71 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

ugh, we are back to trading *** for tat, as long as one side has an many ti- waaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute, I almost set myself up... another way to say it would be that each side has higher performing mechs in certain situations. So long as neither side has an exhorbatant # of outliers in this, there is some semblance of balance.

[Appogee]

Charles Sennet, on 08 December 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Certainly not as efficiently as the demi-god-like Assassin can right now.

ASN is definitely broken. But it's 40t vs 25t for the Crit Lynx and 30t for the ACH MG Boat. Which just proves the point we were discussing.

[TWIAFU]

Appogee, on 08 December 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Makes no difference when Clan can just balance it out with a pair of Crit Lynxes or MG Boat ACHs that wreck IS's Heavies with impunity.

Used to fear the MG boats, but no longer....



Now we hope they bring them.

[ROSS-128]

In an attempt to steer this back toward actual strategy discussion:

I've noticed that the Inner Sphere seems to have a slight advantage in scouting mode, due to their ability to front-load damage with ballistics and the rocket launcher's utility when dealing with such a small HP pool. But are the advantages gained from scouting worth it?

The first bonus doesn't seem very useful outside of edge cases. Sure you get to see your opponents' first drop, but it's usually the same thing every time and your own drop is locked in before you see it. At most it might warn you of an incoming light rush, or let you know you're facing potatoes if you see a bunch of solo players in LRM boats.

I haven't really gotten a lot of playtime with the second and third bonuses. Are they worth the trouble?

[MovinTarget]

ROSS-128, on 09 December 2017 - 05:07 AM, said:

In an attempt to steer this back toward actual strategy discussion:

I've noticed that the Inner Sphere seems to have a slight advantage in scouting mode, due to their ability to front-load damage with ballistics and the rocket launcher's utility when dealing with such a small HP pool. But are the advantages gained from scouting worth it?

The first bonus doesn't seem very useful outside of edge cases. Sure you get to see your opponents' first drop, but it's usually the same thing every time and your own drop is locked in before you see it. At most it might warn you of an incoming light rush, or let you know you're facing potatoes if you see a bunch of solo players in LRM boats.

I haven't really gotten a lot of playtime with the second and third bonuses. Are they worth the trouble?

Satelite sweep can be rather helpful for locating flankers, but also for headgames... example would be to have a wave of fast movers and let the enemy's sweep catch you moving toward one gate, as soon as it passes, double back to another gate.

Radar Jammer is useful if you are in an organized group and you want to time a push to prevent locks from enemies.

But yes, as both are periodic, they only have their niche uses, and sat sweep *can* be used against you...

[Charles Sennet]

Appogee, on 08 December 2017 - 11:32 PM, said:

ASN is definitely broken. But it's 40t vs 25t for the Crit Lynx and 30t for the ACH MG Boat. Which just proves the point we were discussing.

The arms on the MLX are huge and not quirked -- they come off super easy (unlike anything on the ASN). The Cheetah has always been a good light but it had it quirks removed a long time ago. But thank the makers for good MG's otherwise Clan lights (given the cSPL's nerf) would be in big, big trouble.

[MovinTarget]

Charles Sennet, on 09 December 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

The arms on the MLX are huge and not quirked -- they come off super easy (unlike anything on the ASN).

Not true, the arms on my assasin come of very easiy tyvm!


...of course they don't even have armor...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

[MischiefSC]

Charles Sennet, on 08 December 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

I totally understand the concept--we call it the 'max-show'. We have tried it versus teams like EVIL and it is very difficult to pull off in reality. They will usually not max show. Instead they will fire-cover-move and repeat. Max show is not a winning strategy because, again, they will get in their full damage return to cover before you can get in your damage. No Clan mech can win a long range trade versus the BLR unless it sacrifices something else important such as tankability or overall damage output (thinking of the Summoner).

