51 replies to this topic

[Alan Davion]

Was just watching Baradul's latest video where he uses the Gargoyle Hero "Kin Wolf" running with an LB20X and 5 ER Mediums and he drops this little bombshell about PGI implementing a Battle Value system. Actually had to stop halfway through his video and poke around on the website.

There's nothing about it on the front page, nothing on Russ' Twitter feed either, so can someone point out where and when this was said?

Because I have to be honest, I think PGI might finally have gone just completely and collectively batshit insane if they think a BV system has even a snowballs chance in hell of working here, especially with how utterly broken a lot of game mechanics still are.

Are they going to actually go back and fix all the problems that have existed since Day One of Closed Beta? Because unless they do there's seriously no way I can imagine a BV system working in the current MWO setup.

[Metus regem]

A BV system doesn't actually make a lot of sense for MWO, as how will they assign a value for the pilots? Not all T1 pilot are created equal after all...

I would say it's a safer bet that Baradul was talking out of their backside.

[JC Daxion]

Yes they are, it is part of the solaris update.

[El Bandito]

JC Daxion, on 11 September 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Yes they are, it is part of the solaris update.

That makes more sense.

[Khalcruth]

Well, they said they were going to somehow be dividing mechs into tiers for their Solaris implementation. I'd expect that a BV system would help with that.

In any case, I'd say it was a great idea. Instead of dropdecks by tonnage, you could have them by BV. Like, for example, 1000 - 8000 BV. If you really wanted to, you could take 4 atlases with two small lasers a piece. Want to take the greatest meta-alphastriker around? Ok, but it'll actually limit what you can arm your other 3 mechs with.

[Tarogato]

It's a very very truncated BV system. It's less of a BV system, and actually a tier system. So for instance, making this up arbitrarily:

Tier 1: Spider, Locust, Commando, Mist Lynx, Adder
Tier 2. Arctic Cheetah, Wolfhound, Assassin, Viper, Vindicator
Tier 3. Phoenix Hawk, Centurion, Crab, Shadow Cat
Tier 4. Bushwacker, Griffin, Stormcrow, Nova, Huntsman, Quickdraw
Tier 5. Rifleman, Jager, Catapult, Thunderbolt
Tier 6. Grasshopper, Warhammer, Night Gyr, Ebon Jaguar
Tier 7. Mad Dog, Gargoyle, Orion IIC, Victor, Zeus
Tier 8. Battlemaster, Highlander, Executioner
Tier 9. Cyclops, Mauler, Kodiak, Atlas, Annihilator, Mad Cat Mk.II



So it's not according to tonnage, strictly, but adjusted based on performance. It will be used for 1v1 and 2v2 matchmaking in solaris, and Russ noted that if it works well, they'll probably try using it for Quickplay matchmaking as well.

[Davegt27]

CEV
combat effectiveness rating
seems like a good idea to me

[Alan Davion]

Tarogato, on 11 September 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

It's a very very truncated BV system. It's less of a BV system, and actually a tier system. So for instance, making this up arbitrarily:

Tier 1: Spider, Locust, Commando, Mist Lynx, Adder
Tier 2. Arctic Cheetah, Wolfhound, Assassin, Viper, Vindicator
Tier 3. Phoenix Hawk, Centurion, Crab, Shadow Cat
Tier 4. Bushwacker, Griffin, Stormcrow, Nova, Huntsman, Quickdraw
Tier 5. Rifleman, Jager, Catapult, Thunderbolt
Tier 6. Grasshopper, Warhammer, Night Gyr, Ebon Jaguar
Tier 7. Mad Dog, Gargoyle, Orion IIC, Victor, Zeus
Tier 8. Battlemaster, Highlander, Executioner
Tier 9. Cyclops, Mauler, Kodiak, Atlas, Annihilator, Mad Cat Mk.II



So it's not according to tonnage, strictly, but adjusted based on performance. It will be used for 1v1 and 2v2 matchmaking in solaris, and Russ noted that if it works well, they'll probably try using it for Quickplay matchmaking as well.

So maybe they're finally catching on to the fact that you can't tier the players, you have to tier the machines like in WoT and WoWs?

[razenWing]

Alan Davion, on 11 September 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

So maybe they're finally catching on to the fact that you can't tier the players, you have to tier the machines like in WoT and WoWs?

