97 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Ruar, on 24 August 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

Internals and structure all feel the same. Right now if I'm into structure and see a MG mech I know I can kiss that area goodbye. No amount of twisting can keep them from popping that area faster than I can do damage in return.

I think being the best short range DPS weapon in the game is enough of a trademark, there's no need to also add in best internal/structure killer. However I do realize ammunition would have to be increased since it would take longer to chew through structure without the bonus.

"Best short range DPS" isn't really true though, the sustained DPS figures of machine guns are pretty deceptive, SRMs are the strongest short range DPS as they have enough burst DPS for long enough to outperform machine guns in terms of damage done.

It's the crit/structure killing that IS the trademark of machine guns, and IMO there is nothing wrong with that. It is actually the only weapon that does it, and weapons should be as unique as possible IMO.

If anything they could buff the crit bonus even more and reduce the damage to make this niche even more specific.

Edited by Sjorpha, 24 August 2017 - 06:11 AM.

[Maker L106]

Sjorpha, on 24 August 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

If anything they could buff the crit bonus even more and reduce the damage to make this niche even more specific.

I'd be on board with this. The weapon is fine as is, the lights aren't a problem when you can streak / leg them and the entire idea of bringing a weapon for a job is the entire point of bringing different weapons in the first place.

Or am I the only one who bothers running extremely mixed loadouts anymore?

[Judah Malganis]

MGs are not the highest dps weapons in the game. Look up the weapons list. A lot of short range weapons have higher dps and also bring the advantage of front-loading dmg, allowing for stick and move type actions while waiting for your cooldowns to recycle. MGs require a relatively non-moving target, a team that is unwilling to help them, and commitment from the side of the mgunner. Yes, it can core out your assault from the rear in 6-7 seconds, but if it tries to hit you fresh from the front or side it will face tragedy. If it hits you from the rear and you turn, the TTK is greatly increased and they are now wasting that 10 dps and epic tons of ammo all over an assault mech that has 360+ armor, becuase holding fire until you can hit the same component over and over for .3 seconds every pass while trying to dance in a circle is worthless with mgs and would extend TTK even further, while it's an absolutely worthwhile tactic with srms and small/pulse lasers due to cooldowns and burst dmg capability. And God forbid any of their allies come to help defend them; the mg mech has to run away, since they don't have enough alpha to discourage the second attacker. Assuming the mg mech survives the encounter, they will be stripped, or nearly so, and won't have an easy time trying the same tactic again.

I know having effective backstabbers/flankers disrupts that whole "I want to poke over a hill and fire PPC, ER laser, and Gauss rifle rounds at that target 600 meters then retreat until my next cooldown" meta that people love so much, but it is necessary. You can't have a game where the only viable way of fighting you is head-on, and if you look at all the requests for airstrike, stealth, mgs, ecm, pulse laser, light mech, rl, and so on, nerfs that are constantly being fielded, and have been fielded in the past, that's the direction people would take the game towards if left to their own devices. It's amazing how a mech with 6 ER LLs is totally acceptable, but you arm the same mech with 6 MPLs and 2 LPLs as a brawler and people will cry about how strong it is.

People are complaining about mgs so much that I'm sure PGI will do what they always do and will way overdo it with the hammer. Reducing mgs to mediocre dps weapons only without any perks will ensure that they will never be fielded again. A huge win for the hill-humpers, but a loss of build variety, so an overall loss for the game.

[Mcgral18]

Jun Watarase, on 24 August 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Well i figured out that the weapons.xml file is in gamedata.pak. Looking through it, it seems that gauss/PPC now only does 7.5 crit damage on a critical hit, LBX does 2x which seems to translate to roughly 25% more damage vs structure, LMG does 14x (which translate to moe than 2x DPS vs structure), MGs do 9x and HMGs do 6x. Flamers do 1.1x and everything else seems to do 1x critical damage.

A couple patches old change for the Gauss PPC

Stops them from being the best weapons in the game



I made a fairly large thread about proposed changes in 15 or 16...they included the raw XML data

[Sjorpha]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

MGs are not the highest dps weapons in the game.