The bigger problem FP balance range-wise is at short range engagements, which many FP modes force, and which objectively favors IS mechs (what they're naturally better at). Add to this the extra 300 tons in drop decks and we have a big balance problem.

Also, some (of the loud) IS players say CW tech did nothing for the IS side when I am seeing a lot new tech on the field and in use by good teams. LFE's? Check. Double heavy gauss on hot maps? Check. ERML's. Tons. Even MRM's which I wish Clans had any sort of equivalency. The list goes on... Most durable tank in the game (ANH)? Check. Lightest mech in the game? Checked for a long time and we have to wait another 6 weeks before that's finally equalized. Best skirmisher in the game? Checked hard with the god-like Assassin.

Not saying IS should have some tonnage advantage in FP. Just saying it should be less than 300 tons. Perhaps back to 120 ton advantage which were it was sometime before CW tech came out.
I totally understand the concept--we call it the 'max-show'. We have tried it versus teams like EVIL and it is very difficult to pull off in reality. They will usually not max show. Instead they will fire-cover-move and repeat. Max show is not a winning strategy because, again, they will get in their full damage return to cover before you can get in your damage. No Clan mech can win a long range trade versus the BLR unless it sacrifices something else important such as tankability or overall damage output (thinking of the Summoner).

The bigger problem FP balance range-wise is at short range engagements, which many FP modes force, and which objectively favors IS mechs (what they're naturally better at). Add to this the extra 300 tons in drop decks and we have a big balance problem.

Also, some (of the loud) IS players say CW tech did nothing for the IS side when I am seeing a lot new tech on the field and in use by good teams. LFE's? Check. Double heavy gauss on hot maps? Check. ERML's. Tons. Even MRM's which I wish Clans had any sort of equivalency. The list goes on... Most durable tank in the game (ANH)? Check. Lightest mech in the game? Checked for a long time and we have to wait another 6 weeks before that's finally equalized. Best skirmisher in the game? Checked hard with the god-like Assassin.

Not saying IS should have some tonnage advantage in FP. Just saying it should be less than 300 tons. Perhaps back to 10 ton advantage which were it was sometime before CW tech came out.

I'm not sure what you're bringing to lose those trades - you should be doing more damage over the same burn. Either 6 Erlls or a mix with ceemls for mid range to brawl.

Short range fights are your bread and butter - Splatbacker, 9mpl laservomit, hll/cerml HBR. 2xlb20x HBK, splat Huntsman. Clans have the strongest short to mid range options in the game by far, combined with incredible cooling to sustain it should let you just roll over IS even with the tonnage.

Anni is terrible - there is no "tank" in this game. MRMs are strong on like 3 mechs and dont trade well, they're just an SRM replacement.

Edited by MischiefSC, 09 December 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[Appogee]

TWIAFU, on 09 December 2017 - 04:09 AM, said:

Used to fear the MG boats, but no longer....



Now we hope they bring them.

Tell me more. I seem to keep dying to them because when I'm in a brawl one will get behind me and hammer my back, and I can't turn around because that just exposes my back to the long range high alpha Clan Mechs I was trying to take down.

Gotta admit, I haven't been enjoying IS as much this rotation. All I seem to encounter is C-ERLLs from distant corners of the map, and then a swarm of bottom-feeding MG boats when I eventually get an open component.

A big part of the problem though is that we haven't had more than 6 on the team, which makes pushing the ERLs even harder. Even 6 of us pushing makes it a much closer match at least.

Edited by Appogee, 09 December 2017 - 08:29 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Charles Sennet, on 09 December 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

The arms on the MLX are huge and not quirked -- they come off super easy (unlike anything on the ASN). The Cheetah has always been a good light but it had it quirks removed a long time ago. But thank the makers for good MG's otherwise Clan lights (given the cSPL's nerf) would be in big, big trouble.

Use the MLX-A right arm on your MLX. You'll have the firepower of ~7x MGs bringing only 6x, with a gigantic armor quirk.

