257 replies to this topic

[mouser42]

Edited by mouser42, 26 August 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[panzer1b]

Laser vomit is not the real issue nowadays at least personally, its the fact that a certain mech (which had to be a bloody hero for that matter) has absolutely PERFECT hardpoints and can bring 30 heat-free PPFLD supplemented by 64 bloody laser damage (2HLL 4 ERML) without making massive sacrifices in either mobility or any other regard. Gauss vomit on most mechs is perfectly fine, since they have either not enough tonnage to bring dual gauss or do not have enough laser hardpoints to bring any sort of brutal energy alfa strike alongside the gauss. But that bloody deathstrike, needs to have something done to keep it from being the last mech anyone wants to face in a fight (i dont think there is any other mech that i will outright avoid LOS with for an entire game unless i know it isnt carrying 90+ alfa strike).

Anyways, deathstrike rant aside, i think the best thing that can be done to deal with laser vomit is to redo ghost heat to consider the TOTAL damage dealt and then apply heat penalties if a threshold is exceeded in a single alfa strike. Myself id limit total alfa strikes (for laser weapons at least) to ~60 damage before heat kicks in. The reason i chose 60 is that any lower and IS starts to become 100% superior to clan mechs since most IS laser mechs have between 40 and 50 alfa strike, but because of duration, that alfa strike is vastly superior to a clan alfa strike, so clans should be capable of bringing ~10 or so alfa above most IS mechs with higher burn times ofc.

Right now with the way ghost heat works, you can do utterly dumb stuff like 78 alfa (2HLL 6 ERML) with NO penalties regarding heat at a decent optimal range of ~450 with skills, and frankly, that is way too high for fun and fair gameplay. Having your ST stripped in a single burn (and dont give me the shielding argument, the whole point of 78 alfa is to hit something that isnt paying attention to you per say from the flank or even rear) is the 2nd most annoying thing in game right now (after deathstrike and its ability to dump over 90 dmg in like a second), and that isnt even from behind, asobviously if you get behind someone with that much alfa strike, especially someone that strips rear armor, they are gonna die in 1 shot. Taking a hit from 60 alfa is also not that much fun, but at least 60 alfa isnt going to turn whatever component gets hit into a 1 touch kill, whereas 78 is virtually guaranteed to strip all the armor and do some damage to structure on all but extremely quirked mechs with maxed survival trees (assuming you can get all the damage into a ST ofc).

Im gonna keep on abusing my 78 alfa laser boats solong as they dont nerf the crap out of the concept (and HLLs arent the problem and should stay as is, makes mechs with 2-3 hardpoints viable, they need to add a sort of global ghost heat when total damage exceeds ~60 or so). Ill take my hit to sustained DPS (and even then its still above 4.0 which isnt that lousy), for the ability to ruin someone's day with a single well placed burn.

Edited by panzer1b, 26 August 2017 - 11:19 AM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

By not nerfing lasers to begin with? I blame the potatoes as much as PGI's random pointless nerfs to certain weapon systems in the game that they gathered from "hard data". No weapon systems in this game need a nerf. Armor values and hit box registration is what needs to be fixed.

[Smites]

Link Medium and Large Lasers into the same heat family and limit them to around 40 damage.

Link Medium Lasers and Gauss Rifles.

Problem solved.

(PGI, please, no.)

Edited by Smites, 26 August 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[- World Eater -]

How many nerf threads are there a week? Not singling out OP, but enough already.

[Khobai]

Quote

Nerfing Guass / Laser combos will only reinforce laser vomit (all laser builds)...

but pure laser vomit builds arnt unbalanced. heat keeps them in check.

its gauss/laser combos that are the problem

the common denominator in clan meta builds is not lasers. its CLAN GAUSS.

lasers on their own isnt a problem. lasers with clan gauss is the problem (just like PPCs with clan gauss was the problem before). nerfing clan gauss solves the problem.

clan gauss is simply too good. its 3 tons less than IS gauss with no real downside. it needs to be nerfed.

if you want to balance deathstrike better then nerfing clan gauss is how you do it. because clan lasers already got hit with a massive nerf, they dont need another one.

Quote

Laser vomit is pretty strong right now. Too strong? Not sure. On the Clans I'm seeing these hellbringers in FP bringing 2 heavy large lasers + 4 or 5 er mediums.

there is nothing overpowered about that.

2 HLLs + 5 CERMLs is 71 damage for 67.5 heat.

that damage to heat ratio is absolutely atrocious. the beam durations are bad too.

pure laser vomit builds arnt a problem because of the heat

Quote

Link Medium and Large Lasers into the same heat family and limit them to around 40 damage.

Link Medium Lasers and Gauss Rifles.

except that does absolutely nothing to balance clan gauss being 3 tons lighter than IS gauss.

again clan gauss needs to be balanced better, thats the whole issue with deathstrike.

Edited by Khobai, 26 August 2017 - 12:11 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

I know, I know!
Lets push for the buff of lurms and have lurm meta for a while. It will be refreshing and relaxing at the same time.

