97 replies to this topic

[panzer1b]

Personally i feel that LMGs are the ONLY one thats is seriously broken. HMG and even the MG has way too little range to make it a general purpose weapon, while as few as 3 LMGs will shred open components from 300m away, and thats the real issue, the 300m effective range. If you use the shorter range choices you are looking at like 10-20% more damage vs open internals, but you can only utilize said damage at point blank range.

I think one of the best options would be to give all 3 MGs the same crit rate boost. LMGs do approximately 1.9DPS per gun against open structure, MGs do approx 2DPS, and HMGs do approx 2.4DPS. the LMG does 80% the effective DPS vs open components at over 3 times the effective range of the HMG, yeah it sucks against armor, but if you have 3 or more unused ballistic slots and can spare 2 or so tons its a no-brainer to bring 3 LMgs and like a ton of ammo for em for those moments when the enemy is open, and thanks to their absurd range, you dont even need to commit or take excessive risks when engaging unlike the other 2 options.

LMGs need to have either lower crit rates (to make them actually do ~50% HMG damage vs open internals), or need to loose the 250m effective range which makes them able to use their absurd DPS vs open structure from outside of brawling range. MGs and HMGs are perfectly fine as is though, given how risky a 100m effective range weapon is and the required commitment to stay on a target until you or they drop.

[Judah Malganis]

So, I wasn't aware that the different mg types have different crit/crit bonuses. I concede that maybe they should all be brought down to heavy mg levels, since they are already balanced for damage, range and ammo count. Either that, or drop the bonuses and double the dps of the guns. Some here are arguing that they should have no bonuses and just keep their current dps. Why? Why would I take a .08-1 DPS IS mg and a half ton of ammo when I can use the tonnage for a SPL, (ER)ML, (ER)SL x2 getting better DPS for sure and in some cases, extra range, as well as better poke? Why would I do the same for Clan when I can use the weight to get an ER SL or Micro Pulse and a Micro small? Or get SRMS? Or if I don't have the slots, use the weight to upgrade my other weapons? Without the crit/crit dmg, mgs are WORTHLESS... literally.

You are right. Mgs work, That's why people use them. The same as SRMS, Gauss, lasers, and so on. Don't ask for them to be nerfed into complete uselessness because you're not comfortable getting killed by them.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 05:59 PM.

[Kalo Shin]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Meh. Last match, I'm running a catapult with 4xmpl and 2x asrm6. Team sucks, won't push, we're losing and I'm trying to shift flanks so hopefully I can still get in some damage with the 4 mpl I have left. CT cored but only orange so maybe I can make it work some. Then an ACH with MGs gets on me. I give him my back and try to snap off some shots but the one time I line up a shot he crits out 3 lasers. Less than a second of exposure and my weapons are gone. Because somehow that is balanced and fun. Especially since we all know just how bad hit regarding is ok not fast moving mechs.

Stop trying to feed me your BS about MGs being fine. They aren't but that's how it always is when something is OP. The users deflect all they can while the rest just hope it ends soon.

Enjoy having one less target on the field to shoot at.

So you're saying you willingly showed another mech your back so you could pad your stats, and then got mad because he damaged you and took out some of your weaponry? Were this any other Light, like A Jenner 2c with a MPL build or an SRM build, or a Firestarter MPL build, you'd have lost a lot more and in a shorter amount of time, most likely a torso or just probably have died in the process. This isn't surprising, what is surprising is you saying that Mechs slaughter mechs when they can back shot them is a good example and grounds to nerf a weapons group into obscurity.

Edited by Kalo Shin, 24 August 2017 - 06:10 PM.

[Ruar]

Kalo Shin, on 24 August 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

So you're saying you willingly showed another mech your back so you could pad your stats, and then got mad because he damaged you and took out some of your weaponry? Were this any other Light, like A Jenner 2c with a MPL build or an SRM build, or a Firestarter MPL build, you'd have lost a lot more and in a shorter amount of time, most likely a torso or just probably have died in the process. This isn't surprising, what is surprising is you saying that Mechs slaughter mechs when they can back shot them is a good example and grounds to nerf a weapons group into obscurity.

My back had armor, I keep some there on purpose because I respect light mechs. If it had been a light without MGs I would have fought and twisted because I stand a better chance than showing back armor. Against a MG light my only choice was hide my cored areas as much as possible.

Stop making excuses for MGs being too strong against crits.

I would have died against other mechs, not upset about dying. The problem is MGs are so strong there's no counter other than don't get targeted once your armor is open. That's not balance any way you slice it.

[The6thMessenger]

Jun Watarase, on 23 August 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

In short, the LMGs actually did more than twice the expected DPS against structure.

