87 replies to this topic

[Ruar]

HGAK47, on 21 August 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Wait why do they need to be cut down? So we can all be shoehorned into brawl warrior online? What if people enjoy playing the sniper role or long range support? What about lights that like to use that space to circle around and attempt to backstab and lay sneaky airstrikes accross an advancing line?

That is probably the tip of the iceberg but forcing everyone into your view of how to play the game is going to rustle some feathers.

Canyon and Mining Colony are two of the smallest maps, yet have more than enough room to do what you are talking about. The problem with large maps and only a few players is going 5-8 minutes of two teams wandering around trying to sneak up on each other but moving farther and farther away.

I realize a quick retort would be "but that's why lights have to scout" to which the counter is if lights are out scouting they'll meet up, fight, and then one team will have a 2-0 or 2-1 advantage from the start and then be able to scout the other team who is already short handed. So yeah... fun. And it still could lead to the teams not engaging if the light fight happens far enough away from the main body.

I don't play scouting mode, but do the 4 man fights use the same size maps as the 12?

[Alan Davion]

Ruar, on 21 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

I don't play scouting mode, but do the 4 man fights use the same size maps as the 12?

I believe they do, yes.

[DAYLEET]

Wildstreak, on 21 August 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Seen comments where some people think you just flip a switch and boom, it works.

Nope.

Here is my list of what actually MUST be done to make 8v8 work in QP Queues:

1 Shrink Maps - some existing maps are large so boundaries need to be shrunk. List includes
Alpine Peaks
Forest Colony
Frozen City (not as much but does need be done)
Grim Plexus (not as much but does need be done)
Polar Highlands
River City (not as much but does need be done)
Terra Therma

I would even say cut down all maps larger than 10x10 to that size, same size as Crimson Strait, Tourmaline Desert and Viridian Bog.

2 Redesign Content on Maps - Now that some maps are smaller, they need to redo how things work. Spawn Points, Conquest Nodes, Assault and Incursion bases, Escort Paths and Domination points. Look at non-shrunken maps too like Crimson Strait needing spawn fixes in Domination.

3 Escort Fixes - Might as well cut down Escort Paths per map to 3 maximum instead of 4-5 like now. Too many times players go one way, Escort goes another especially on bigger maps. Rarely does that work for Defender. Might as well also look at Escort fixes like either it shoots back at nearest target or replace it with a player.

While looking like 3 easy steps, this involves some work time. You just do not want half the maps being bigger than they need be.

one step forward, one giant leap backward!

[DAYLEET]

KursedVixen, on 21 August 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Escort and incursion really need removed. they are hardly played.

No what we need is game mode choice like we had before. ITs too late to try and save the gamed with bucket fix. Make the game right and hope people come back instead.

[Bigbacon]

Let us hope it doest happen

[Alan Davion]

DAYLEET, on 21 August 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

No what we need is game mode choice like we had before. ITs too late to try and save the gamed with bucket fix. Make the game right and hope people come back instead.

Personally, I'm of the belief that, with the game so unbelievably screwed up at this point in time, PGI would have to start over from scratch in order to "make the game right", and we all know that's not gonna happen.

[Fleeb the Mad]

HGAK47, on 21 August 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Wait why do they need to be cut down? So we can all be shoehorned into brawl warrior online? What if people enjoy playing the sniper role or long range support? What about lights that like to use that space to circle around and attempt to backstab and lay sneaky airstrikes accross an advancing line?

That is probably the tip of the iceberg but forcing everyone into your view of how to play the game is going to rustle some feathers.

What sort of game do you think we have right now?

It's not the one that caters to brawling. I am tired of the campfest. You want to be a specialized sniper you need to actually accept some risks. At the moment it's much too easy.

[jss78]

I'm not really sure any maps need to be edited, having played scouting on Forest Colony etc. Also, I'm 100% sure PGI wouldn't even consider the change if they thought the workload of editing maps will become necessary.

I'm also not convinced it'll result in more of the maps being used. People go to the same spot out of habit, and I see no reason why they'd cease doing it with a smaller teams. TTK and frame rates will go up, and I think that'll be it.

I do favour 8 vs 8, especially as we now have 12 vs 12 available in FW. With 1-2-3 lance teams available in different game modes, this change will enrich the gameplay.

Edited by jss78, 21 August 2017 - 05:38 PM.

[El Bandito]

Wildstreak, on 21 August 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Seen comments where some people think you just flip a switch and boom, it works.

Nope.

Here is my list of what actually MUST be done to make 8v8 work in QP Queues:

1 Shrink Maps - some existing maps are large so boundaries need to be shrunk. List includes
Alpine Peaks
Forest Colony
Frozen City (not as much but does need be done)
Grim Plexus (not as much but does need be done)
Polar Highlands
River City (not as much but does need be done)
Terra Therma

I would even say cut down all maps larger than 10x10 to that size, same size as Crimson Strait, Tourmaline Desert and Viridian Bog.

Disagree. Alpine for example, worked back in 8v8, and we didn't race for the hill every time.