That system is so asinine and goes against everything they've done to f- with the balance of the game. I am personally not against any of you guys that like the system, but if PGI is planning to do it that way and admit that... yes, some mechs just are better than the others... then..

1) Un-nerf all the mechs that I paid real money for
2) Quirk mechs that used to have a lot of quirks that got needlessly nerfed form the skill patch

If 1 and 2 are satisfied, then they can do whatever BV they want to implement. (Also, they do realize, some particular builds are just OP under the right hand right? Quickdraw, for example, is a junk mech for almost everyone except top tier, where the 1% pilot them like they are the greatest thing ever. Are we going to see a BV/Ranking Combo system? Interesting to see...)

[Bigbacon]

unless the BV takes into account the mech build...then it is useless.

weight differences don't matter if you get 4 100 LOLAssaults with nothing but MGs and SL and the other side get low ton assaults with laser vomit or PPFLD meta builds.

when a 8 LMG lynx can pop a 100 tonner in a few seconds it doesn't matter anyway.

its another one of those things I will gladly screw up just to make people mad. I'll take a top tier mech with the junkiest build imaginable....because

Edited by Bigbacon, 11 September 2017 - 08:54 AM.

[razenWing]

Bigbacon, on 11 September 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

unless the BV takes into account the mech build...then it is useless.

weight differences don't matter if you get 4 100 LOLAssaults with nothing but MGs and SL and the other side get low ton assaults with laser vomit or PPFLD meta builds.

when a 8 LMG lynx can pop a 100 tonner in a few seconds it doesn't matter anyway.

its another one of those things I will gladly screw up just to make people mad. I'll take a top tier mech with the junkiest build imaginable....because

Or the junkiest mech with a top tier build to farm wins...

(I mean, shat... I can totally see theb33f make a video about it and/or any of the Uber Tier Try Hards doing this for 2 months until PGI decide poor nooblets got enough beating and shut it down...)

Edited by razenWing, 11 September 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Tarogato, on 11 September 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

It's a very very truncated BV system. It's less of a BV system, and actually a tier system. So for instance, making this up arbitrarily:

Tier 1: Spider, Locust, Commando, Mist Lynx, Adder
Tier 2. Arctic Cheetah, Wolfhound, Assassin, Viper, Vindicator
Tier 3. Phoenix Hawk, Centurion, Crab, Shadow Cat
Tier 4. Bushwacker, Griffin, Stormcrow, Nova, Huntsman, Quickdraw
Tier 5. Rifleman, Jager, Catapult, Thunderbolt
Tier 6. Grasshopper, Warhammer, Night Gyr, Ebon Jaguar
Tier 7. Mad Dog, Gargoyle, Orion IIC, Victor, Zeus
Tier 8. Battlemaster, Highlander, Executioner
Tier 9. Cyclops, Mauler, Kodiak, Atlas, Annihilator, Mad Cat Mk.II



So it's not according to tonnage, strictly, but adjusted based on performance. It will be used for 1v1 and 2v2 matchmaking in solaris, and Russ noted that if it works well, they'll probably try using it for Quickplay matchmaking as well.

LOL, and this will solve MMaking tier 1 potatoes with $h1t stats facing decent players.... LOL

[Valhallan]

Man i wish they would go for a real BV system. Solaris would be a good place to do the necessary value adjusting. Leaving QP as a safe haven from the frequent changes until it's ready.

And yea the TT system did account for gear (yea yea it had flaws and could be gamed, which is why such a system needs to be frequently adjusted, printed rules based on internal games are rough at doing this which is why it wasn't that good outside of say stock play) every weapon and armor point + the base mech had a bv value. For MWO they would also likely have to assign a value multiplier to things like high mounted points and thin wonky hitboxes. But after a baseline is clear? yes, quarks can get removed, unnerfs can happen, weapons and new mechs can be easily added. It would be beautiful, if it ever got there of course.Tier system cannot account for bad builds, but a real bv system could. Yea Pilots cannot be entirely bved (well they could in TT but only because they got a numerical grade, pilots were essentially a flat multiplier on the equipment) that part needs an elo thing, but at least the stuff being brought in would be "equal".

[Mr Snrub]

Yeah, I don't believe for a second that will improve matchmaking in any way.

Also not looking forward to the arguments: 'Hey I did 225 damage in a tier 6 mech, that's better than your 413 damage in a tier 2, you noobish waste of space'.