I honestly don't know. I mean where did you even get the impression that MGs are supposed to be doing something specific, or not doing something.

Maybe it's by design?

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

My back had armor, I keep some there on purpose because I respect light mechs. If it had been a light without MGs I would have fought and twisted because I stand a better chance than showing back armor. Against a MG light my only choice was hide my cored areas as much as possible.

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm trying to understand how you can twist off a Jenner IIC's 4x MPLs doing 28 dmg over .90 seconds but you somehow cannot twist off 10 DPS from mgs when they use exactly the same hit mechanic. Or how you can twist off a 40 pt 4x SRM4, 2x SRM2 instagib but, again, not the mg focus stream.

On a side note, you and I stand corrected on a topic we discussed earlier. In TT, mgs do as much dmg as an AC2 to mechs, just at a much shorter range, so they're not 'just for infantry'. And they crit, too, which is why mechs like the Piranha exist in TT. Once your armor is sheared off, they move in and plink your internals all to hell with a high crit probability every round due to the sheer number of shots you're taking. That should give you an idea of how much DPS/crit they should have in-game to be truly 'in line' with the rest of the ballistics...

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 07:49 PM.

[Kalo Shin]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

My back had armor, I keep some there on purpose because I respect light mechs. If it had been a light without MGs I would have fought and twisted because I stand a better chance than showing back armor. Against a MG light my only choice was hide my cored areas as much as possible.

Stop making excuses for MGs being too strong against crits.

I would have died against other mechs, not upset about dying. The problem is MGs are so strong there's no counter other than don't get targeted once your armor is open. That's not balance any way you slice it.

You're asking for a nerf on a weapon that's legitimately still not even competitive because of how they intrinsically work, and the weapon also exists in a world where you have lightmechs with such immense damage that they pop you instantly, but because there's no "Counter play" against a weapon that requires the opposing player to tunnel vision your arm/weapons system so he can do what his weapon system is intended to do (Which by the way is a flawed, idea, especially in this game and how it works), it pisses you off? IF you actually think there's no counterplay to this, I must say I'd really like to never have you on my team. You said you had SRM's and mpl's on your mech, your first reaction should have been to blow that poor little dudes hands off, but you literally gave him your back and got mad when he took your weapons from you when, once again, literally any mech, light or not, would have blown you in two, regardless of your back armor.

[poltergoost]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

I would have died against other mechs

Well at least you got that bit right

[Jun Watarase]

Methanoid, on 24 August 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

A stationary mech that previously had ALL its armor stripped off before the MG's touched that structure, THEN it took 6.5 seconds. How about you redo that timer including armor.

Firstly most people lose their rear armor very quickly anyay due to poor hit reg (front shots hitting rear armor), strikes, random splash damage from missles or friendly fire. And nobody puts 28 rear armor on an Atlas becaue thats the stock value.

A light mech can easily re-position and stay in the rear arc of an assault. Yea, the assault can turn, the light can stay in the rear. Either way, the light would be firing lasers as well in a real match and would be able to get a few seconds worth of fire in easily even if the assault starts turning immediately, which it cant do if its engaging enemies to the front.

If you have two groups of assaults duking it out, none of them are going to turn to expose their rear armor to the other assaults because theres a light mech in the rear.

[Methanoid]

Jun Watarase, on 25 August 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

Firstly most people lose their rear armor very quickly anyay due to poor hit reg (front shots hitting rear armor), strikes, random splash damage from missles or friendly fire. And nobody puts 28 rear armor on an Atlas becaue thats the stock value.

A light mech can easily re-position and stay in the rear arc of an assault. Yea, the assault can turn, the light can stay in the rear. Either way, the light would be firing lasers as well in a real match and would be able to get a few seconds worth of fire in easily even if the assault starts turning immediately, which it cant do if its engaging enemies to the front.

If you have two groups of assaults duking it out, none of them are going to turn to expose their rear armor to the other assaults because theres a light mech in the rear.

Lights/Machine gun users cant be overepowered using the excuse that a target mech is busy dealing with other mechs, thats every mech in the game including the light mechs.

The main faulted argument here is that machine guns can somehow strip all armor and structure+weapons off a heavily armoured target in moments without a care in the world, obviously this is impossible, what people are actually saying is that an already heavily damaged mech is simply being finished off by machine gun users currently (and its not just lights that can do that) yet people speak as if the machine gun user alone somehow wiped out the mech from fresh.

If a mech is already that heavily damaged and from your example is busy dealing with some other mech, it doesnt matter what extra mech is parked behind you firing away, machine guns or not, your still toast.

