279 replies to this topic

[Ruar]

Maker L106, on 09 August 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

As someone who's never played a TT BT game or even a turn based mech game for that matter I'm honestly curious how you think long range projectiles will do ANYTHING in MWO at its current state unless they are quirked PPC level fast. I get it Gauss is good because of PPFLD but the guys saying buff LRM's and remove their locking feature, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of long range, lock based, indirect fire weapon systems? Wouldn't that be beefy as **** MRM's?

The lock system is fine. The delivery method is fine. If its not competitive there's likely a tournament level reason for that. You're only likely to see very specific setups there too that work in only that environment, it isn't what most of us are dealing with. Broaden your scope when thinking about this sort of thing.

Also remember that streaks are good for specific applications as well...

Though now I get to relive what my old CoD / Battlefield forum days were like. "Stopping power is best" *Jammer user face-desks through floor*

Instead of LRMs being a primarily indirect fire weapon they should be changed to primarily a direct fire weapon. Faster velocity and better arc similar to MRMs but with better spread. Then there can still be an indirect fire component that is fairly weak and does area damage instead of the current homing mechanism.

Such a change does require looking at LRMs differently than how we are used to seeing them, but there is no need for an indirect fire weapon in the game. The terrain and flow of fights means people are constantly moving and there is no bunkering behind a chunk of ground as a tactic really.

The problem is people don't want to look at LRMs as a direct fire weapon. They want to keep the low skill, homing, indirect fire system because it's easy.

[Gristle Missile]

Ruar, on 09 August 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

If there was a limit to how many LRMs could be in a match it would work. However, since there is no limit to the number of launchers in a match any type of upgrade while using the homing system will be bad.

Your idea basically means an LRM 80 mech will be applying 80 points of damage to the CT/ST area of a mech before the target can get back in cover. This can be done over and over again because the LRM boat just sits behind cover during the cooldown and heat drop.

Making LRMs more viable while still retaining the nearly skill-less homing mechanism will just put more people using LRMs on the battlefield.

The only way to fix LRMs is to start with getting rid of homing and rebuilding them with a new aiming system.

Not saying your idea is bad, but I just don't see them ever taking away the homing/locks from LRMs - especially since its not a mechanic exclusive to LRMs

Also, LRMs without homing would be too similar to MRMs, no?

Edited by Gristle Missile, 09 August 2017 - 11:25 AM.

[Ruar]

Gristle Missile, on 09 August 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Not saying your idea is bad, but I just don't see them ever taking away the homing/locks from LRMs - especially since its not a mechanic exclusive to LRMs

Also, LRMs without homing would be too similar to MRMs, no?

Every other weapon system in the game is similar in operation between the shorter and longer range options, why should missiles be different?

That said, it would be very easy to keep an indirect fire component to LRMs, ECM has a toggle mode so LRMs could too. LRMs should primarily by direct fire no homing with a toggle that lets them home to a spot of ground like the currently do when they lose target lock. Indirect mode has a bigger spread and higher arc and homes to a piece of terrain. Targets that sit still get hit, targets that move don't get hit.

LRMs are now a skill weapon, have some flair, and are able to be made effective through velocity increase.

[Mystere]

C4NC3R, on 09 August 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

I can aim with a stearing gear. So there'll be any proofs that mek was driven only by foot?

Was there even proof that the mouse was actually working and connected to the PC?

<could not be bothered to watch video>

Wil McCullough, on 09 August 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

apparently not. or you wouldn't be averaging 0.68 kdr and a 0.45 wlr in season 13.

What about joystick + throttle + rudder pedals + iPads?

Edited by Mystere, 09 August 2017 - 11:37 AM.

[Maker L106]

It could also be done easily enough with two fighting game arcade sticks set to different inputs. Or a potato, games have been beaten with a potato... or the guitar hero controller... can isn't optimum of course but I'd rather this thread focus on ways to either improve LRM use (be it the player or the teamwork) or work to find a way that reworks the system without loosing the lock on feature as Indirect fire is often misunderstood.

To be clear, I've no issue with speeding them up, giving them select fire modes (indirect vs direct etc: ) I just want them to WORK when done and not be an artilary / air strike that you equip to the mech then have to pay tonnage for. It's bad enough the way they play out being support weapons. God forbid the LRMs get buffed to "broken LRMageddon" again or turn out to get nerf batted to literal foam rockets.

@Ruar : I like that suggestion pretty well. The big question that goes in on the back end of that is what about the NARC / Tag mechanics? Same as now /w the tracking and just having a select fire option for Direct Engagement? Now that i've said that out loud, in my head, that doesn't sound too bad.

