62 replies to this topic

[Trenchbird]

To be honest, the SNV-A is probably the only Clan Assault I don't actually mind being an LRM-80 boat. It's the only one that can do exactly LRM spam, and precious little else, well. It avoids the problems I see with other Clan LRM boats;

The Scorch LRM-80 may "work", but the chassis' stats overall lend it to be better at brawling or medium range fighting, as opposed to LRM spam.

The Spirit Bear can't run LRM80, and neither can the Warhawk; And both can perform better in medium range and short range brawler builds than LRM builds, due to either quirks or other statistics. In the Spirit Bear's case, it's speed, and in the Warhawk's case, it runs much better with energy weapons (Not that the quad LRM-15 Warhawk's awful, it's just not as good as a more 'traditional' build.)

The combination of mediocre stats means that the SNV-A's not that good at anything else, so LRM-80ing it is something I can understand for once. I'd probably run that if I ever bought an SNV-A.

Edited by Catten Hart, 17 September 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Im doing heck better in Warhawk with 4xLRM15 than 4xLRM15A Supernova, both having 4 med pulse along. I don't know why, I really can't see how the slight speed advantage of Warhawk can be so big thing. LRM supernova is not bad though.

[Trenchbird]

I mean, depends on where you fight. The Supernova suffers from it being extremely obvious where the STs are, even more so with missiles.

Edited by Catten Hart, 17 September 2017 - 12:24 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Catten Hart, on 17 September 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

I mean, depends on where you fight. The Supernova suffers from it being extremely obvious where the STs are, even more so with missiles.

Actually haven't really ran into this problem much as it spread damage like a champ. I really do consider the Supernova to be one of the more "Tanky" Clan Assaults.

[Trenchbird]

Huh. bit surprised by that. I always found it incredibly easy to isolate and destroy SNV-A STs, but eh, mileage varies I guess.

[Fleeb the Mad]

I'd also have to say that the supernova isn't really best used as a brawler, though it's serviceable. The Boiler works about as well as the Scorch does with very similar loadouts, though I wouldn't generalize the entire chassis by its hero variant. The Boiler has a few advantages such as lower arm actuators giving its big guns better firing arcs and, since the desync, better turning than the Mad IIC. I'd argue that it's actually superior in close since it can track and turn with faster mechs much more easily.

Overall though with its low engine cap it's really a payload mech. I find that it doesn't get close easily enough to get adequate use out of SRMs on the SNV-A. It's probably better off with ATMs at mid to short range since it has the tonnage to spare. I've been most successful with it at mid range with the exception of the 4x ER PPC build. The all-energy builds like the SNV-1 tend to be too hot to really brawl, however they're extremely effective in the 300-500m band with pulse lasers.

[Brain Cancer]

Teer Kerensky, on 17 September 2017 - 12:03 AM, said:

Im doing heck better in Warhawk with 4xLRM15 than 4xLRM15A Supernova, both having 4 med pulse along. I don't know why, I really can't see how the slight speed advantage of Warhawk can be so big thing. LRM supernova is not bad though.

You also get a slight velocity bump, but yeah. Better positioning speed, slight accuracy upgrade, and a less bulky chassis overall. Supernovas do benefit from more flexible endo/ferro/engine choices, of course.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 17 September 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[Lykaon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 September 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

Because you could actually brawl with them, in fact they outshined SRMs. They were heat efficient for the damage which made them perfect for it. Yes, cMPLs allow you to engage at longer range, but that is IRRELEVANT about discussing its brawling capability.

Comparativley even now the small pulse is effective at very close ranges it's just not the most effective by leaps and bounds.

If you want relevant then here you have it.

Range is relevant because last time I checked we were not dropped off a drop ship within 300m of the enemy. The capacity to engage and deal damage at greater ranges adds flexability to the weapon's performance and allows you to something,anything but nothing at extreme ranges of 560ish meters with clan medium pulse lasers.

Let's try a comparative between another mainstay brawler weapon the SRM.

