254 replies to this topic

[Luminis]

Now, if only Tier 1 was indicative of player skill, that'd be nice.

As it stands, even players who are slightly below average can reach T1 eventually and the matchmaker still perceives them as equal to players who should be in leagues of their own but aren't because T1 is the cap. The problem wasn't, isn't and won't be solved by tightening the Tier spread as long as the skill gap within the same Tier remains comically high.

I know it's just a band-aid fix to appease us, but I sure hope the band-aid gets replaced with a real fix for once.

[KodiakGW]

Played five games tonight before moving over to Planetside 2. Played from about 9:30PM-11PM EST (prime time). About the same wait times as before, so I didn't really notice any increase. Out of the five, three were actually pretty decent fights. Bit better than before, where 1 in 6 would be decent. Could be MM was cutting me a break tonight. Had five wins in a row, one death.

Still, had two games where it seemed some people were in the wrong bucket.





Edit: Checked my stats. Only 4 games. I remember now I clicked to play my new MDD, and backed out after a 20 second wait to play a medium instead. So 1/2 my games seems decently matched. The two above were not.

Edited by KodiakGW, 08 September 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[MrMadguy]

This change is useless without PSR system change. I mean, ok, now my matches will be better, cuz I won't be matched against Tier 1. But... PSR system is XP bar and once my matches will improve - my rating will start to rise immediately. And I'm at 90% Tier 3 now. Just a few good games and I'll advance to Tier 2, where... Yeah, I will be matched against Tier 1 again. No, thanks. This change makes game better for Tier 1-2s only.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 September 2017 - 10:13 PM.

[InfinityBall]

Tiewolf, on 07 September 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

The fact that veteran players found tactics to dominate others and force everybody to adopt those tactics or have a bad experience doesn`t make anything right or makes you a better player.

Uh, it's literally the definition of being a better player.

[kapusta11]

Poitless change. Matchmaker should stop treating me, an average player, and someone like prtnSPZ with 5+ K/D and W/L ratios as equals.

[Black Ivan]

If PSR and Tiers would actually measure skill and not be just an XP bar I would say it is a good tjhing, but since they are not. Just another band aid to keep players from the continuing shrinking playerbase

[Valkyrie73]

the wait times are bad now

[Kotzi]

Yes, because personal skill determines how good a teamplayer you are...

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

If this means I can achieve a win without having to bring a stompy mech then I'll be very happy !

I will revamp my cutefox and ready it for launch for the real test.

[Tiewolf]

kuma8877, on 07 September 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

Are you saying that basic combat maneuvering, using cover, playing to the strengths of the topography of a map, and trying to gain an advantage to win the match are bad things? Of course the use of tactics in combat type scenarios are designed to dominate the enemy....1000's of years of warfare have taught these lessons. If a player has ANY experience at PVP/combat based video games, this stuff SHOULD all be common sense.

Every time I've heard a newer player ask legitimate questions about how the systems, loadouts and game in general work, I've ALWAYS seen them get a response (or given one myself if I knew the answer) with usually good info and some opinions and pointers. Problem is, many don't ask. Who's fault is that?

And also going to point out, that when one is trying to learn something or get better at something, they don't go to those of lesser knowledge to teach/show them new things, they go to those who demonstrate knowledge and ability in the subject they want to learn that surpasses their own. The New Player Help forum is a great resource. As is Youtube and spectating other good players after your death. I think we often end up with players that don't actually want to learn to play (tho they want to be good)and they demonstrate that by not taking advantage of what basic resources are available in the vast majority of gaming communities today.

Combat maneuvering and tactics are never a bad thing and you get me wrong if you think I am against it. What I say is, that a lot of players (I assume the majority) are limited in their resources like time to watch all the YouTube stuff, get a great internet connection or can spare the free time to join a pro unit to teach em how to mechwarrioronline. Telling those players over and over again to just learn something when they lack the resources and drive to learn it cause they have other things to take care in real live then training how to execute mwo tactics is just nonsense. The problem comes when the players that sacrifice their resources to learn to execute those tactics forces everybody else to adopt or drop out of the game. If the range of abilities between players differ too much like it does in T1 and the MM in general you create this phenomena. Not only in mwo. And just learning doesn't solve anything as long as you have different resourceful players witch you will always have. You have to separate this groups to keep em both in the game to support its development. Pgi does a poor job here with the known results.