[Pariah Devalis]

Ruar, on 21 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

I don't play scouting mode, but do the 4 man fights use the same size maps as the 12?

They do, and far more of the maps are used. For example, the beach on the far side of Forest Colony is often utilized, virtually all of Polar Highlands is fair game, the entirety of River City is used, and I've had fights in at least three distinct sections of Terra Therma. The only times the fights are cut and dry predictable at the start of the match is when the data nodes are disproportionately clumped, such as Crimson Straights along the D and C line.

[Ruar]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 August 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

They do, and far more of the maps are used. For example, the beach on the far side of Forest Colony is often utilized, virtually all of Polar Highlands is fair game, the entirety of River City is used, and I've had fights in at least three distinct sections of Terra Therma. The only times the fights are cut and dry predictable at the start of the match is when the data nodes are disproportionately clumped, such as Crimson Straights along the D and C line.

Now imagine that same scouting match being done but with 48-64kph mechs. How would that change the way fights happen?

[Pariah Devalis]

Ruar, on 21 August 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

Now imagine that same scouting match being done but with 48-64kph mechs. How would that change the way fights happen?

You'd need to find the enemy team first. I wonder if there is a weight class that can fill that role in warfare.

[Ruar]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 August 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

You'd need to find the enemy team first. I wonder if there is a weight class that can fill that role in warfare.

Excellent point, too bad you are avoiding the outcome of what will happen with only 8 people on a large map and 50% of those people travel 70kph or slower.

[Pariah Devalis]

Ruar, on 21 August 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Excellent point, too bad you are avoiding the outcome of what will happen with only 8 people on a large map and 50% of those people travel 70kph or slower.

I am not. 50% of the mechs need to rely on the allies to locate the enemy. It's called teamwork. God forbid we have that in a team game.

Scouting does not require engagement with the enemy, something I see a lot of light pilots forgot. It simply requires identifying their position and relaying that back to the team. If team A finds team B first, team B is at a disadvantage. If the other way round, vice versa. Results of teamwork and communication.

However, both teams have a lower overall weight of fire. This means any scout is slightly less likely to be lit like a Christmas tree when they find the enemy. Further, while any one mech would still vaporize in front of 8 mechs, the odds of any one mech being in front of as many guns as they are now is overall lower, leading to a potential increase in TTK. It certainly will not lower it.

Because the fight takes longer, and takes place over a larger potential area of the map, the dynamics of the fight improve. Defensive and offensive positions that would be too small for 12 mechs can be more readily used by 8.

I for one look forward to it all.

[Wildstreak]

Just to be clear, this is not the same as when they made existing maps bigger. Then they had to add tiles of terrain that did not exist. This time all they would have to do is move boundaries without needing to remove tiles.
They could keep boundaries where they are for FP since they have 12v12. QP would use the same maps with changed boundaries for a smaller location.

I made up the list after looking at all maps from Smurfy's site.

Also Scouting Mode uses more map space because of the various Scouting beacons players need to find scattered all over the maps. QP Modes do not have that, closest is Conquest with the 5 nodes and they were moved closer together to prevent problems even with 12v12.

Ruar, on 21 August 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Agreed even though I'm still hoping 8v8 is cancelled. I'd also add HPG to your list of maps that are too big because it would need the spawn points moved inside the crater walls instead of outside at the least.

Conquest will need a lot of work to move the points closer.

What's sad is they could resize a lot of the maps now and add them into the current rotation for 12v12. They could double the number of maps simply be resizing some boundaries and providing fighting in areas where no fighting normally occurs. I'm not saying resize and remove... I'm saying resize and add. Polar could easily be turned into four different maps.

Disagree on HPG, if you check Smufy's map section at the above link, HPG is an 8x8 map, smaller than 3 others (Crimson, Tourmaline, Viridian) so it should not be a problem. In truth Crimson, Tourmaline and Viridian when you look at the actual play area are also 8v8 maps so if HPG is too big so are they but I do not think so.

I understand your Resize and Add argument, it is an interesting point.

KodiakGW, on 21 August 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

To all saying maps need to be resized before it happens, here is some history.

Alpine released February 2013
https://mwomercs.com...90-19-feb-2013/

Tourmaline released March 2013
https://mwomercs.com...04-19-mar-2013/

Change from 8v8 to 12v12 -August 2013
https://mwomercs.com...35-06-aug-2013/

Now, I could be wrong, but I believe those two maps have not changed in size since they were implemented. So, we were playing on these "huge" (check the links, their words, not mine) maps for about 6 months before 12v12 came along. I seem to recall not having any issue with them. In fact, sometimes they actually ended with a win that wasn't destroying all enemy mechs...unlike now.

Personally, I'd like to see a Escort game ending with only a MLX left trying to chew through a fresh VIP with their 8LMG and 3ERSL as it slowly lumbers toward the dropship.

First Tourmaline is not on my list. It is a 10v10 map (chack Smurfy's link above) and the actual fighting area is more like 8v8.