Clan medium pulse does 7 damage at 330m and half that out to 561m (without range nodes applied)

Clan SRM4 does up to 8 damage at 270m hard cap (without range nodes)

The heat cost per shot is 3 for the SRM4 and 4.75 for the medium pulse

Both weapons cool down in 3 seconds.

Weight is 2 tons for the medium pulse and 2 tons for the SRM4 and 1 ton ammo

Crit cost is 1 for the medium pulse and 2 for the SRM4 and ammo

Medium pulse lasers do not have an ammo dependency and as such lend themselves to be used more liberally for suppression fire and probing shots and other higher risk attacks that may or may not connect.

No ammo for the medium pulse also means no ammo explosions possible. a minor advantage but one none the less.

SRMs are vulnerale to AMS lasers are not.

Clan mechs in general have more access to energy hardpoints then missile hardpoints. It's easier to find a chassis in any weight class that can "boat" energy. As such the laser is a more accessable option.


Also in closing if the counter argument for medium pulse lasers is they are not the old prenerf small pulse then I wonder relevants. I mean we can't use the prenerf small pulse now so what is good now?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lykaon, on 17 September 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Range is relevant because last time I checked we were not dropped off a drop ship within 300m of the enemy.

The discussion is about brawling, bringing up capability of hitting something outside of brawling range is once again, IRRELEVANT.

Lykaon, on 17 September 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Comparativley even now the small pulse is effective at very close ranges it's just not the most effective by leaps and bounds.

No, it isn't worth the tonnage compared to SRMs anymore, it lost heat-damage efficiency, upfront damage, AND DPS all in one fell swoop, it just isn't worth it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 September 2017 - 06:52 PM.

[Lykaon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 September 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

The discussion is about brawling, bringing up capability of hitting something outside of brawling range is once again, IRRELEVANT.


No, it isn't worth the tonnage compared to SRMs anymore, it lost heat-damage efficiency, upfront damage, AND DPS all in one fell swoop, it just isn't worth it.

So non contribution in a match in not relevant? If the medium pulse can be effective within brawling range as well as outside how is that not relevant to the performance of a weapon? The simple fact is with more oppertunity to deal damage you will deal more damage. A mech you have already weakened outside it's optimal range that you later engage in close quarters is a fight stacked in your favor and that is VERY revelant.

Again if the dropships plopped us down 300m apart I may agree with you but this is not the case.


Opinions and techniques apart the clan medium pulse laser is a brawling weapon. I prefer them as supplimental weapons but I do have one build that is based upon the medium pulse and it does perform well.

There are a number of advantages the medium pulse has over SRMs one is not heat to DPS but,the ratio isn't so far off as to discount the advantages presented by the pulse laser.

There is corrective fire. You can adjust aim after the shot is fired.

Range as I mentioned

No ammo dependency. You will not "waste" shots with unlimited ammo. If you are not risking a heat burden then there is no downside to high risk shots. You will not run out of ammo. Couple this with the range advantage and again we have a weapon system that grants more oppertunity to deal damage. It's simply more flexable than a weapon system that requires sub 270m range with an ideal range (to reduce spread) of 100m or so.

Improved pinpoint accuracy at ANY range the weapon is effective at. Even an Artemis SRM launcher can not match the pinpoint strike of pulse lasers.If your aim is sufficent you can hold the pulses on target to apply 100% of you damage to a single spot you would need to be very close to the target to accomplish a similar effect with an Artemis SRM launcher.. SRMs are limited by their spread and adding artemis further moves the weight and crit efficency in favor of the pulse Laser.


Also,the original topic was about supernovas and brawling and since most varients do not have missiles and only one varient has more than 3 missile hardpoints I though that maybe the medium pulse laser was worth looking into as a weapon option.

I get that you want to be unrefutably correct but you're using a narrowed criteria to meet your argument parameters.

But the truth is a typical match does not afford you the oppertunity to get within optimal close quarters range without being under fire or having missed oppertunities to have fired. So range is relevant ammo expendature is relevant and longer ranged accuracy is relevant.