Edited by Tiewolf, 08 September 2017 - 12:15 AM.

[Thorqemada]

Well, imo it is a positive thing that PGI tries something with the MM.
Its a short Announcement-Text and easy to understand what they did.

Waiting Times in Tier 2 were acceptable to short.
Games, well, when a 65t Mech is the 3rd lightest...i mean, yeah...Try Hard Land - i could do next to nothing bcs i move to slow, the trades are bad, the target area of my Mech to big, the Hardpoints unfavourable etc. so i had from 38 to 150 damage all kind of games interrupted by a few 500 to 700 damage games when the Reds are less focussed and less Meta, less Clan.

Imho they can reduce the buckets to 3 pools:
1+2
2+3+4
4+5
When they waiting time is too long on top and bottom they can make the target Tier 1 bucket wider (1+2+3 and 4+5+3) making 3 the Joker-Pool for Top and Bottom MM.
Ofc they can not prevent alt accounts to wreck havoc in lower Tiers.

PS: I expect this will lead to a better balancing bcs the game-statistics will become more relevant and the game-dynamics more obvious so that conclusion making will be closer to the spot.

Edited by Thorqemada, 08 September 2017 - 12:24 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

InfinityBall, on 07 September 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

Uh, it's literally the definition of being a better player.

If by "tactics" he meant "most OP builds" then its true. I can win most hands in poker if i start every hand with two aces, that doesnt make me a good poker player at all.

[meteorol]

I'd say roll it back.

Games won't get better as long as half of the players in T1 actually belong into T3/4. It just increases waiting times without providing better matches.

[El Bandito]

Valkyrie73, on 07 September 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

the wait times are bad now

Nah, I didn't see much difference in terms of wait time. Just glad I don't have to fight with/against T3 scrubs.

meteorol, on 08 September 2017 - 12:27 AM, said:

I'd say roll it back.

Games won't get better as long as half of the players in T1 actually belong into T3/4. It just increases waiting times without providing better matches.

I'd rather play with T1 guys who actually belong to T3, than T3 guys themselves--those guys might actually belong to T5.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 September 2017 - 12:29 AM.

[Lykaon]

Tiewolf, on 07 September 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

I am sorry but that is not happening here in MWo. The only thing that you try to justify with "learning" is the enjoyment to club inexerienced players. They learn nothing cause nobody tells em why they died or what they can do better. And even if they knew it, it takes a lot of practice time, map knowledge, strategy, communication, the right equipment (like a mouse with more then 2 buttons or a mic), A GOOD PING and so on to pull it off.
Did you ever consider the fact that if no one would use cover, focus targets, seek good trades etc. nobody would have a problem or have to "learn" something?
The fact that veteran players found tactics to dominate others and force everybody to adopt those tactics or have a bad experience doesn`t make anything right or makes you a better player. if everybody would adopt the tryhards tactics they would create new tactics or use equipment the others can`t affort till they dominate again. I short it will never gona happen that the majority of players catch up so plz stop preaching this you only have to learn bull**** on the forum cause its a dynamic process where you can`t catch up by learning cause the dominators don`t want other ppl on an equal footing .

Ok...let me digest this for a sec...

Ok...think I get what you are saying but,you seem to be allowing a venomous viewpoint to cloud your judgment.

I will point out a few obvious misconceptions you have put to the forum.

If the tier differences are tightened to +/- one level then what inexperienced players are you refering to? and who is doing the clubbing? if a player is tier 4 and another tier 4 defeats them who counts as the experienced clubber? They probably have similar number of matches. Is the victor always guilty of abuse? If you do view it this way then you need to step back and contemplate why you are playing a PvP game. Sometimes ou will have a tier 1 fighting a tier 2 but overall the team values should balance for experience levels. For the most part our previous matchmaker balanced the overall team composition so the combined experience values of either team were more or less equal.

Or are you confusing aptitude with experience? Aptitude being how quickly a player assimilates successful technique and tactics while experience is the sheer volume of play time experienced. While someone can gain aptitude from experience others will lack aptitude dispite having played more matches.