Maybe I'll just take another break.

[MechaBattler]

It's probably only for Solaris. So clench or unclench, it won't likely effect the current modes of play.

[Alan Davion]

Valhallan, on 11 September 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

Man i wish they would go for a real BV system.

Except a BV system like in TT will unequivocally not work in a FPS system like MWO. For instance, it worked in TT because your dice rolls determined if and where you hit. You only had to worry about modifiers such as if you or your target were on different height levels.

Here in MWO, how do you account for super high mounted weapons, like for instance the super high ballistic mounts on the Kodiak? You would have to take every mech in the game and draw lines across where their weapons are placed, and then determine an appropriate Plus or Minus value depending on where the weapon was placed to increase or decrease said weapons value... Which gets into one huge can of worms.

Let's go back to those super high mounts for the Kodiak for a moment, since we know that certain KDKs can mount ballistic, energy or missile weapons there. Do you increase the BV of just the ballistic weapons since that's generally what the KDK-3 equips?

That's just one of the mountain of questions that would have to be answered for a full, game sweeping BV system to be implemented. Do you only give a flat increase or decrease to BV depending on weapon placement, or does the actual weapon type play a part in that increase or decrease as well?

It's honestly too much work for PGI to put in given how utterly broken a lot of game mechanics still are, and it's so overly complicated that they'd invariably screw it up even further if they tried.

[Mr Snrub]

MechaBattler, on 11 September 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

It's probably only for Solaris. So clench or unclench, it won't likely effect the current modes of play.

Let's hope so.

But I saw the same video as the OP, and it sounded like - at least Baradul believes - it will effect more than Solaris.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Where can I ind someone from PGI talking a BV system?

Oh nvm:

Quote

All 'Mechs in the game will be classified into a limited number of Solaris Divisions based on their most-optimized Loadouts specific to small engagements. Solaris Pilots will be matched within the Division of their current 'Mech; Division 1 'Mechs will only face off against other Division 1 'Mechs.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 11 September 2017 - 11:45 AM.

[Luminis]

Alan Davion, on 11 September 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Except a BV system like in TT will unequivocally not work in a FPS system like MWO

The primary issue is that having low BV fodder is okay in the TT because losing a low BV fodder 'Mech isn't a lost game for a player. In MWO, every 'Mech is also a player.

[Valhallan]

Alan Davion, on 11 September 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Except a BV system like in TT will unequivocally not work in a FPS system like MWO. For instance, it worked in TT because your dice rolls determined if and where you hit. You only had to worry about modifiers such as if you or your target were on different height levels.

Valhallan, on 11 September 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

Yea Pilots cannot be entirely bved (well they could in TT but only because they got a numerical grade, pilots were essentially a flat multiplier on the equipment) that part needs an elo thing, but at least the stuff being brought in would be "equal".

Alan Davion, on 11 September 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Here in MWO, how do you account for super high mounted weapons, like for instance the super high ballistic mounts on the Kodiak? You would have to take every mech in the game and draw lines across where their weapons are placed, and then determine an appropriate Plus or Minus value depending on where the weapon was placed to increase or decrease said weapons value... Which gets into one huge can of worms.

Valhallan, on 11 September 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

For MWO they would also likely have to assign a value multiplier to things like high mounted points and thin wonky hitboxes.

Its as simple as high mount = item bv x 1.5 in slot or something, there is nothing that "hard" about doing that, remember there is already something that checks the item for slot placement when something has multiple slots in an area (like why large weapons can't be stuffed into the 2 high points of the mal90x) tack the multiplier to that. there's really only 3 anyway, high, mid and knuckle low.

Alan Davion, on 11 September 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

It's honestly too much work for PGI to put in given how utterly broken a lot of game mechanics still are, and it's so overly complicated that they'd invariably screw it up even further if they tried.

Their volumetric scaling thing was roughly the same effort. The "screwing up" part as i've mentioned every time i stump for bv is something i can't refute because well can't say if they can do it until they do it. But then my only point was that the system itself would be great.

No one playing low BV "fodder" actually depends on how you look at it, remember some people always take mediums and lights anyway, despite these being definitively worse than heavies/assaults (the mm will eventually open valves, but some don't want to wait, while others are ok with giving their "bv" to others).