Many of the points I made for the medium pulse also applies to the small pulse and why it's still a viable option. Since it is a clan weapon we are discussing it bears mentioning the level of accesability to the weapon.

Clan mechs have more energy hardpoints in general therefore more accessability to energy weapons.

Edited by Lykaon, 18 September 2017 - 04:54 AM.

[Koniving]

I know this doesn't really contribute, but...

Has anyone else noticed that the Super Nova's animations are pretty bad and weightless?
I mean we cry about the Uller and Mad Cat Mark II animations, but since like...very few people even bought Super Novas since they don't bring anything to the table due to how vast our customization is... I think people just haven't really looked at a Super Nova walk.

....but seriously... The way it walks it must be light as a feather.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lykaon, on 18 September 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

So non contribution in a match in not relevant?

Why are you being thick? No, it isn't relevant. The guy asked for a brawling Supernova, aka one that can brawl well. cMPLs aren't anywhere near efficient to brawl well with compared to actual brawling weapons, that's my whole point. They are great short range poke weapons and suggesting that the Supernova is better used in that role, that's fine, but suggesting it as a brawl build because it can shoot outside of brawl range......just no.

[Lykaon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 September 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

Why are you being thick? No, it isn't relevant. The guy asked for a brawling Supernova, aka one that can brawl well. cMPLs aren't anywhere near efficient to brawl well with compared to actual brawling weapons, that's my whole point. They are great short range poke weapons and suggesting that the Supernova is better used in that role, that's fine, but suggesting it as a brawl build because it can shoot outside of brawl range......just no.

Insults, because I disagree I must be thick?

So Supernovas huh?

How many of those are ALL ENERGY?

SNV-1
SNV-3
SNV-B
SNV-C

How many are not? it's two just two of the 6 varients available and one being a for cash Hero.

SNV-A has 4 missile hardpoints the rest is energy (and this mech is frequently used with LRMs/ATMs)
Boiler hero mech that cost cash has ballistics missiles and energy.

So shall we agree that a mech thatin mostly all it's varients uses ONLY ENERGY weapons we should be looking at ENERGY WEAPONS.

So do we think ER- PPCs are good for brawling?
ER- LRG lasers maybe?

one would be thick to think that these are optimal energy brawler weapons.

So we can elliminate those from the list.

ER-Small lasers are problematic because they lack reach and the Supernova is not quick enough to make optimal use.So I feel we can also elliminate the ER Small lasers as the primary weapon of choice.

The ER Micro and Micro pulse as well as the Small Pulse are all also off the list because again to short on range to be reliable on a slow mech.


So for Energy weapons we are basically left with ER Mediums (arguments can be made to support these) Large pulse and Medium Pulse. Of the two pulse lasers I feel the Medium pulse is a better choice for higher ghost heat number and capacity to break the weapons into smaller groups for better heat managment.

Remember we are discussing a SUPERNOVA brawler that has most of it's varients with ONLY ENERGY weapons.

Do you grasp the relevants now ? I could try drawing pictures for you with some robots making pew pew sounds if this doesn't sink in.

Edited by Lykaon, 18 September 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lykaon, on 18 September 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Insults, because I disagree I must be thick?

So Supernovas huh?

How many of those are ALL ENERGY?

SNV-1
SNV-3
SNV-B
SNV-C

How many are not? it's two just two of the 6 varients available and one being a for cash Hero.

SNV-A has 4 missile hardpoints the rest is energy (and this mech is frequently used with LRMs/ATMs)
Boiler hero mech that cost cash has ballistics missiles and energy.

So shall we agree that a mech thatin mostly all it's varients uses ONLY ENERGY weapons we should be looking at ENERGY WEAPONS.

So do we think ER- PPCs are good for brawling?
ER- LRG lasers maybe?

one would be thick to think that these are optimal energy brawler weapons.

So we can elliminate those from the list.