No one is saying that they are the highest dps weapon, they are the highest sustained dps per ton though.

[Prototelis]

Machine guns are finally almost worth it and fun to use.

Please leave them alone. Especially the sad little myst lynx. Even with 8mg it is still slow with arms damn near the size of its entire center mass.

The mean ol' lights can't get you if you stick together and communicate.

[Ruar]

Sjorpha, on 24 August 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

No one is saying that they are the highest dps weapon, they are the highest sustained dps per ton though.

Yeah, he is missing the point.

It's almost like that whole, no heat, constant stream of fire, part of MGs is downplayed because SRMs have more damage up front.

MGs are also hit scan so they require no leading and hit exactly where you are aiming. Yes, MGs have downsides, but being able to near instantly destroy exposed internal structure is too strong.

[Judah Malganis]

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Yeah, he is missing the point.

It's almost like that whole, no heat, constant stream of fire, part of MGs is downplayed because SRMs have more damage up front.

MGs are also hit scan so they require no leading and hit exactly where you are aiming. Yes, MGs have downsides, but being able to near instantly destroy exposed internal structure is too strong.

I'm not missing the point. You are. I can potentially build an ACH that can put 60-70 dmg over 1.5-2 seconds with 6-7 HMLs on one back section of a mech and then run away to relative safety with the added bonus of ECM cover if I go only with 6, and then repeat as needed. An 8 LMG, 4 HSL MLX-G requires 5.6-6.6 seconds of COMMITTED fire to achieve the same result, and that's assuming the target doesn't move or you aren't forced to move due to incoming fire. I've tested the laser ACH vs MLX-G builds, and you can guess which one is the one with the higher dmg and match score on avg. I'll give you a hint: It's not the Lynx. Hell, even my 6 ER SML ACH beats it on score and dmg.

Yesterday, I was in a match with my Mad Cat II with 2x UAC10s, 2x HMLs,and 4x ASRM6, An MLX-G and Pirate's Bane got behind me. I used my one JJ for a quicker turn, then alpha'd plus double tapped the UACs. 108 dmg in 1.5 seconds. He yellowed my CT, but problem solved. His PB Locust buddy ran away, never to be seen again.

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No one is saying that they are the highest dps weapon, they are the highest sustained dps per ton though

Sustained is the operant word. Mgs have zero burst damage, so the ONLY type of damage they can inflict is sustained, so it's stands to reason that it should be high. It makes no sense to have a weapon with zero alpha/burst potential and then also make it so its overall DPS is garbage. It would literally be useless.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 11:01 AM.

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm not missing the point. You are. I can potentially build an ACH that can put 60-70 dmg over 1.5-2 seconds with 6-7 HMLs on one back section of a mech and then run away to relative safety with the added bonus of ECM cover if I go only with 6, and then repeat as needed. An 8 LMG, 4 HSL MLX-G requires 5.6-6.6 seconds of COMMITTED fire to achieve the same result, and that's assuming the target doesn't move or you aren't forced to move due to incoming fire. I've tested the laser ACH vs MLX-G builds, and you can guess which one is the one with the higher dmg and match score on avg. I'll give you a hint: It's not the Lynx. Hell, even my 6 ER SML ACH beats it on score and dmg.

Yesterday, I was in a match with my Mad Cat II with 2x UAC10s, 2x HMLs,and 4x ASRM6, An MLX-G and Pirate's Bane got behind me. I used my one JJ for a quicker turn, the alpha'd plus double tapped the UACs. 108 dmg in 1.5 seconds. He yellowed my CT, but problem solved. His PB Locust buddy ran away, never to be seen again.



Sustained is the operant word. Mgs have zero burst damage, so the ONLY type of damage they can inflict is sustained.

And yet with all that you just said people are flocking to the MG builds for some strange reason. I mean, if MGs are so clearly inadequate as weapons why are there all of a sudden so many out there. Could it possibly be because you are severely downplaying the issue.

What about mechs that don't have 108dmg potential? What about the mediums that have 40-50 dmg total. Should they just be fodder for the OP MGs because hey, as long as you are driving around a Mad Cat II it's all find and dandy.

What about when your Mad Cat II has it's armor stripped and that MG MLX zips by doing a 2 second burst and ripping off a torso? Still seem balanced?

[MagicIndex]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

People are complaining about mgs so much that I'm sure PGI will do what they always do and will way overdo it with the hammer.

As sooner PGI do this, as better. Cause... there since TT is only two weapons which are leggit to do crits: PPC's and Gauss.
Not counting LB-X. MG's against mechs? You must be kidding? MG's are anti-infantry weapon where it must stay.

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

And yet with all that you just said people are flocking to the MG builds for some strange reason. I mean, if MGs are so clearly inadequate as weapons why are there all of a sudden so many out there. Could it possibly be because you are severely downplaying the issue.

What about mechs that don't have 108dmg potential? What about the mediums that have 40-50 dmg total. Should they just be fodder for the OP MGs because hey, as long as you are driving around a Mad Cat II it's all find and dandy.

What about when your Mad Cat II has it's armor stripped and that MG MLX zips by doing a 2 second burst and ripping off a torso? Still seem balanced?

What about when my Mad Cat II is stripped and a Griffin turns the corner and fires 32 point alpha and blows off that side torso in an instant? What about when some LRMs hit me and blow off my stripped arm? What about getting a torso blown off by an air strike? Or getting a stripped leg caved in by a 6x SPL Locust who pokes from cover and fires 2x 21 pt alphas in less than in less than 3 seconds? All these things happen, and they are no reason to start dropping the nerf hammer.

I see maybe 2-3 MG mechs per match max, sometimes, only 1, so it's not like you see a full team or a 75% of team being nothing but MG mechs. You accuse me of downplaying, but if anything, you're exaggerating. And if MG boats didn't exist, people would be still be whining about lights, particularly ECM lights, being able to flank them and cause headaches with lasers and SRMs. People swear that lights suck but cry whenever they get killed or wrecked by one, because it's like they're there to be cannon fodder only.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Ruar]

First, I don't think lights suck. They are potent for the people that can play them correctly.

Second, the main difference between the situations you listed, minus the strikes which are their own thread, is that none of those weapons will kill your structure and internals in a few seconds. You can twist against missiles and lasers. Twisting against MGs doesn't help because the lights are able to stay with your twist and hold their fire on target.

And lately I've been seeing 25-30% of a team with MGs of some sort. Is 75% the cutoff score before a weapon is deemed OP?

[Judah Malganis]

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And lately I've been seeing 25-30% of a team with MGs of some sort. Is 75% the cutoff score before a weapon is deemed OP?

The most common weapon in game is probably the ER Large Laser. By your reasoning, it needs a nerf, since it's well-liked, and that means it' OP. And your 25-30% is probably more realistic than your previously reported 80%, so at least we're talking again.

By the way, missiles and LB-X rounds kill internals pretty fast as well, and again, they have the bonus of being able to front load dmg, so I can blow your internals apart and disengage. Really, no one wants to take into account just how much commitment it takes to blow a fresh mech apart with machine guns. I love playing hit and run mechs with high speed weapons that allow me to keep moving constantly while being able to lay down decent fire with minimal presentation time. I thought machine guns would be the same, but it took a few days to get decent with them because you have to keep eyes on the target for longer periods to make them really functional. They're far riskier than SRMs or pulse lasers, and they should be rewarded.

Regardless, some of you guys are under the impression that once your armor goes, you should be able to keep fighting like nothing happened. The point of having armor vs internals is that your internals are now vulnerable since you're stripped. I personally like the new overall frequency of crits... from all weapon types. I hated hitting mechs over and over on stripped parts and not having their weapons nullified until the whole section blew off. It's cool to see they've usually lost a few items in that section before it goes, even if you're just firing lasers at them.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Jun Watarase, on 24 August 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Why is this not mentioned in the mechlab? That seems like pretty important info.

Oh right, PGI.

Ive never seen crit damage multipliers listed in li song's mechlab or on smurfy's site. Are they listed somewhere?

the game is missing A LOT of details on weapons ATm damage at ranges without a funky graph that shows confusing information that cannot be efficently read. UAC Rac Jam chances,Guass rifle charge time, LBx Spread

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

The most common weapon in game is probably the ER Large Laser. By your reasoning, it needs a nerf, since it's well-liked, and that means it' OP. And your 25-30% is probably more realistic than your previously reported 80%, so at least we're talking again.

