ATMs well you need LoS at short-medium range and good fire discipline. That answers that.
...except I use a mixed LRM/ATM build. Because they work well together.
Just look back at my post history. ATMs actually encourage good use of LRMs as well.
They also help soak up AMS fire that would otherwise decimate the more damaging ATMs, and the mix of velocity, flight path, and bonus close damage tends to result in some very positive match scores. Pure ATM builds are very fragile vs. AMS use, as they lose far more damage per missile killed than LRMs.
Despite Scorch's name, both of us top damage types were using mixed-missile builds here. For that matter, I think Thrase was the pure LRM boat of three of us, and you can see the relatively lower damage despite the kills. I ended up pretty much wiping Bravo (4 solo kills) out all by myself and got a random killshot on the ACH for good measure, and the two enemy survivors did so because they backed off while the VIP was getting taken down at the end.
Edited by Brain Cancer, 09 August 2017 - 08:59 PM.
If I piloted IS robots, I'd wonder how well MRMs work with LRMs.
Unguided and poorer spread, but similar favorable range (around 500m) and unlike ATMs, no minimum range. Maybe that old LRM/SRM 9M hardpoint Archer with MRM 10's instead of SRM 6's.
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Erufen, on 09 August 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:
