97 replies to this topic

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

I meant "their purpose within the context of the game". If we went with pure TT rules, there would literally be little use for them.

And it was a mistake that needs to be fixed now that they added more MG types and mechs that can boat them.

[Methanoid]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

If they have to keep the crit aspect then either the crit bonus has to be tuned way down, ROF reduced, or heat added to balance. Right now the ability to just shred through internals is too much.

the balance is that they cant just go straight to internals, theres all that juicy armor to get through and MG's suck vs armor. the OP's test took him 6.5 seconds of firing once the armor was stripped, 6.5sec using pinpoint accuracy on the rear structure isnt any indication of IRL use in a proper match, also how long does it take without those lasers stripping off the armor first, just using raw MG power.

MG's are far from overpowered, even if they do crit internals to bits, they have to get to the internals first.

Edited by Methanoid, 24 August 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[Ruar]

Methanoid, on 24 August 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

the balance is that they cant just go straight to internals, theres all that juicy armor to get through and MG's suck vs armor. the OP's test took him 6.5 seconds of firing once the armor was stripped, 6.5sec using pinpoint accuracy on the rear structure isnt any indication of IRL use in a proper match, also how long does it take without those lasers stripping off the armor first, just using raw MG power.

MG's are far from overpowered, even if they do crit internals to bits, they have to get to the internals first.

6.5 seconds on one of the heaviest armored mechs in the game....

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

And it was a mistake that needs to be fixed now that they added more MG types and mechs that can boat them

So, what you're saying is that since in they're basically useless against anything other than infantry in TT, they should be nerfed into uselessness in-game. Got it. What would be the purpose of light mechs with multiple ballistic slots in a game with no infantry then? Not only is you suggestion a nerf to mgs themselves, but a big slap to light mechs in general, since they now find themselves with slots that literally have no value.

Quote

6.5 seconds on one of the heaviest armored mechs in the game....

Most mechs that manage to get behind an assault can core its back in under 10 seconds if it doesn't move or defend itself somehow. Myst Lynxes did not invent the backstab.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 12:43 PM.

[InfinityBall]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm not missing the point. You are. I can potentially build an ACH that can put 60-70 dmg over 1.5-2 seconds with 6-7 HMLs

Good lord, you can. I must try this and make myself explode horribly

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

So, what you're saying is that since in they're basically useless against anything other than infantry in TT, they should be nerfed into uselessness in-game. Got it. What would be the purpose of light mechs with multiple ballistic slots in a game with no infantry then? Not only is you suggestion a nerf to mgs themselves, but a big slap to light mechs in general, since they now find themselves with slots that literally have no value.



Most mechs that manage behind an assault can core it's back in under 10 seconds if it doesn't move or defend itself somehow. Myst Lynxes did not invent the backstab.

It's called 0 heat DPS. The fact you think that has no value shows there's no point in continuing this discussion.

[Methanoid]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

And yet with all that you just said people are flocking to the MG builds for some strange reason.

maybe because ppl can easily and affordably try out an 8mg light, and that "flocking" you mention is just them skilling them up, ive recently got the MLX-A and SHARD to skill up, both are 8x LMG setups and im playing them a lot atm just because i need those 91 skill points for each, after their done ill resume back to skilling something else.

[Methanoid]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

6.5 seconds on one of the heaviest armored mechs in the game....

A stationary mech that previously had ALL its armor stripped off before the MG's touched that structure, THEN it took 6.5 seconds. How about you redo that timer including armor.

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

It's called 0 heat DPS. The fact you think that has no value shows there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Zero heat DPS that requires tons of time on target to be effective and if you're forced to dance to avoid fire or target a specific component on a mech active defending itself you're spreading damage all over it in such a way that all that awesome dps is basically worthless.

Why don't you purchase an MLX-G and stuff it with 8x mgs and ammo and dance around the Atlas in circles spraying rounds all over its armor and then come back and talk to us about "effective DPS" in an active firefight/evasion-type scenario. Don't cheat and stand still and shoot; keep moving the whole time and target just one part as you pass it. I assure you, you'd be better served using SMRs or lasers.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 12:57 PM.

[AphexTwin11]

MagicIndex, on 24 August 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

As sooner PGI do this, as better. Cause... there since TT is only two weapons which are leggit to do crits: PPC's and Gauss.
Not counting LB-X. MG's against mechs? You must be kidding? MG's are anti-infantry weapon where it must stay.

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Zero heat DPS that requires tons of time on target to be effective and if you're forced to dance to avoid fire or target a specific component on a mech active defending itsel you're spreading damage all over it in such a way that all that awesome dps is basically worthless.

Why don't you purchase an MLX-G and stuff it with 8x mgs and ammo and dance around the Atlas in circles spraying rounds all over its armor and then come back and talk to us about "effective DPS" in an active firefight/evasion-type scenario.

Nah, because I'm not going to go up against the assaults like that. If I was going to play an MLX (I won't because I don't like clans) then I'd take out mediums and heavies. Because work smarter not harder and stuff.

It's kind of moot anyway, after the matches this week it's clear I need to take a break from the game. I'm tired of logging off with my blood pressure up and being more frustrated with life. I play games to relax and there's not much about MWO that is relaxing right now.

[Judah Malganis]

The point is, you can be forced into that scenario if they defend themselves, and all your DPS goes wasted, even if you're going against a heavy or medium. Even lights can handle a surprising amount of mg fire if they're evading you.

[AphexTwin11]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

Nah, because I'm not going to go up against the assaults like that. If I was going to play an MLX (I won't because I don't like clans) then I'd take out mediums and heavies. Because work smarter not harder and stuff.

It's kind of moot anyway, after the matches this week it's clear I need to take a break from the game. I'm tired of logging off with my blood pressure up and being more frustrated with life. I play games to relax and there's not much about MWO that is relaxing right now.

This sort-of confirms what I originally thought - you've actually never used one, and from that vantage point, have no idea what you're talking about. All things equal, Assaults & slow heavies are THE most vulnerable to the MLX-G.

Go ahead - use an MLX-G, equip with 8x HMG or LMG and see how 'easy button' it is, please.

It's okay though - I used to make silly arguments on the forums against IS tech/for Clan tech while never actually using IS tech or facing Clan as an IS pilot when I was a wee potato just starting out in MWO. Since then, I've gone out of my way to create another IS-only account to really learn more about tech I'm not familiar with so that I can opine on it in a (hopefully) meaningful way.

"I got killed by MLX-G rawr!" is not a good case for what you're saying, which is basically the argument.

There are so many disadvantages to an MLX boating MG's that it seems absolutely ridiculous for people (such as yourself) to claim they're OP, or in the extreme as others have done, game breaking. You would know if you actually used one - seriously, do it - they're not that expensive and you might learn something.

Edited by AphexTwin11, 24 August 2017 - 01:09 PM.

[Ruar]

Meh. Last match, I'm running a catapult with 4xmpl and 2x asrm6. Team sucks, won't push, we're losing and I'm trying to shift flanks so hopefully I can still get in some damage with the 4 mpl I have left. CT cored but only orange so maybe I can make it work some. Then an ACH with MGs gets on me. I give him my back and try to snap off some shots but the one time I line up a shot he crits out 3 lasers. Less than a second of exposure and my weapons are gone. Because somehow that is balanced and fun. Especially since we all know just how bad hit regarding is ok not fast moving mechs.

Stop trying to feed me your BS about MGs being fine. They aren't but that's how it always is when something is OP. The users deflect all they can while the rest just hope it ends soon.

Enjoy having one less target on the field to shoot at.

[AncientRaig]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Meh. Last match, I'm running a catapult with 4xmpl and 2x asrm6. Team sucks, won't push, we're losing and I'm trying to shift flanks so hopefully I can still get in some damage with the 4 mpl I have left. CT cored but only orange so maybe I can make it work some. Then an ACH with MGs gets on me. I give him my back and try to snap off some shots but the one time I line up a shot he crits out 3 lasers. Less than a second of exposure and my weapons are gone. Because somehow that is balanced and fun. Especially since we all know just how bad hit regarding is ok not fast moving mechs.

Stop trying to feed me your BS about MGs being fine. They aren't but that's how it always is when something is OP. The users deflect all they can while the rest just hope it ends soon.

Enjoy having one less target on the field to shoot at.

Yeah. Like, I get that people want MGs to be useful but an instant weapon remover isn't the way to go. I've been having the same thing happen to my CT lasers on things like the Centurion. The second I lose armor I can kiss my weapons goodbye.

[Y E O N N E]

Having equipment destroyed after expending all armor in a component is less balanced than being able to have your equipment destroyed in one go on a fully armored component because...?

I mean, I hate the crit system because it provides disproportionate rewards to effort expended, but from a balance perspective it is absolutely reasonable that a 'Mech that is all but useless in the early game can make up for it in the late game.

[Methanoid]

AncientRaig, on 24 August 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

Yeah. Like, I get that people want MGs to be useful but an instant weapon remover isn't the way to go. I've been having the same thing happen to my CT lasers on things like the Centurion. The second I lose armor I can kiss my weapons goodbye.

"Instant" you mean instant once its managed to chew through all the armor first, if the light is still alive after getting through the armor.

[Cato Zilks]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

6.5 seconds on one of the heaviest armored mechs in the game....

You clearly missed the part where that guy used lasers to open up the back (30 damage, so 2 laser damage to the internals)

[roboPrancer]

I have no problem with the niche that MG's have for themselves, but they definitely are not an equally balanced weapon group. LMG's are the go to mg of choice for boaters and that's probably because of the range, and that 14x crit rate that was mentioned earlier. Considering that the HMG has a range of only 1/3 of that distance and has a doubled weight, greatly diminished critrate AND much less ammo per ton you can't say that it is in a good place.

The whole weapon group needs to be looked at for a bit of rebalancing.

Edited by roboPrancer, 24 August 2017 - 03:13 PM.

[Admiral-Dan]

Jun Watarase, on 24 August 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Ive never seen crit damage multipliers listed in li song's mechlab or on smurfy's site. Are they listed somewhere?

Yes, Patchnotes