By the way, missiles and LB-X rounds kill internals pretty fast as well, and again, they have the bonus of being able to front load dmg, so I can blow your internals apart and disengage. Really, no one wants to take into account just how much commitment it takes to blow a fresh mech apart with machine guns. I love playing hit and run mechs with high speed weapons that allow me to keep moving constantly while being able to lay down decent fire with minimal presentation time. I thought machine guns would be the same, but it took a few days to get decent with them because you have to keep eyes on the target for longer periods to make them really functional. They're far riskier than SRMs or pulse lasers, and they should be rewarded.

Regardless, some of you guys are under the impression that once your armor goes, you should be able to keep fighting like nothing happened. The point of having armor vs internals is that your internals are now vulnerable since you're stripped. I personally like the new overall frequency of crits... from all weapon types. I hated hitting mechs over and over on stripped parts and not having their weapons nullified until the whole section blows off. It's cool to see they've usually lost a few items in that section before the section goes, even if you're just firing lasers at them.

Who said anything about 80%?

As for LBs and SRMs being more of a threat... I've never felt that I was definitely going to lose a torso or arm going into a fight against LB or SRM equipped mechs, going against anything with MGs now though is just futilely painful.

Sure, pure damage is a threat to internals, but it's a normal threat that is always there. MGs on the other hand are doing stupid amounts of structure damage far and above the threat of any other weapon. And there is no heat. And they are hit scan so twisting has limited value. And they have 300m range now.

It's just too much.

[Judah Malganis]

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Who said anything about 80%?

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Sounds like it's time for a changeup. Before MGs could be boated then it wasn't a big deal with the higher crit rate. Now that you can boat enough to hit 10dps plus crit bonus it's gone too far.

Having a 0 heat weapon with 8-10 DPS as long as the ammo holds out sounds pretty unique and worth using sometimes. Perhaps not on 80% of the chassis in play at a given time though. Usually when a weapon gets that much use it's because it's too good.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure you did, in the Nerf Machine Guns Now thread, but you've since deleted the statement, even though it's still referenced twice in the first few pages of the discussion.

And again, by your reasoning, we should nerf ER Large Lasers because they're so popular.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Fair enough. Not sure why I put that TBH.

[Judah Malganis]

Ultimately, I'm sure there will be some tweaking, but we have to remember that the ultimate purpose of mgs is to rip internal aparts. Nerf the crit and crit damage too much and they are best mediocre DPS weapons requiring too much time on target at short ranges to be effective, and people will stop using them altogether, although I'm sure there's a few hill-humpers out there that wouldn't mine that at all.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 24 August 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[Ruar]

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Ultimately, I'm sure there will be some tweaking, but we have to remember that the ultimate purpose of mgs is to rip internal aparts. Nerf the crit and crit damage too much and they are best mediocre DPS weapons requiring too much time on target at short ranges to be effective, and people will stop using them altogether, although I'm sure there's a few hill-humpers out there that wouldn't mine that at all.

Actually, the ultimate purpose of MGs is to engage infantry carrying missiles. But MWO put it's own spin on the concept. And now they made it OP.

Judah Malganis, on 24 August 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

As a matter of fact, I'm sure you did, in the Nerf Machine Guns Now thread, but you've since deleted the statement, even though it's still referenced twice in the first few pages of the discussion.

And again, by your reasoning, we should nerf ER Large Lasers because they're so popular.

It's taken out of context. I was replying about the number of MLX with MGs, which is about 80% of the MLX's out there. I was not saying that 80% of all mechs use it.

And it's still there on page 3, I didn't delete it.

Edited by Ruar, 24 August 2017 - 12:33 PM.

[Judah Malganis]

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Actually, the ultimate purpose of MGs is to engage infantry with missiles. But MWO put it's own spin on the concept. And now they made it OP.

I meant "their purpose within the context of the game". If we went with pure TT rules, there would literally be little use for them.