So the only really huge map we had before was Alpine and people are forgetting something specific that happened there usually in Conquest but sometimes in other modes that drove MANY players crazy. Remember it.

HGAK47, on 21 August 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Wait why do they need to be cut down? So we can all be shoehorned into brawl warrior online? What if people enjoy playing the sniper role or long range support? What about lights that like to use that space to circle around and attempt to backstab and lay sneaky airstrikes accross an advancing line?

That is probably the tip of the iceberg but forcing everyone into your view of how to play the game is going to rustle some feathers.

There are 7 maps (half the total we have now) not on my list that allow sniping and long range. Check the list. Does Tourmaline, Crimson and Viridian not allow long range? Those are the 3 biggest NOT listed.

[1453 R]

Nobody needs to shrink maps for 8v8. We can just have bigger maps; people already know their way around these maps, and having less 'Mechs in the same size spaces gives more room for maneuver. If you have trouble finding the enemy, then maybe invest in some extra mobility and the Sensors tree.

8v8 felt better than 12v12 ever did; company-sized actions just feel cluttered too often. Looking forward to trying it on newer maps with better options for movement.

[KodiakGW]

Wildstreak, on 22 August 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

So the only really huge map we had before was Alpine and people are forgetting something specific that happened there usually in Conquest but sometimes in other modes that drove MANY players crazy. Remember it.

Since you won't elaborate I assume you mean something along the lines of...

KodiakGW, on 21 August 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

In fact, sometimes they actually ended with a win that wasn't destroying all enemy mechs...unlike now.

Are you talking about the times in Conquest where a match was won by some pair of lights running around capping points like crazy? You know, playing the game mode. Don't remember that as much, especially now that the majority of the cap points are in the same area.

Or, can I assume you are talking about those times when the lemmings to the north west took the long way around eastward, and the lemmings to the south east did the same westward, not seeing each other all the way into the opposite team base. Then sit and cap. Still happened when changed to 12v12....

...until they changed the spawn points. But, yes, it was upsetting to know I was the only one going to get killed trying to slow them down.

Alpine is the one map when I have seen battles change location based on spawn points. F8 Com tower a long time ago. I9 Mountain for the longest time afterward. Now mostly K8 Hill area and H7 Valley to I7 Hill, depending on mode. Still going to see that happen even if we change back, due to spawn points and control points being where they are.

Wildstreak, on 22 August 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

First Tourmaline is not on my list. It is a 10v10 map (chack Smurfy's link above) and the actual fighting area is more like 8v8.

Tourmaline is still a pretty big map. Not sure when you play, or which queue you are in, but every map you listed also has the majority of their fights happen in the same general places in my experience. Just like Tourmaline. Every game mode is basically who can NASCAR better around those few skirmish points. That is until all but one player on losing team is dead, then the winning team finishes the game by doing the game mode objectives. Maybe all those people upset that "every game mode devolves into Skirmish" might be able to finally edge out a win by playing the mode. But, rest assured that if you are against playing the game mode, they still will get minimal rewards unless they actually participate in a battle.

[mogs01gt]

N0ni, on 21 August 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

Considering the majority of the map space (of all maps currently in 12v12 QP) are not used and are focused around the same small key points, i say leave maps as they are right now going back into 8v8.

Or just leave QP as 12v12.

(Would rather keep it 12v12, don't fix something that isn't broken.)

The game is currently broken. The maps need to be twice the size and proper objectives to support 12v12 but since people have the attention spans of a goldfish, the maps are kept small.

Edited by mogs01gt, 22 August 2017 - 10:12 AM.

[Bigbacon]

mogs01gt, on 22 August 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

The game is currently broken. The maps need to be twice the size and proper objectives to support 12v12 but since people have the attention spans of a goldfish, the maps are kept small.

hold on...the maps do not need to be bigger to support 12v12....the maps are HUGE (mostly) except no one uses 90% of the map to go fight. even smaller maps like HPG are totally fine with 24 mechs running about.

12v12 is fine, it works, it give you plenty of options to play. 8v8 will just force two murder balls to brawl it out with no deviation from that because no one will go try to flank or do other things because there isn't enough mechs to do that.

No more light groups harassing flanks, no more split up battles where stuff is happening in multiple areas, no more anything fun except everyone go to point X on map, get focus melted....

you play any mech other than some meta mechs in a perfect meta build.

as someone said 12v12 IS NOT BROKEN DON'T FIX IT.

Edited by Bigbacon, 22 August 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bigbacon, on 22 August 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

12v12 is fine, it works, it give you plenty of options to play. 8v8 will just force two murder balls to brawl it out with no deviation from that because no one will go try to flank or do other things because there isn't enough mechs to do that.

8v8 gives you more options of play because less fields of fire means more viable approaches. 12v12 actually encourages more static engagements (because again, more fields of fire equals fewer approaches). 4v4 is as you describe 8v8s though because there isn't enough people to cover angles to prevent a murderball from just running over range oriented teams.

8v8 is honestly the happy medium, enough people to still play ranged just fine while still having mid-short still be reasonable to use.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2017 - 10:51 AM.