[Ruar]

Maker L106, on 09 August 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

It could also be done easily enough with two fighting game arcade sticks set to different inputs. Or a potato, games have been beaten with a potato... or the guitar hero controller... can isn't optimum of course but I'd rather this thread focus on ways to either improve LRM use (be it the player or the teamwork) or work to find a way that reworks the system without loosing the lock on feature as Indirect fire is often misunderstood.

To be clear, I've no issue with speeding them up, giving them select fire modes (indirect vs direct etc: ) I just want them to WORK when done and not be an artilary / air strike that you equip to the mech then have to pay tonnage for. It's bad enough the way they play out being support weapons. God forbid the LRMs get buffed to "broken LRMageddon" again or turn out to get nerf batted to literal foam rockets.

@Ruar : I like that suggestion pretty well. The big question that goes in on the back end of that is what about the NARC / Tag mechanics? Same as now /w the tracking and just having a select fire option for Direct Engagement? Now that i've said that out loud, in my head, that doesn't sound too bad.

Instead of NARC and TAG being an increase to homing I would have them increase the damage done. Something like NARC being a 5% boost and TAG being a 7% boost on top of providing a targeting carat for the rest of the team. I wouldn't have them do anything for indirect fire mode because indirect fire should be the weakest option in the game for damage.

[Mystere]

Ruar, on 09 August 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Instead of NARC and TAG being an increase to homing I would have them increase the damage done. Something like NARC being a 5% boost and TAG being a 7% boost on top of providing a targeting carat for the rest of the team. I wouldn't have them do anything for indirect fire mode because indirect fire should be the weakest option in the game for damage.

That's too illogical for me. Improving the missile spread is better.

[Ruar]

Mystere, on 09 August 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

That's too illogical for me. Improving the missile spread is better.

NARC and TAG don't work for SRMs or MRMs so how could they work on a direct fire version of LRMs? Those two weapons would need adjustments as well to make LRMs work in MWO.

[Mystere]

Ruar, on 09 August 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

NARC and TAG don't work for SRMs or MRMs so how could they work on a direct fire version of LRMs? Those two weapons would need adjustments as well to make LRMs work in MWO.

You're right. Therefore, they should too.

[Brain Cancer]

Played like a true lurmtato. He got one good target courtesy of the Annhilator (which along with the Dire Whale are the ideal lurmfarming targets) and an equally potato Battlemaster who despite having all the available cover you could want in Mining, failed to take advantage of it. Frequently shot without locks, even managed to clip one of his team in the legs with an LRM 15.

And then of course he stood there and died horribly the second anyone actually focused a laser crosshair on him, courtesy of the MCII. A better example of how bad lurmers actually get any match score cannot be found, as Juju would have to use his foot to match their abominable piloting skills with their hand. Honestly, with that ideal a bunch of targets, I'd have been drooling on my missile boat- that would have been a 4-kill+, four digit game.

On Mining. Which sucks 99% of the time for LRMs, because you have to have brainless targets to actually hit more than once or twice, never mind the utter mauling he got on those assaults.
LRMs punish mistakes. His victims were two terrible, terribad assault jocks.

Bonus: He got decked by ATMs.

[Brain Cancer]

JediPanther, on 09 August 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

lrms do take some skill to use. I've been using them since beta. With rule of 3 mech to master gone mechs with ecm get fielded a lot moreyou must have a good spotter, a heavy investment in counter ecm tech and a lot of points into sensors because being a lrm-er now sucks. Except for polar highlands (the lrm friendly map of the game) any lrm heavy team will get steam rolled by a laser and ac heavy team. The sniper friendly frozen city favors sniper and long range acs so those people have their map.

In order to use lrms on the is side you need a bare minimal investment of:
1.5 tons for bap
1 ton for tag laser
3 tons for command console for the lock on time reduction or
1-7 tons for targeting computers
2-10 ton for weight of the launchers minus artemis if your potato cheap
5-6 tons for lrm ammo which isn't going to last if you want to spam it all match long or use 15-20 lrm
.5 to 1 ton for case if you want std engine to keep that ammo from exploding with st loss.

That is 20 tons of equipment to get past ecm's mere 1.5 tons. Good luck using an old build and mech such as CPLT-C1 Max lrm.
On polar lrmlands you might have some luck with it. The rest not so much.

Command Consoles and tarcomps do nothing for LRMs.

They don't reduce lockon time. They reduce the amount of time it takes to get a paperdoll of the target's damage.

You're an IS lurmboat? LFE, Beagle, Artemis your launchers, don't stint on the ammo too much, bring some backup lasers. TAG or NARC is nice, but if you decided to mount a decent laser or three, optional.

There you go. You're a better missile boater than the guy I quoted, because you now know more than he did.