[Vxheous]

Xmith, on 26 August 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

2 large heavy lasers are too hot. I have not seen that build. 2 CLPL 3 ERML is the norm for HBRs

HBR with 2 Large heavy lasers + 4ERML can pack 24 heatsinks. It's a great build for general pugging, but if I had to only take one heavy for something, it would still be Mini Deathstrike Night Gyr.

[Joshua Obrien]

Khobai, on 26 August 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

the issue is more gauss+lasers

not mixing large lasers with medium/smalls, thats not unbalanced

when gauss/ppc was nerfed the next obvious evolution of the meta became gauss/laser

the problem isnt lasers because lasers got nerfed. the common denominator is clan gauss, clan gauss is what still needs to be nerfed, its 3 tons lighter than IS gauss with no appreciable downside.

IMO clan gauss needs to be changed to 12 damage, 3.5+0.5 cooldown, and 720m range. That would make its damage more appropriate for its tonnage, but it would fire much faster and get better range compared to IS gauss.

balance clan gauss better and mechs like deathstrike will be fine.

People like you are the reason clans can't have nice things. You already have a weight advantage in FW, structure, armor quirks sometimes both on your mechs. Your range is almost even with ours now. You have waaaay more mechs than clans so your drop decks are more diversified and less limiting and you can fire more weapons without incurring ghost heat and your weapons run cooler. Also, your ACs are better. So I'm not sure what you're on about but knock it off.

[Antares102]

We had a non-laser vomit meta for some time.
It was called KDK-3 with 4x (bugged) UAC10

Edited by Antares102, 26 August 2017 - 12:46 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

MWO just before the KDK-3 launched was the best balance the game had ever seen. You had top-level teams seriously considering whether to take Clan or IS 'Mechs in every weight class and in almost every role, and there really wasn't a wrong answer because the performance margins were so slim.

And then the KDK-3 happened and made pop-tarts not just optimal, but necessary. And then there was the rescale. And the quirk nerfs. And the rest is history.

[panzer1b]

Khobai, on 26 August 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

but pure laser vomit builds arnt unbalanced. heat keeps them in check.

its gauss/laser combos that are the problem

the common denominator in clan meta builds is not lasers. its CLAN GAUSS.

lasers on their own isnt a problem. lasers with clan gauss is the problem (just like PPCs with clan gauss was the problem before). nerfing clan gauss solves the problem.

clan gauss is simply too good. its 3 tons less than IS gauss with no real downside. it needs to be nerfed.

if you want to balance deathstrike better then nerfing clan gauss is how you do it. because clan lasers already got hit with a massive nerf, they dont need another one.

So you are advocating a nerf to gauss that is just about ok on most mech that use it JUST to nerf a single classis that is overpowered using it and lasers in combo. This is just plain wrong, and its the same mentality that led to the overkill nerfing of UACs around the time the kodiak showed up and started dominating everything with them (had the kodiak never appeared its very doubtful that UACs would have ever been nerfed at all).

The issue is purely the deathstrike, nothing else, just that one mech with its literally PERFECT hardpoint layout with everything cockpit height more or less, not excessively wide, and while its hitboxes arent anything super crazy, they are just about enough to stop people from focusing down 1 section super reliably. Combine that with above average mobility (it wont go super fast or anything especially if you do the 90+ alfa builds, but its actually decent and its agility is just enough to shield unlike the other 100t mechs that are even remotely capable of running gauss vomit).

Now that i think about it, the ONLY mechs that can run dual gauss vomit (2+ ballistic with at least 4 energy slots) well are the MCII (deathstrike optimal, albeit its doable with less alfa on the II-1), the MAD2C-A/C (but come with a huge weakness of having to use a STD engine and having both the gauss in a ST which goes poof so easily and is guaranteed neutering of the mech), the kodiak (like the mad2c weakness of ST gauss and 100t agility) and the dire (slow, terrible hardpoints, yeah it can do 100+ alfa strike vomit, but with massive issues alongside). Pretty much the ONLY mech that can do dual gauss vomit and do it incredibly well is the deathstrike followed by the 1st MCII model (~80 alfa maximum though on that one), and this is the problem, not the weapon system as a whole. There are ofc heavys that can run 1 gauss and lasers, but a single gauss supplemented by ~40-50 energy damage is by no means overpowered (itll still get outDPSd by any ballistic heavy mech, and itll still get outtraded by pure energy).

That and if you REALLY have to nerf cGauss, then i suggest starting out by giving it a bit more heat then it has now so its not quite the best thing alongside energy due to being heat-free. Something like 4-5 heat to start with will bring it more in-line with other ballistics without making it absolutely useless like other proposed nerfs such as 12 damage (why would i bring that when i can have a single LPL do that much damage, fire way faster and get 9 heatsinks as well which completely negate the extra heat itd generate alongside other lasers for the same weight as a gauss rifle (12t+3t ammo). Actually, clan seriously needs to have some other PPFLD options right now, with gauss being the ONLY truly effective choice in that regard. ERPPCs are extremely hot, and dont even do 100% of their damage where you hit, LBXs spread like mad, and UACs burst fire. Im pretty certain the reason gauss is so popular on clan side is that its the only PPFLD clans get that isnt the insanely hot ERPPCs, and the instant clan gets single shot ACs those would become the go-to weapons on clan side (give then more heat relative to UAC and IS tech and possibly slightly longer cooldowns and itd be balanced).

