143 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

You can never equate battletech physics to real physics ... it is a dead end since much of battletech is based on fantasy physics and doesn't really make any sense.

As for mech speeds and engine size ... a 60 ton mech weighs 60 tons in battetech no matter what it is carrying. An empty chassis with just an engine is still a 60 ton mech even if it has 40 tons of unused space. There is no rule in battletech to accomodate reducing total mech weight to facilitate faster speeds. The game doesn't work that way. (It could but it doesn't). As a result, your comparison is completely meaningless. A Rifleman will not carry the same build as a Spider ... it has the hard points and tonnage to use bigger weapons and any reasonable build will do so.

Finally, light mechs don't dominate ... they tend to die quite squishy deaths in most circumstances. Even an assault caught on its own can usually fight a light by backing up and turning as long as it has spent some skill points in the mobility tree. There are decent strategies for most reasonable heavy and assault builds to deal with pesky lights. The worst strategy is to rabbit after them and the second worst is to ignore them (or not pay enough attention to notice that you are taking rear armor damage). The best strategy tends to be to stay with a wing man or two so that the light gets caught in the crossfire. Teamwork for the win to be honest.

[oldradagast]

Rifleman89, on 05 September 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Go ahead and flame all you want. Lights packing weapons they way they can is the problem you are ignoring.

We're ignoring it because light mechs having useful weapon options is not a "problem." Good lord - they can't use over half the weapons in the game effectively simply because of weapon tonnage, and yet light-haters want them to have even fewer options. This is like the idiocy where lights "Shouldn't be good in combat," and where they are instead meant to run around in screaming terror, capping a few things now and then, before being rubbed out helplessly after deploying a UAV.

Light mechs are not red-shirts that "somebody else should play" just so much heavier mechs can feel godly by squishing them by the dozens.

Edited by oldradagast, 05 September 2017 - 04:12 PM.

[TWIAFU]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 September 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Boom Raven OP. Pls kil

Fear the stock engine Urbie with AC20!

FEAR IT!

...please...

[qS Sachiel]

Spoiler

Rifleman89, on 05 September 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

It's a design flaw IMHO, that really needs fixing.
Ask yourself--how does a light have as many slots for the SAME size weapons and SAME SIZE engine as a heavy that is twice its size and weight, in general????

Compare a SDR-5K and a RFL-3N with the same engine and weapons loadouts:
XL 195, Gauss + 2t ammo, Lt Ferro, Endo, DHS

I know, bad design for both, BUT possible. The Spider has to have a bit less than max armor and weighs in at 30t and sports a 105.3 kph speed. The Rifleman can take full armor, weighs in at 37.9t and only goes 52.7kph. Hmmmm........

A 20% Weight increase on the same engine cuts speed in half? Yes, bigger mech, more structure, and more fibers to move said parts, but it's weight that matters right? OK that's really a side point, the real point is a Gauss rifle and engine that are the same size, but take up less space, somehow in the light mech.

Notice ALL mechs currently sport 66 slots. The slots are the 'same size' when it comes to all components, weapons, engines, ammo, etc. -- ALL!?!?! How is this possible???? A skinny, tiny, puny arm and hand of the Spider takes the same weight and size GR and 1t of ammo than the bigger, beefier Rifleman? How does the smaller arm and actuators move a weapon half its overall weight, much less stay standing?? True, structural and armor enhancements are percentage based, but the effect to space and size remains the same. Are you starting to see it?

If I pack a rather large XL into a light it's gonna have to spill over into the side torsos more than the 3 it takes in the double size/weight heavy-- it's the same engine!! A medium laser needs to take up 2 spots in a light or reduce the number in the arm slots to 6 not 12, then the same weapon "fits" on the light the way it should. It can't be half as big and all the weight and do the dame damage??. Same reduction needed for CT and side torsos, and even the head. The same seat and controls for a Raven are all you need for an Atlas, but it has the room for a bigger targeting computer, its triple the size!!

Mediums might need to loose a few slots and certain IS Light engines that are bigger might have to take 3 spaces in the torso, like XLs, Assaults gain some space. The easier way, of course is to revamp weapon sizes and weights, but that won't fix the problem with equal space for all mechs. Perhaps a combination of the 2??

They"ve erroneously made the number of spaces for differing weight classes the same and it"s adding to the Light dominance we see today. This would fix this. Make space with weight matter again. I know this is HUGE for PGI to consider, but it's the right thing to do....

Thanks for reading this.