6x HML + 6x MG is, IMHO, the best build.

[Charles Sennet]

MovinTarget, on 09 December 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Not true, the arms on my assasin come of very easiy tyvm!


...of course they don't even have armor...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

Yes but the weapons are not normally located there.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 December 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

Use the MLX-A right arm on your MLX. You'll have the firepower of ~7x MGs bringing only 6x, with a gigantic armor quirk.

6x HML + 6x MG is, IMHO, the best build.

I have a few MLX builds depending on the map. The Glass Cannon one has value, I even have an SRM Aloha Snackbar build, and the Crit Lynx "here lemme strip everything off your damaged mechs" one too.

It's a very flexible 25 tonner and for FW a well placed MLX can swing a lot for the Clans -

Suppose you lose wave 1 against a horde of Clops (HGauss and Splat) or wave 2 vs a Roughneck Rumble Run (all the MRMs and RACs) 1 or 2 people in Crit Lynx can almost completely disarm the whole enemy team of damaged, but tanky, mechs. Letting you mop the wave while taking almost no damage so you're not trotting half dead into the next one.

Running a bunch of them on wave 2 or 3 for glass cannon hijinx. What you dont want is to end up on wave 4 with MLX vs Assassins.

[ccrider]

Just run 3 splatbackers and an ecm splat shadowcat. 9 linebackers and 3 cats per wave wrecks face on every map and mode.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 10 December 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

Running a bunch of them on wave 2 or 3 for glass cannon hijinx. What you dont want is to end up on wave 4 with MLX vs Assassins.

Even SRM Javelins or MPL Wolfhounds will give a MLX pilot a very bad day.

[TWIAFU]

Appogee, on 09 December 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Tell me more. I seem to keep dying to them because when I'm in a brawl one will get behind me and hammer my back, and I can't turn around because that just exposes my back to the long range high alpha Clan Mechs I was trying to take down.

Gotta admit, I haven't been enjoying IS as much this rotation. All I seem to encounter is C-ERLLs from distant corners of the map, and then a swarm of bottom-feeding MG boats when I eventually get an open component.

A big part of the problem though is that we haven't had more than 6 on the team, which makes pushing the ERLs even harder. Even 6 of us pushing makes it a much closer match at least.

In our standard DD, we carry a lance or more of anti-light mechs designed specifically for the MG boats on waves three and/or four. This harassing lance sole job is the MG boats.

Hesitant to give you advice Appogee as I consider you a far better pilot then I, but streaks. Yes, I said it and we use it against MG boats. Putting constant hits has a psychological factor that disrupts the pilot and tends to give us the advantage. Rest if able are firing at arms/legs. Given this is a coordinated drop would be best used to counter with a few friends in a group.

Far as encountering the range pokers, easier said then done with a mixed drop, but deny that enemy a target. No target, no damage taken. If he has no target he must sit and wait for one or re position. Key is not give him a target again. VERY hard to keep that trigger discipline. Force him out of his position and the advantage will be yours. Deny him targets and that is one that is 'taken out' of combat for the time being - one less mech is a numerical advantage.

Clans use and rely on the range advantage. First task is to deny that advantage in all cases. For lack of better term, it is a crutch. Remove that crutch and what happens? They fall....

o7

/respect

[Appogee]

TWIAFU, on 11 December 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

In our standard DD, we carry a lance or more of anti-light mechs designed specifically for the MG boats on waves three and/or four. This harassing lance sole job is the MG boats.

Hesitant to give you advice Appogee as I consider you a far better pilot then I, but streaks. Yes, I said it and we use it against MG boats. Putting constant hits has a psychological factor that disrupts the pilot and tends to give us the advantage. Rest if able are firing at arms/legs. Given this is a coordinated drop would be best used to counter with a few friends in a group.