Edited by Methanoid, 25 August 2017 - 02:22 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Except that lights can strip off structure far faster than a heavy can. Especially since its hitscan and generates no heat. My ACH easily does far more damage vs structure than my heavies, which get focused fired very easily. I even legged an annihilator in a few seconds.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 25 August 2017 - 03:18 AM.

[sceii]

Jun Watarase, on 25 August 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

Except that lights can strip off structure far faster than a heavy can. Especially since its hitscan and generates no heat. My ACH easily does far more damage vs structure than my heavies, which get focused fired very easily. I even legged an annihilator in a few seconds.

My orion can strip assault's open leg in one salvo.
You lie.

[Ruar]

This discussion is not really worth the effort anymore. Provide an example of a situation where MGs demonstrate how out of balance they are and people ignore the situation by trying to redirect to other weapons.

Because if those other weapons were so good why aren't people using them instead of MGs?

Because MGs are all of a sudden fun compared to MGs of the past?

Yes, we all know that people flock to a weapon build because it's weaker, harder to use, provides less benefit, but gosh-darn it's just fun.

MG's ability to strip out components and damage structure has been buffed to the point it's OP. It's just that simple. People previously only used MGs every now and then because they only shined in a few select cases. With the change to MGs from the tech update that has changed and now they provide a distinct advantage throughout most of the match.

Sure, armor needs to be open before MGs are truly scary, but that doesn't mean they are completely ineffective the rest of the time. And once armor is open they show just how OP they are by stripping out weapons faster than anything else.

The people who love having an advantage don't want to see it go away, so they are constantly shifting and changing their words in an attempt to deflect from the problem. "Anyone could have killed your back armor", "MGs are only good if you let them get in close, stay together and they can't do anything" and other such nonsense.

The truth is MGs are OP and need tuning to be brought in line with other weapons.

Or don't fix them. Leave them like they are and watch the population decline even more as people realize the game isn't worth playing since the fights have devolved into gimmicks. Spam strikes, spam MGs, drop to 8v8. Wonder why the game is shedding players and keep demanding your advantage stays out of balance at the cost of everyone else's enjoyment.

[Methanoid]

Then why dont we see every man and his dog equipping MG's. And if ppl are so sure that MG's should not be only good at devastating structure then what role do ppl actually think they should have? be just a copy of a laser in bullet form?

Edited by Methanoid, 25 August 2017 - 04:51 AM.

[MagicIndex]

Let's just nerf'em and see what's happens...

Edited by MagicIndex, 25 August 2017 - 05:54 AM.

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

This discussion is not really worth the effort anymore. Provide an example of a situation where MGs demonstrate how out of balance they are and people ignore the situation by trying to redirect to other weapons.

If anything, you're the one that's not listening. No one has denied that mgs bring solid sustained DPS to the fight, but your proposed nerf is ridiculous.

Others have argued with you that:

- Yes, mgs have good sustained DPS, but it requies SUSTAINMENT, and other mechs, including many lights, even if they bring somewhat lower overall dps, front-load their dmg into one big alpha, allowing them more movement flexibility and less armor risk during a brawl/backstab.

- Due to their lack of alpha capability, are virtually no good against fresh armor. They require stripped/distracted/unmoving targets to be really effective.

- If PGI nerfs mgs by eliminating their crit/crit damage bonus as you suggest, there would be no incentive to bring them... AT ALL. The weight would be better used on pretty much anything else.

- Even in TT, boating mgs was very strong, and mgs were stronger individually there than they are in MWO.

You have looked at all the counterarguments and your studied response has been "That's good. I don't care. Plz nerf NOW."

By your faulty logic of "if it's popular, it's OP and needs a nerf", maybe PGI should nerf SRMs out of existence, since they're so popular with brawlers, or ER Large lasers, since hill-humpers love them so much. Or hell, since the real issue is that mgs tear apart your internals after your armor has been stripped, maybe they should nerf every other weapon in the game so your armor doesn't get stripped in the first place.

You claim that nerfing mgs out of existence will be good for the game. It will be good for YOUR game, since you already decided that mgs should be anti-infantry only, when even Sarna states that they have good anti-mech capabilities. I concede that PGI will probably bring the entire mg family's crit/crit dmg to hmg levels just to silence the whiners, but completely nullifying the weapon class because you don't like it is ridiculous. It will not be good for the game. It reduces viable class variety and pushes us further into Grand Unifying Meta territory, where everyone is outfitted the same, and players will quit, because no one wants to be a cookie cutter of 23 other people in a match.

And you speak about the defenders of mgs as if that's the only thing they play. You're very mistaken. My best KDRs come from shotgunners and LRM builds. MGs are just a fun change of pace but I still play my other mechs regulalrly..

Edited by Judah Malganis, 25 August 2017 - 06:35 AM.

[sceii]

Many people knew mg are stong if boated(and quirked for range) for quite a while, but we only had 3 mechs capable to do it, jaegermech, shadowcat and arrow.
And only 2 of this mechs ever had range quirks, JM and BJ-a back in the day.
BJa is paywalled.
So we get 2 non paywalled chasis capable of mg boating and higher range mg version.
Awful weapon system finally can be a threat.
Bads cry.

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 25 August 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

If anything, you're the one that's not listening. No one has denied that mgs bring solid sustained DPS to the fight, but your proposed nerf is ridiculous.

Others have argued with you that:

- Yes, mgs have good sustained DPS, but it requies SUSTAINMENT, and other mechs, including many lights, even if they bring somewhat lower overall dps, front-load their dmg into one big alpha, allowing them more movement flexibility and less armor risk during a brawl/backstab.

- Due to their lack of alpha capability, are virtually no good against fresh armor. They require stripped/distracted/unmoving targets to be really effective.

- If PGI nerfs mgs by eliminating their crit/crit damage bonus as you suggest, there would be no incentive to bring them... AT ALL. The weight would be better used on pretty much anything else.

- Even in TT, boating mgs was very strong, and mgs were stronger individually there than they are in MWO.

You have looked at all the counterarguments and your studied response has been "That's good. I don't care. Plz nerf NOW."

By your faulty logic of "if it's popular, it's OP and needs a nerf", maybe PGI should nerf SRMs out of existence, since they're so popular with brawlers, or ER Large lasers, since hill-humpers love them so much. Or hell, since the real issue is that mgs tear apart your internals after your armor has been stripped, maybe they should nerf every other weapon in the game so your armor doesn't get stripped in the first place.

You claim that nerfing mgs out of existence will be good for the game. It will be good for YOUR game, since you already decided that mgs should be anti-infantry only, when even Sarna states that they have good anti-mech capabilities. I concede that PGI will probably bring the entire mg family's crit/crit dmg to hmg levels just to silence the whiners, but completely nullifying the weapon class because you don't like it is ridiculous. It will not be good for the game. It reduces viable class variety and pushes us further into Grand Unifying Meta territory, where everyone is outfitted the same, and players will quit, because no one wants to be a cookie cutter of 23 other people in a match.

And you speak about the defenders of mgs as if that's the only thing they play. You're very mistaken. My best KDRs come from shotgunners and LRM builds. MGs are just a fun change of pace but I still play my other mechs regulalrly..

Come on man, there's no need for exaggeration and lies.

First, you completely disregard the value of a 0 heat weapon with sustained DPS. Yeah, it's not going to be a weapon that makes up the main portion of your build, but it would be a great companion weapon if you have the slots for it and fight in such a way some added DPS would be useful. In fact, without the crit portion then MGs would have to be buffed with more ammunition per ton at the least.

Please notice that I fully recognize that removing the crit portion would require some buffing to compensate.

My logic isn't simply that "it's popular so it needs nerfing", stop with that lie. What I am saying is that a brand new weapon is being used by a large portion of the mechs on the field despite the fact so many people are here on the forums saying "but they are so bad in X, and Y, and Z circumstances". Because a weapon truly that hard to use and that inefficient isn't going to see an explosion in use. Typically weapons that are OP get FotM status so people can abuse the hell out of them before they are nerfed.

And I do mean multiple mechs on the field, not just Myst Lynx. I was seeing Myst Lynx, Urbies, Bushwackers, Arctic Cheetahs, and Kit Fox all running around stacking multiple LMGs. LMGs were present as a support weapon on many heavy and assualt mechs as well.

Stop with the lie about nerfing out of existence. There is a problem and it needs fixed. Balance requires give and take and I fully understand MGs would have to gain something in return for losing the ability to crit.

As I said, deflection so you don't have to actually stay on task.


Here's a question though. How much critical damage does an LMG do at 200m in .5 sec? In 1 sec? 3xLMGs... 8xLMGs. Why not just simply look at the numbers regarding how much critical damage is being done.

[InfinityBall]

Ruar, on 25 August 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

This discussion is not really worth the effort anymore. Provide an example of a situation where MGs demonstrate how out of balance they are and people ignore the situation by trying to redirect to other weapons.

IOW, "Provide an example of a situation where MGs demonstrate how out of balance they are and people point out how they're in balancce by pointing to other weapons"

Edited by InfinityBall, 25 August 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Methanoid]

Ruar, on 25 August 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

First, you completely disregard the value of a 0 heat weapon with sustained DPS. Yeah, it's not going to be a weapon that

this seems to be your go-to argument a lot, fine you go add some heat, now add limited charges to lasers so they have ammunition and cant fire for eternity and your on level grounds.