What is this garbage? Why can't heavier weapons fit on lighter mechs? The spider needs to make severe sacrifices to mount the gauss because it is weight limited. They may have lots of hard points, that just reflects the mounting position an orientation. The total load is limited by weight. Don't dismiss it as a side note just because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

Also, if a weapon like the medium laser weighs one tonne, why does it now weigh 2 on a smaller mech? I see that you are applying the 66global slots/total mech weight argument, therefore each slot on the mech should be lighter for lights and heavier for heavies? Now you are ignoring hard points. The weight and associated space can only occupy certain locations. That frees up the rest of the mech to have structure or ancillary items. Not seeing the problem here.

Also, there are multiple makes of weapons in BT, so it stands to reason that some are built for lights to be more compact and deal the same damage...

Edited by qS Sachiel, 05 September 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[Davegt27]

OP this is how you get shouted down by the more experienced players lol

you next assignment is to ask to buff the Timber Wolf

then after that start a thread on heat

[Dru The Blue]

I came here because I hang out on the Reddit outreach and it's generally agreed upon there that this forum is full of garbage opinions and weak players. I came over just to see if it was really that bad this was the first post I saw so... thanks for confirming that for for me.

[Y E O N N E]

Dru The Blue, on 05 September 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I came here because I hang out on the Reddit outreach and it's generally agreed upon there that this forum is full of garbage opinions and weak players. I came over just to see if it was really that bad this was the first post I saw so... thanks for confirming that for for me.

Welcome to the Brown Sea, enjoy your stay!

[Wil McCullough]

It is my opinion that every mech pilot should play at least two disparate weight classes. Heavy and light. Assault and mediums.

Just to know your favorite class's strengths and weaknesses, how other classes abuse your weaknesses and avoid your strengths, and what you can do to counter that.

Most of this kind of whining is based on a lack of knowledge and proper tactics. The average potato heavy and assault player seems to only want to waddle forward and do the pew pew. Anything that stops them from doing that needs a nerf. Puh leese.

If lights are so op, drop in lights for 15 games and let's see your leaderboard stats for an idea of how "op" they are.

[Carl Vickers]

So should the title of this thread be 'Why light mechs are dominating me'?

[Wildstreak]

OP is forgetting in history, you can have different manufacturers of the same engine rating, same weapon, etc. Each company will build theirs different.

So Wild Inc. builds the Gauss for the Spider while Streak Corp. builds the Gauss for the Rifleman.

Same weapon, same damage, etc. but built differently for different Mechs.

[qS Sachiel]

Wildstreak, on 05 September 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

OP is forgetting in history, you can have different manufacturers of the same engine rating, same weapon, etc. Each company will build theirs different.

So Wild Inc. builds the Gauss for the Spider while Streak Corp. builds the Gauss for the Rifleman.

Same weapon, same damage, etc. but built differently for different Mechs.

Yep I had this on my reply too. Also what's to stop the weapon from protruding outside the mech more (less internal housing)?. But now we are back to applying real world thinking to zap gun sci fi.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Asym, on 05 September 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

Op not only has a point, but is correct in many things he brings up.... This is a game that really is all mumbo-jumbo science....
Logic and physics are not used in this game....sorry... If it were, we'd have an extremly lethal battlespace where just about everybody would be destroyed in the first few minutes.......kinda like real life out there.... But, its a silly game with goofy physics that make absolutly no sense sometimes and PGI has to nerf, tweak, buff and balance the imaginary physics so as to not lose 1/2 of the player base.......

Please, give the OP a break. He is trying to make a valid point.... Lights, right now, many of them, are "out-of-balance" in the convoluted world of this imaginary century... Some lights are min-assaults and are creating a larger fuss that before. OK, it's their turn.

Don't worry, all good things in MWO will pass.........Pretty soon Solaris and MW5 and then, MWO will "be something else...." and many will look back and wish for now to be again....

And that's why there is a thing called science-FICTION
BT/MWO are not real, and we like esactly as they are.

[mouser42]

Running a light mech is like bringing a knife to a gun fight one mistake and your scrap metal. But damn playing on hard mode is so much fun. I have to work my butt off to get 600 damage in a game plus I set a goal of one component for every 150 points of damage that means being useful and hitting R and popping any thing that's open.

Try running a light mech then before telling us light pilots to start using butter knives.......grrr So lets see how OP a light mech is in your hands.

Oh one more thing even if my beloved pirates bane gets nerfed to only using a butter knife in a fight, a lone assault is still toast.

yum.... butter toast with some ECM raspberry jam

Edited by mouser42, 05 September 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[qS Sachiel]

Anyone remember the mcg cinematic where the raven baits the timby into a dead end, hunchback and centurion turn him around and the raven performs the coup de grace from behind?

Pepperidge farm remembers.

