56 replies to this topic

[Mutlak]

This topic previously posted in support and feedback based on Van mw advice im moved it to general :
This is the previous post :

Even with the new skill tree my assault with fully upgraded AMS still taking a lot of damage from LRM. Lately a lot of match result ( winning or losing) seems only determined by number of LRM in each side. Whoever got more LRM ended up winning most of the time even if opposite team got AMS.
I believed at least AMS should have been more effective for countering LRM - not just reduced damage from taking missiles; but single ams capable to disabling single dedicated LRM boat-assault is not that fast in terms of mobility.
What do you think ?
; Anyone got different opinion ?

Any other idea ?

[Bombast]

AMS kills something like 6-8 LRMs out of an IS 'bundle,' which is pretty hard core already. Can't count how many times I've seen LRMs COMPLETELY countered just due to AMS. And then there's ECM, which prevents locks in the first place. And terrain. And all the other 'elitist' responses to LRMs being 'OP.'

As it is now, LRMs are not over powered. Sometimes, on some maps, they perform really well, but on others their worthless.

As for why you, specifically, are having LRM problems... you're tromping around in an Assault mech. That's the downside of having 40+ tons of weaponry and 19 tons of armor - Everything on the map is trying to pound you into paste. Including the LRM boats. Try to not hang around too much out of cover.

[Jun Watarase]

Its a 1.5 ton investment that protects you against much more than 1.5 tons worth of LRMs as it is.

[Trissila]

Mutlak, on 14 September 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

I believed at least AMS should have been more effective for countering LRM - not just reduced damage from taking missiles; but single ams capable to disabling single dedicated LRM boat-assault is not that fast in terms of mobility.
What do you think ?
; Anyone got different opinion ?

Any other idea ?

I think that 1.5 tons of equipment/ammo completely countering some 40 tons of weapons and ammo is one of the worst balancing ideas I've ever heard.

Your problem is that you are expecting AMS to make you invincible and let you completely ignore missiles. It does not. It is insurance for when you screw up. You shouldn't be getting that many missiles heading your way in the first place. Use the terrain. Make smart pokes and trades. Don't expose yourself for long periods of time to be tracked. Invest in Radar Deprivation.

[Sandpit]

Even with AMS you can't just derp out in the open against lurms. You still need to stick to cover, keep your exposure limited, etc. AMS will do a good job on lurms, but if you've only got one and the enemy team is launching 100+ lurms at you (not hard to do if they've got 2-3 mechs with a few lurm launchers) then it's just going to get overwhelmed.

AMS is great against lurms in general though. My buddies and I usually have 2-3 between us at minimum and just laugh as we watch lurms get destroyed long before they get through all that AMS fire.

[El Bandito]

Mutlak, on 14 September 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

This topic previously posted in support and feedback based on Van mw advice im moved it to general :
This is the previous post :

Even with the new skill tree my assault with fully upgraded AMS still taking a lot of damage from LRM. Lately a lot of match result ( winning or losing) seems only determined by number of LRM in each side. Whoever got more LRM ended up winning most of the time even if opposite team got AMS.
I believed at least AMS should have been more effective for countering LRM - not just reduced damage from taking missiles; but single ams capable to disabling single dedicated LRM boat-assault is not that fast in terms of mobility.
What do you think ?
; Anyone got different opinion ?

Any other idea ?

The question is: Why do you think a mere 1 ton equipment should be able to counter 20 tons worth of weapon system?


And before everyone says it, yes, ECM still needs rework.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 September 2017 - 06:41 AM.

[Trissila]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

The question is: Why do you think a mere 1 ton equipment should be able to counter 20 tons worth of weapon system?


And before everyone says it, yes, ECM still needs rework.

Why? Between TAG, NARC, and Active Probe, I'd say ECM has plenty of comparable-cost counters.

[El Bandito]

Trissila, on 14 September 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

Why? Between TAG, NARC, and Active Probe, I'd say ECM has plenty of comparable-cost counters.

You are not entirely correct on cost effectiveness.

1. TAG only works up to 750 meters, costs an energy slot, and paints a big bullseye on the spotter. ECM has no such risks.

2. NARC costs twice as much tonnage, without including ammo, and requires one to get within 500 meters, and then hit the actual target.

3. BAP works only around 200 meters range. Sure, you can equip more than one of the equipment listed above, but the weight/slot cost will also increase.


However, this thread is about AMS--and I think OP's proposal regarding a 1 ton AMS to completely counter a dedicated LRM boat to be ridiculous.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 September 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[Sandpit]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

You are not entirely correct on cost effectiveness.

1. TAG only works up to 750 meters, costs an energy slot, and paints a big bullseye on the spotter. ECM has no such risks.

2. NARC costs twice as much tonnage, without including ammo, and requires one to get within 500 meters, and then hit the actual target.

3. BAP works only around 200 meters range.


Sure, you can equip more than one of the equipment listed above, but the weight/slot cost will also increase.

in all that you forgot to mention
ECM = 90 meter range (unless you invest in skill tree)
It takes up 2 slots (just because it doesn't take up a specific hardpoint doesn't mean you carry it for free)
It weighs 1.5 tons

[El Bandito]

Sandpit, on 14 September 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

in all that you forgot to mention
ECM = 90 meter range (unless you invest in skill tree)
It takes up 2 slots (just because it doesn't take up a specific hardpoint doesn't mean you carry it for free)
It weighs 1.5 tons

Sure ECM has 90 meter radius, but once upgraded, within that 90 meter radius friendlies are cloaked at any distance except at brawl range. Its weight and slot requirements are insignificant compared to its function--even more so as Clan.