[Mole]

Ruar, on 09 August 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

I very much agree that LRMs are best used as a supplementary weapon and shouldn't be the primary weapon system. Even on dedicated missile boats like the Catapult and Archer the LRMs should be supplementing energy weapons.

I realize this isn't how it works in lore/TT but the problem is the homing mechanic prevents LRMs from being made into truly effective weapons. As long as they are homing they can't be strong. The best thing PGI could do was get rid of the homing mechanic and put in something else to allow LRMs to be a skill weapon that rewards good play. Which has been discussed on countless threads and PGI still does nothing.

What's great about using LRMs as a sidekick weapon, especially on my Archer, is people always see me lobbing LRMs at them and just assume that if they close they will be safe. Then they get punched in the face by a bunch of SRMs and you can just feel them seething with WTF when they get torn to shreds in a brawl by an "LRM boat".

[STEF_]

mogs01gt, on 09 August 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

. LRMS are easy as **** to use, barely get any kills but keeps you in a safe position.

aaaaaah yes! and that's another side effect why lrm sucks: lurmers don't share armor.

[Brain Cancer]

Ruar, on 09 August 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Instead of LRMs being a primarily indirect fire weapon they should be changed to primarily a direct fire weapon. Faster velocity and better arc similar to MRMs but with better spread. Then there can still be an indirect fire component that is fairly weak and does area damage instead of the current homing mechanism.

Grats, you basically described an IS version of ATMs. An inferior one, since they have a 180m deadzone and don't increase damage as you close in.

It's not hard to make LRMs better. Improve velocity (more so in direct fire), flatter arc when firing directly, straight (SRM) style shooting without locks but IDF speed, normalized spread for all launchers.

LRMs have the highest basic "help" of all weapons, being lock-ons that firing in a terrain-bypassing arc. (Streaks and ATMs are close, but take direct shots and more effort to potentially have a clear lane of fire)

It also means they're the hardest to improve past that level, given that merely aiming better doesn't increase their capacity. A crystal ball might, because they're also a predictive weapon- heck, so are ATMs. The further the target, the more you have to guess if the target is going to be there when your shot arrives. Past 500m, it's pot luck. If your targets better at dodging basic LRM fire, you either get creative or you get double digit damage and dead. Enemy team has a cluster of AMS carriers/pesky ECM? Find a position and targets you can pick on it from the edge of the missilekill bubble or do nothing with your launchers, wasting time and shots and dying with ammo in your launchers that should have been hitting an enemy. Any enemy. Don't know how to figure that out? Welcome to learning some missile boat skills. Have you learned to properly missilepoke (lock from cover, get LOS, fire, recover?) to minimize spread and facetime? Proper UAV placement so they don't get shot down in under 10 seconds? When it's safe to flank for better fire? When and why it's worth burning ammo to disrupt/kill enemy lights vs. useless frustration shots, and why destroying the enemy light screen is so critical for your better play? Can you flick your launchers to fire around cover? Are you able to predict where an intermittent lock is going so a long-range shot can have a chance to recover and still nail it's target? Can you sort targets quickly and read when they're going to ground and how fast to minimize wasted shots?

There's plenty to learn as a missile boater. And if you want to do better, you have to. And even if you do, you're still slaved to the most temperamental weapon systems in MWO, but there is nothing more satisfying than legit topping the team board.

[Ruar]

Brain Cancer, on 09 August 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

Grats, you basically described an IS version of ATMs. An inferior one, since they have a 180m deadzone and don't increase damage as you close in.

It's not hard to make LRMs better. Improve velocity (more so in direct fire), flatter arc when firing directly, straight (SRM) style shooting without locks but IDF speed, normalized spread for all launchers.

LRMs have the highest basic "help" of all weapons, being lock-ons that firing in a terrain-bypassing arc. (Streaks and ATMs are close, but take direct shots and more effort to potentially have a clear lane of fire)

It also means they're the hardest to improve past that level, given that merely aiming better doesn't increase their capacity. A crystal ball might, because they're also a predictive weapon- heck, so are ATMs. The further the target, the more you have to guess if the target is going to be there when your shot arrives. Past 500m, it's pot luck. If your targets better at dodging basic LRM fire, you either get creative or you get double digit damage and dead. Enemy team has a cluster of AMS carriers/pesky ECM? Find a position and targets you can pick on it from the edge of the missilekill bubble or do nothing with your launchers, wasting time and shots and dying with ammo in your launchers that should have been hitting an enemy. Any enemy. Don't know how to figure that out? Welcome to learning some missile boat skills. Have you learned to properly missilepoke (lock from cover, get LOS, fire, recover?) to minimize spread and facetime? Proper UAV placement so they don't get shot down in under 10 seconds? When it's safe to flank for better fire? When and why it's worth burning ammo to disrupt/kill enemy lights vs. useless frustration shots, and why destroying the enemy light screen is so critical for your better play? Can you flick your launchers to fire around cover? Are you able to predict where an intermittent lock is going so a long-range shot can have a chance to recover and still nail it's target? Can you sort targets quickly and read when they're going to ground and how fast to minimize wasted shots?