ER-Small lasers are problematic because they lack reach and the Supernova is not quick enough to make optimal use.So I feel we can also elliminate the ER Small lasers as the primary weapon of choice.

The ER Micro and Micro pulse as well as the Small Pulse are all also off the list because again to short on range to be reliable on a slow mech.


So for Energy weapons we are basically left with ER Mediums (arguments can be made to support these) Large pulse and Medium Pulse. Of the two pulse lasers I feel the Medium pulse is a better choice for higher ghost heat number and capacity to break the weapons into smaller groups for better heat managment.

Remember we are discussing a SUPERNOVA brawler that has most of it's varients with ONLY ENERGY weapons.

Do you grasp the relevants now ? I could try drawing pictures for you with some robots making pew pew sounds if this doesn't sink in.

Obviously you are thick because most people already POINTED that out, it doesn't have the hardpoints to do brawling very well like the MCII-2 and Scorch do. That doesn't mean you should construe cMPL/cERML boats as brawling mechs, it should simply be stated that it isn't built to do brawling (the SNV-A and SNV-BR are the closest to being able to do that).

That said, it wasn't too long ago that energy weapons were the best for brawling, so let's be careful throwing it out like energy weapons can never be superior brawling weapons (then hardpoint count comes into play however).

Of course then there is speed which with this mech's limitations really make it bad at brawling outside of potato smashing.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 September 2017 - 10:08 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lykaon, on 18 September 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

So for Energy weapons we are basically left with ER Mediums (arguments can be made to support these) Large pulse and Medium Pulse. Of the two pulse lasers I feel the Medium pulse is a better choice for higher ghost heat number and capacity to break the weapons into smaller groups for better heat managment.

Remember we are discussing a SUPERNOVA brawler that has most of it's varients with ONLY ENERGY weapons.

Do you grasp the relevants now ? I could try drawing pictures for you with some robots making pew pew sounds if this doesn't sink in.

I think the relevant point is that the all-energy Supernovas are better off not built as brawlers. Seems like that went right over your head though, as you try to shoehorn in a cMPL boat as a brawler. Nowadays brawlers typically have SRMs or for assaults, a mix of a large ballistic or 2 and SRMs. That's why the Scorch and the MCII-2 come up, because they can do 2 LB20s and 4 SRM6a. THOSE are brawl builds. cMPL boats are not brawlers.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 September 2017 - 11:42 AM.

[H Seldon]

I'd say the boiler is the only good brawler. You need to be able to hit hard and often when up close since speed and mobility are pretty slow. The other supernovas do run hot so a challenge to keep the damage going. A few months back I played for a month each a boiler in a brawler config, boiler in a range config and then the supernova-a in a range config. The range configs outperformed the brawler config. The brawler config was fun to play though. When it was in range, it hit hard, but wouldn't last long.

[Jackal Noble]

H Seldon, on 19 September 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

I'd say the boiler is the only good brawler. You need to be able to hit hard and often when up close since speed and mobility are pretty slow. The other supernovas do run hot so a challenge to keep the damage going. A few months back I played for a month each a boiler in a brawler config, boiler in a range config and then the supernova-a in a range config. The range configs outperformed the brawler config. The brawler config was fun to play though. When it was in range, it hit hard, but wouldn't last long.

basically this. Can whip up some devastating brawler builds, but they just don't have the durability to last.

[Gas Guzzler]

JackalBeast, on 19 September 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

but they just don't have the durability to last.

Wat?

Supernovas are very durable. The issue is they don't have the brawl payloads strong enough (MCII-2 and Scorch for instance).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 September 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

Wat?

Supernovas are very durable. The issue is they don't have the brawl payloads strong enough (MCII-2 and Scorch for instance).

I think he meant heat efficiency in this context, maybe.

[H Seldon]

They run warm also it's hard to spread damage to arms and legs. Except LRMs seem to target just the legs on the supernova. Lost quite a few legs from LRM fire... Weird. I have a little over 1100 matches in a supernova.