As to not knowing what caused a negative result ( "why they died" ) how many times should it take someone to perform a mistake before they realize it was a mistake? Do I need to tell someone that X causes death if every time they perform X they die? there comes a point where you learn what a mistake is and avoid them or fail to gain aptitude dispite experiencing the results of the repeated mistake.

For the record I do try to be helpful and maybe a third of the time I get a possitive reply the other two thirds the player out right rejects any recommendations I make ( after all these years I have managed to figure out a few things worth passing on)

Now I have to agree with you, Players who never learn from mistakes can achieve tier 1 simply by playing a large number of matches. This is a failing of the metrics used to determine tier advances. Sadly I think many players would not actually enjoy a tighter metric determining tier because it would affirm "potato status" or "tryhard status" either can be used to negative efffect on the forums "so and so is just tier 5 so what do they know" low tier players opinions are immediatley dismissed on grounds of lacking the ability to know better while tier 1 opinions will be lorded over because they "earned it".

I also agree that a proper investment in gaming gear is a large part of success in gaming and it's a noticable improvement to have a good rig and gaming oriented periferals (keyboard/mouse/headset w/mic etc)

If however your point is to say that players that do have "nice things" are seal clubbing inexperienced players then I would like to point out that formula one racing is not done with 15 year old Camarys ( try as I may I just get laughed at when I show my toyota to the race officials) and as such competative levels are limited to those who can afford the proper entry level equipment.

Essentially don't expect to be on a level playing field in MWo if you ping is 300+ and your GPU and CPU are 5 generations behind the tech curve.

Um... now onto the part that baffled me...

When players defined successful tactics that achieved a high rate of success they were obviously successful more often. And this is pretty much the very deffinition of "being good at the game" Geting possitive results with a higher rate of frequency is what being good at a game is all about.

So bottom line and you need to understand this players who adopt/create tactics that create possitive results ARE BETTER players than the players who fail to adapt or develope aptitude. These players win because they understand what gets possitive results. Players who do not ever learn what works where/when and what to do to counter this or that are less skillful than those players who do grasp those principles.

As for the "tryhards" adapting to new tactics to evolve to defeat a prevailing tactic (possibly a tactic they themselves created) Is precisely why they will be better players than those who never learn how to adapt. What is preventing those players from countering the "tryhard" counter tactics?

One thing...aptitude. If they lack it they are simply not as skilled if they do succeed wouldn't this then make them "tryhards" since they changed tactics to overcome a prevailing tactic?

And um...what do you mean by "use equipment others can't afford" if the tier level of players is more or less +/- one wouldn't at this point in the player's gaming careers they have access to the same equipment?

Trust me a tier one player can not buy anything a tier 5 can't the difference is the tier 1 may have the cash on hand and the tier 5 may need to play a day before they get that same item.

Also if I am any indication of what the average bank account of an "old timer" looks like I'm under 4 million because LFEs are costly and over a 100 mechs in need of tech upgrades is even more so. If the game "meta" shifted tomorrow I would have about 4 million to meet the demands of the new meta, So not exactally a huge edge worth mentioning.

[adamts01]

KodiakGW, on 07 September 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

Played five games tonight before moving over to Planetside 2.

That new Planetside update Critical Mass can't come soon enough, even out faction pops and hopefully limit zerging. That game, this game and Arma need to have a baby. Might as well talk about Planetside, since tiers mean nothing and this change will do less than nothing. OK, back to Esamir, even though it's pretty slow until the Asians get on. Then it's jam packed with players and laggy. Yay Planetside!!

[QuantumButler]

Guess T1s don't get to play anymore.

[Thorqemada]

Very probably the pool of T2s is big enough to be feed to T1s and hardened enough to not run right away...maybe T1s arent the most battle hardened Players in this game...?

[Skipmagnet]

Yeah, nah. I get yelled at enough for just playing the game, i dont need every spergy T1 on my team also ******** on me for not bringing meta. Nope nope nope. The only way this would be a welcome change for me is if it came with a complete PSR reset for everyone and a completely re-calc'd PSR system, which we're never getting.



So... yeah. Guess I get to abandon the account I spent all that money on and go make a new one until PGI undoes this. "Fun," said Noone ever.

[El Bandito]

QuantumButler, on 08 September 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

Guess T1s don't get to play anymore.

Didn't players whine about how overbloated T1 is, with this upwards biased PSR system? There should be no problem queuing as a T1.