There's plenty to learn as a missile boater. And if you want to do better, you have to. And even if you do, you're still slaved to the most temperamental weapon systems in MWO, but there is nothing more satisfying than legit topping the team board.

I see LRMs as a support weapon and not to be boated. Which is why I think they should have the homing removed and turned into long range direct fire weapons. Indirect fire should just be a bit of flavor.

[InspectorG]

Mang, y'all potatoe scrubbles don't even know what skill truly is.

Get 700 DAMAGES in a Spider-V using a foot pedal+ WiiMote(for typing).

You Brown Sea no W pressing taters haven't even discussed the sublime skill of sub-150m brawling with IS LRMs.

MY LEVEL. YOU CANNOT ATTAIN SUCH GREATNESS. GO BACK TO MARIOPARTY.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

What's great about using LRMs as a sidekick weapon, especially on my Archer, is people always see me lobbing LRMs at them and just assume that if they close they will be safe. Then they get punched in the face by a bunch of SRMs and you can just feel them seething with WTF when they get torn to shreds in a brawl by an "LRM boat".

I use Clan boats, so I mix LRMs and ATMs. ATMs are at 2-damage in the same rangebands as LRMs are accurate, after all- so I'll frequently be slamming both into opponents at that range.

People frequently, and fatally assume that if they see LRMs, all I have is LRMs. Maybe a laser or two (I do carry a few ERML or HML to work with my ATMs/burn holes to exploit.). They come in thinking all I'm going to do is sprinkle them with dings as they brawl my face off. Pure LRMs are easiest to work against, after all. They're well known as to weaknesses, timing, etc.

I do love getting those brawling bonuses as my 21 ATMs slot into their maximum damage bracket and suddenly, my opponent doesn't have any armor anymore from the alpha strike. Or if he didn't have all his armor, he doesn't have much of anything. I had not one, not two, but an entire lance of medium/heavies on Grim Plexus get sucked in by that tactic, which was 4 kills, all soloed with a fifth light kill for an afterdinner mint because he was trying to run circles around the main team body.

Quote

aaaaaah yes! and that's another side effect why lrm sucks: lurmers don't share armor.

If a lurmer isn't sharing armor, he's hiding somewhere, His missiles have crappy spread because no Artemis and he can't get LOS to missilepoke properly. His range is inferior, so accuracy suffers- and then it suffers more because all he uses are parasitic IDF lock-ons. He fails to distract the enemy or punish them quickly for exposure, so their fire is more telling. And he's a juicy target for lights and mediums to hunt down and ez-kill, because if he isn't close enough to share armor, the team isn't close enough to get the hunter off his back, kill it easily, and get a kill advantage in the process.

In other words, he fails at missile boating and has learned nothing beyond what Juju can do with his foot.

[C4NC3R]

Mystere, on 09 August 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

The question is, can you beat my steering wheel?

Sure, that would fit?

Spoiler

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

I see LRMs as a support weapon and not to be boated. Which is why I think they should have the homing removed and turned into long range direct fire weapons. Indirect fire should just be a bit of flavor.

What is this magical realm you live in where any weapon is worth using isn't worth boating? Heck, we'll even boat heavy gauss or AC/20's.

"Support weapon" is just another name for "useless junk that should be replaced with another laser" with what you want done. Spread weapons are trash in direct fire unless they have some kind of gimmick (or can be loaded up so much that it effectively negates the spread drawback). (Reasonably) Accurate indirect fire. Increased damage with better positioning. Increased critical damage- HA! I can't finish that one, poor LB-X users. I'm sorry.

[Ruar]

Brain Cancer, on 09 August 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

What is this magical realm you live in where any weapon is worth using isn't worth boating? Heck, we'll even boat heavy gauss or AC/20's.

"Support weapon" is just another name for "useless junk that should be replaced with another laser" with what you want done. Spread weapons are trash in direct fire unless they have some kind of gimmick (or can be loaded up so much that it effectively negates the spread drawback). (Reasonably) Accurate indirect fire. Increased damage with better positioning. Increased critical damage- HA! I can't finish that one, poor LB-X users. I'm sorry.

And I disagree, but there's no point in continuing since you have an answer for it all.