[4rcs1ne]

Lights face social injustice unlike any other weight class. Lights are inferior to every other weight class,hence the abnormally low queue numbers. Lights are very fragile, one good hit and your dead. When you play a light, you are literally on a razor's edge. So, I really don't see how lights are "dominating."

P.S. The OP was so incoherently written that I could only respond to the title. I doubt he passed English 101.

Edited by Matt2496, 05 September 2017 - 07:18 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Where did the mean nasty Locust touched you?

Did my little Urbanmech failed to die when you hit me?

Or did my Gauss Urbanmech head-shotted you so bad?

Did my adorable K9 bite you in the *** too that you have to cry about it?

Did the widdle raven Narced you in Polar Highlands?

Maybe that despicable Kit-Fox didn't let any of your LRMs hit?

Or War_Glaivez got to your rear with his 6 C-ERML?

Okay, actually trying to answer you in a serious manner.

Rifleman89, on 05 September 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

Ask yourself--how does a light have as many slots for the SAME size weapons and SAME SIZE engine as a heavy that is twice its size and weight, in general?

Because it's a game. If reality is applied, BT just falls apart, and it's not just the lights. One must appeal to the current state of the game, not reality to invoke balancing changes. And being fiction, being "just game" developers have the option of not adhering to what "makes sense", so that we can have a balanced game.

While you think those slots are a big deal, Lights are already limited by low amount of tonnage that allots to only a little amount of equipment than the heavier classes, along with low armor that means it could not survive as much punishment as the larger class. It's only saving grace is it's speed.

And if you think that it's dominating the game, ask your self why there's only such a small population playing them as opposed to heavies or mediums? That's like saying women are paid 0.77 cents for every dollar a man makes for the same job -- but why wouldn't employers just employ women so they save 23% of the money for themselves, than salary for their employees? Same case, why wouldn't just people flock over to the nearest OP mech and dominate/equalize the game?

As a newbie, lights seemed too fragile to me that i went with a Timber Wolf first. How i think Lights would dominate the game, is that possibly mostly experienced people are the ones who play as lights, and those experienced players making up the small amount of player base they are dominating rookies' asses they come across, possibly such as you. After all Veteran vs Rookie, it's most likely that the Vet would win.

But that's just me.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 September 2017 - 07:38 PM.

[4rcs1ne]

oldradagast, on 05 September 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

We're ignoring it because light mechs having useful weapon options is not a "problem." Good lord - they can't use over half the weapons in the game effectively simply because of weapon tonnage, and yet light-haters want them to have even fewer options. This is like the idiocy where lights "Shouldn't be good in combat," and where they are instead meant to run around in screaming terror, capping a few things now and then, before being rubbed out helplessly after deploying a UAV.

Light mechs are not red-shirts that "somebody else should play" just so much heavier mechs can feel godly by squishing them by the dozens.

I agree. IMO, this all boils down to one word: fun. Lights should be good in combat because combat is the most fun aspect of this game. Capping, placing UAV's etc. is just simply not fun comparatively speaking.

This entire mentality that only mediums, heavies, and assaults are the only ones allowed to combat effective is not only asinine from a game design perspective, but also completely unfair and discriminatory.

[Shadowomega1]

Deathlike, on 05 September 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

*snip*
Selective timing where the majority of the time, it's usually what been said before... Light queue is nominally sub-10% queues most of the time. If you saw it higher, it was certainly under very different circumstances (especially when it comes to events, where it may require Lights for the achievements).

As I stated it was various time throughout the week end, and I saw it ebb and flow like the tide.

Prototelis, on 05 September 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Oh God no.

Light on Light is always bad.

And it depends on whether you play a fast or slow light.

Like the Pirates Bane has no place in a firing line.... ever. Much better at gathering target data and getting big reds to turn by drawing a little aggro and fading.

I never said all out engagement, I said Harass, meaning to engage for a short time and force the enemy to disengage. If you make them bug out that is time they are not shooting your team, and depending on the map and combat situation your light mech will not be able to get in close enough to deal with the enemies heavier mechs.

In a slower more support mech even burning some armor off them with a laser is enough to force the enemy light to disengage and try from another angle. Not to mention an ally might see your Laser going somewhere he isn't looking and may turn to see that enemy light.

[Novakaine]

[Kiiyor]

This is the first ever mechwarrior title where light mechs are even moderately viable competitive choices, and even then, you have to work extremely haaaaard for the money when compared to mechs from other weight classes.

Normally, i'll approach a complaint thread from a neutral posture... but I spit on any suggestion to nerf lights, and I'm nowhere near the prolific light pilot that I used to be.

Put your big boy pants on, OP. There's an old saying: if you want to run with big dogs, you've got to learn to piss on big trees - and in the case of light mechs, the trees have all the advantages.