Far as encountering the range pokers, easier said then done with a mixed drop, but deny that enemy a target. No target, no damage taken. If he has no target he must sit and wait for one or re position. Key is not give him a target again. VERY hard to keep that trigger discipline. Force him out of his position and the advantage will be yours. Deny him targets and that is one that is 'taken out' of combat for the time being - one less mech is a numerical advantage.

Clans use and rely on the range advantage. First task is to deny that advantage in all cases. For lack of better term, it is a crutch. Remove that crutch and what happens? They fall....

o7

/respect

Thanks man, I appreciate your advice.

I do take one Streak boat in my Conquest drop decks (though oddly I never seem to use it because I am usually doing capping duty and my Commando rarely gets killed). But you're right, maybe I need to add a permanent Streak boat to all my decks and bring it out it as soon as I see a couple of crit seekers on the field.

Regarding countering the range poking... 8 of us went all MPL boats in our first waves a couple of nights ago and, as long as we stayed aggressive, we were able to roll over each poker down in turn. Was a ton of fun to boot ... much more so than those protracted pokefests that otherwise occur

Cheers.

[TWIAFU]

Appogee, on 11 December 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Thanks man, I appreciate your advice.

I do take one Streak boat in my Conquest drop decks (though oddly I never seem to use it because I am usually doing capping duty and my Commando rarely gets killed). But you're right, maybe I need to add a permanent Streak boat to all my decks and bring it out it as soon as I see a couple of crit seekers on the field.

Regarding countering the range poking... 8 of us went all MPL boats in our first waves a couple of nights ago and, as long as we stayed aggressive, we were able to roll over each poker down in turn. Was a ton of fun to boot ... much more so than those protracted pokefests that otherwise occur

Cheers.

Glad my 'advice' was well received.

Some modes are not well suited to Streak use but all are suited to MG. Best 'counter' to the proliferation of MG use is the Streak that we have found and put into use with a high success rate. You get a lock on MG boat, watch them run, squirm, jump, twist and then die.

PM incoming.

o7

[MovinTarget]

TWIAFU, on 11 December 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Glad my 'advice' was well received.

Some modes are not well suited to Streak use but all are suited to MG. Best 'counter' to the proliferation of MG use is the Streak that we have found and put into use with a high success rate. You get a lock on MG boat, watch them run, squirm, jump, twist and then die.

PM incoming.

o7

If you are defending invasion on any map, 1-2 streakboats for later waves usually makes sense (even on boreal)

Any mode where light mechs are important strategically: Conquest, incursion, possibly domination.

It doesn't always have be lights/meds either... one of my fave builds (warning its a little hot if you spam) is the missile Jager with 2 RAC5 and 4 streak2... Has a good inside/outside punch and if you leg those lights, the RACs finish them off PDQ...

When possible, streakboats need TAG and BAP... then hunt in packs to make sure you don't get overwhelmed by ECM, nullifying your effectiveness.

[Mikey Two Guns]

MischiefSC, on 08 December 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

The BLR is old news and not a serious threat to a team with even moderate coordination.

I dunno about that statement... 6LL/6ERLL BLR still trades and projects damage like a champ. And holding off Linebacker/Gargle pushes isn't a hopeless endeavor if you use the 3S variant in particular. This has been my experience so far in the last 3 weeks I have been IS.

This is assuming a proper skill tree and the ability to aim lasers worth a damn. of course.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 December 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

Even SRM Javelins or MPL Wolfhounds will give a MLX pilot a very bad day.

Javelins are food. If someone cant keep a crosshair on that fat torso needs to go back to hold locks pls. Wolfhound is only an issue with a good light pilot and either a poke/trade situation or an open, flat one. If it's a chaotic brawl and I've got any up and down or sporadic cover to hang him up on I can take a WLF. Holding 2 triggers gown, 1 for lasers and one for MGs and just keeping the damage flowing is way less effort than shoot/twist/shoot and no JJs.

Besides, most IS run a medium for 4th wave. That's trouble for the Lynx. So you go on 2 or 3 if it's a tough match.