TBF, I wouldn't even be talking about ECM, if it actually functioned like its canon version, where it only delays lock, not completely render LRMs useless.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 September 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

The question is: Why do you think a mere 1 ton equipment should be able to counter 20 tons worth of weapon system?
.

If it's raining, an umbrella will help. If it's raining really freaking hard, an umbrella still helps, but you're still going to get wet.

[Sandpit]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Sure ECM has 90 meter radius, but once upgraded, within that 90 meter radius friendlies are cloaked at any distance except at brawl range. Its weight and slot requirements are insignificant compared to its function--even more so as Clan.

TBF, I wouldn't even be talking about ECM, if it actually functioned like its canon version, where it only delays lock, not completely render LRMs useless.

I'm just pointing out that when you look at actual numbers, like you used, then ECM isn't out of whack comparatively in size, tonnage, range, etc.

But we're hijacking this thread to talk about ECM at this point, OP is needing help with AMS strategies

[Spheroid]

lurms suck sorry dude. Maybe you should run meta like the Battlemaster-2C and solve your mobility and lurm problem at the same time.

[Thorqemada]

Use Cover, have your Lights kill off the Lurm-Boats (have fun if they are Clan bcs Clan has room for Backup-Weapons), dont expect AMS to make you invulnerable.

As you advance in Skill and Tier you will find out that you never ever move open bcs the Long Range Snipers at the higher Tiers will kill you with thier Gauss/ERPPC/ERLaser and even Long Range Autocannons much quicker than LRM ever will.

You allways move close to cover and only cross open ground if you can for sure epxect not to get hit by something serious.
If you cross open ground you can also use supression fire to prevent an enemy to shot at you and a LRM only will hit you if the Lurmer can hold his lock on you (as long you move, if you stay around they only need the crosshair over you) and maybe the Lumers have a Spotter that targets you and shares the Targetinfo with the Lurmer - in that case drive of the enemy Spotter.

Eventually you will see at higher Tiers Lurm are pretty much extinct bcs every other Weapon will hit you harder and kill you quicker.

Assaults in MWO are big slow Targets which is why many Players use them as Support and not as Frontline Mechs.

Maybe you should try a nimble Heavy Mech that goes twice as fast as an Assault with almost the same Firepower but way less exposure time.

[Wiley Coyote]

This sounds like a "LRMS OP!" topic but without actually saying "LRMS OP!".

[Sandpit]

Wiley Coyote, on 14 September 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

This sounds like a "LRMS OP!" topic but without actually saying "LRMS OP!".

It sounds more like a new player asking for help and a bunch of salty aholes hijacking the thread and offering nothing in the way of tips and advice to me

[Savage Wolf]

Sandpit, on 14 September 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm just pointing out that when you look at actual numbers, like you used, then ECM isn't out of whack comparatively in size, tonnage, range, etc.

But we're hijacking this thread to talk about ECM at this point, OP is needing help with AMS strategies

Normally you have a 800 m sensor range. But it's only 200m against mechs under ECM. That's the important range of ECM and it's 600m. The 90m range is just the range at which your team ALSO gets this advantage for 0t, 0 slots, 0 hardpoints.

[Foxwalker]

Sandpit, on 14 September 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

It sounds more like a new player asking for help and a bunch of salty aholes hijacking the thread and offering nothing in the way of tips and advice to me

I agree with this. AMS is only good if teamwork is involved (said in other posts) multiple AMS systems together can counter LRMs OK. But the best defense said by Torqemada is to make sure you are not far from cover.

I have said this before too. An AMS umbrella is a cocktail umbrella in a monsoon compared to a concentrated LRM assault.

[Lorcryst NySell]

ScrapIron Prime, on 14 September 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

If it's raining, an umbrella will help. If it's raining really freaking hard, an umbrella still helps, but you're still going to get wet.

Best way I've seen that particular piece of equipment explained, kudos.

Ok, now on to the actual topic ...

First, disclaimer : I'm not a top-notch player, I'm a lowly Tier 5 playing in PUGLandia SoloQ most of the time, yaddayadda.

That said, I always try to find the couple of tons needed for an AMS + ammo (on my hot builds) or a Laser AMS (new, shiny, but damn that thing generates heat like a dying sun!), at first it was because of Lore and Background reasons plus a bit of OCD telling me that I had to fill all the slots and hardpoints, then it became an habit, and now it's actually part of the strategy/tactic I have in mind when I select one of my 'Mechs ...

In actual game terms, an AMS can protect a single 'Mech from a single "medium-sized" LRM launcher and that's good, at least in my book. More than that and LRMs have no point anymore (at any level of play, I know that you see less and less LRMs the higher the Tiers go, but that's because the nature of the beast wants pinpoint damage delivered in the most efficient way possible at those levels), less than that an AMS is a waste of tonnage/slots.

But the key is ... TEAM WORK. With AMSes, one is basically useless when you have several LRM 'Mechs firing several launchers. Now, get 3-5 'Mechs with a single AMS each close to each other, and the umbrella starts to work. And that's not even talking about some 'Mechs that have mutlitple AMS hardpoints or bonuses to them.

Alas, AMS are not the ultimate protection against missiles. The game itself tells you so in some of the "gameplay tips" displayed during loading screens ... they are a tool, to be used as a last line of defense, but things like never getting targetted in the first place, hugging terrain, slipping behind hills/walls etc are, and I think always will be, better than an AMS.

I'll still try to work one on most of my builds though. Even if it's not spectacular, those few missiles knocked out of the rain do make a difference on the duration of a match.

Edited by Lorcryst NySell, 14 September 2017 - 01:48 PM.

[Prototelis]

Protip:

Always vote against polar lrmlands.