[BourbonFaucet]

Laser vomit really only works well because of pinpoint convergence. Taking 50+ damage worth of lasers wouldn't matter for example, if they all fired straight forward out of their hardpoints and splashed all over the place. It's that they all hit the same spot as hitscan weapons, instantly, that they do this.

Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I'm advocating for RNG cone of fire for all weapons. There's a way to do predictable shot placement that doesn't involve putting 50+ damage worth of lasers on a target at once.

[stealthraccoon]

Mandatory chainfire, for everything. Alpha strike = doubled heat. How about a charge mechanic for alphas?

That or remove instant convergence and/or implement cone-of-fire and/or real incremental heat penalties.

Edited by stealthraccoon, 26 August 2017 - 01:26 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Xmith, on 26 August 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

2 large heavy lasers are too hot. I have not seen that build. 2 CLPL 3 ERML is the norm for HBRs

Heavy lasers aren't hot. My HBR runs 2 HLL with 4 HML for a 76 damage alpha. They have high heat gen per shot, but have long cooldowns, offsetting the heat greatly.

A HLL is only 0.2 HPS more than an ERLL and an HML is actually 0.02 heat per second colder than an ERML.

Common laser vomit build previously was 2LPL+6 ERML on the Ebon Jaguar for 68 damage, now brought to 66. It still works fine and is in many cases superior to the higher alpha build that the Hellbringer packs on, as it has around double the optimal range and higher DPS, allowing it to fire off two shots quickly when it needs to while the heavy laser variant is still on weapon cooldown and too hot to fire a second alpha. The heavy laser build is also plagued by longer burn times.


Heavy lasers really aren't overpowered, infact they seem rather balanced with their pros and cons, high alpha balanced with high heat and its easier to spread and it has short range. If anything they might be underpowered.

Techorse, on 26 August 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

Laser vomit really only works well because of pinpoint convergence. Taking 50+ damage worth of lasers wouldn't matter for example, if they all fired straight forward out of their hardpoints and splashed all over the place. It's that they all hit the same spot as hitscan weapons, instantly, that they do this.

Disclaimer: This doesn't mean I'm advocating for RNG cone of fire for all weapons. There's a way to do predictable shot placement that doesn't involve putting 50+ damage worth of lasers on a target at once.

Laser vomit doesn't really need to not have pinpoint since they already have burn times that allow an enemy to manually spread the enemy's attack. Forcing the lasers to not be pin point just removes the work of defenders.

Edited by Dakota1000, 26 August 2017 - 01:44 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 August 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

People like you are the reason clans can't have nice things. You already have a weight advantage in FW, structure, armor quirks sometimes both on your mechs. Your range is almost even with ours now. You have waaaay more mechs than clans so your drop decks are more diversified and less limiting and you can fire more weapons without incurring ghost heat and your weapons run cooler. Also, your ACs are better. So I'm not sure what you're on about but knock it off.

Its really weird that you're the guy on IS and hes the guy on Clan here with him advocating to nerf the Cgauss even more and you telling him all the disadvantages Clan already has in FW.

I do agree with you though, I'm even on IS as a merc, mostly due to all the advantages. Just sad that so many pugs on IS don't make use of them.

[Lupis Volk]

How to nerf lazors? By getting good and stop whining for crutches. That's how!

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Dakota1000, on 26 August 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I do agree with you though, I'm even on IS as a merc, mostly due to all the advantages. Just sad that so many pugs on IS don't make use of them.

...the biggest advantage being tonnage available allowing the IS to field Assaults vs Clan Heavies. Some IS advantage right there. IS almost started winning.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 26 August 2017 - 02:28 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Probably by showing concrete data that it's overperforming, above the performance they intended it to be.

[MadRover]

Khobai, on 26 August 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

that builds not unbalanced though. heat keeps that in check.

its mechs like deathstrike that theyre actually complaining about

The Deathstrike isn't near as good as people make it out to be. Otherwise every hero mech that's currently in game has an issue.

BH2 can do IS laser vomit like a real champ. No one complains about it.
Night Gyr can do what any other mech with similar hardpoints can do. No one complains about Night Gyr
Kodiak with quad gauss. No one complains about Kodiak
Catapult Jester that is laser vomit. No one complains.
Roughneck that can do laser vomit. No one complains.

You seeing the pattern? People complain to get something nerfed into the ground because they don't want to learn how to counter, or they get crapped on by players who know how to play that particular mech in that way. Guess what you have to do? Learn how to counter those builds. I am so sick and tired of people coming to the forums crying like 2yr olds because they get their own *** handed to them by people who know to play.

How to counter LRMs? PUSH those LRMs
How to counter gauss? Close distance and tear off the STs
How to counter laser vomit? Push them hard or twist the damage all over your mech's body.

Not hard people

Edited by MadRover, 26 August 2017 - 02:57 PM.