143 replies to this topic

[Prof RJ Gumby]

El Bandito, on 18 September 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

Nah, man. Headshot that managed to get through armor should crack that cockpit glass wide open and paint some blood stains in the cockpit too. Gotta make the player feel the urgency and desperation.

In singleplayer? Heck yeah. In pvp? Nope, you can't add up obscuring visuals that can be turned off (cockpit glass as a whole, and it has to be 'turnable' because frames) without widening the gap between competetivish players (including, but not limited to actual competitive players) who will turn off everything and make this game look horrible to get an edge, and people wanting o play a nicely looking game. MWO already has a bit of this problem, but it's not as bad as it could be (like in certain other game where you could entirely remove foliage that otherwise completely blocked line of sight.

[El Bandito]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 19 September 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

In singleplayer? Heck yeah. In pvp? Nope, you can't add up obscuring visuals that can be turned off (cockpit glass as a whole, and it has to be 'turnable' because frames) without widening the gap between competetivish players (including, but not limited to actual competitive players) who will turn off everything and make this game look horrible to get an edge, and people wanting o play a nicely looking game. MWO already has a bit of this problem, but it's not as bad as it could be (like in certain other game where you could entirely remove foliage that otherwise completely blocked line of sight.

Doesn't matter, since getting headshotted in non-comp games happens very very rarely. And as for comp queue, everyone can turn that off for all I care.

[Bishop Steiner]

o0m9, on 18 September 2017 - 11:46 PM, said:

The entire thread is about Star Citizen. Do you even read?

obviously not.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wil McCullough, on 19 September 2017 - 01:17 AM, said:

and bishop steiner's response to me was specifically about its $300 space ships.

do YOU even read?

i wrote something, he quoted and replied, i quoted and replied back etc. we're talking to each other, not making commentary on the entire star citizen. you're grasping at straws, really.

No, actually my point was so simple one would expect even you to get it. I suppose it's my fault for expecting you to be as smarter than a 5th grader.

Wil McCullough, on 18 September 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

there's nothing stopping pgi from doing a "general motors" type webpage to launch the upcoming hellspawn for example. other than giving a rat's arse.

they could even make a high value powerpoint or keynote "academy 101" that in lore would be used as a presentation to new pilots or something.

not hard, not time-consuming, not expensive. we need to stop giving pgi stupid excuses.

Is utter tripe. Hard? No. Time consuming, and expensive? For a single release not hugely. Each month, every month? Yes, actually it is. People already complain about cost of Mech Packs, yet doing this would increase costs per pack to produce, (sorry you don't understand simple things like resource management any better than you do marketing) without actually increasing value of the packs. Unless one decided to simply remove money and man hours from other aspects of the game like back end development, map designs, etc. You know the things people complain about not happening fast enough already?

But thank you for pointing out that I was holding the bar too high for you. In the future if I bother to address you I'll be sure to use lots of pictures and stuff so you wont get lost. My apologies for making the assumption you could keep up.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 September 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vellron2005, on 19 September 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

So.. I'm seeing a lot of people talking about how much more money RSI has over PGI..I guess that's reasonable.. more money = more / better stuff..

But my point, (and the entire point of this topic for that matter) is that if PGI had RSI's money, we would only get double the amount of mechs, but not double the amount of quality. And if RSI had PGI's money, we would get the same SC quality, but in less volume.

It's this difference in approach that I would like PGI to acknowledge and work on.

If you provide a quality product, people will beg you to sell it to them, and money will come. If you are content on just getting by with the minimal, you will never go big.

Case in point - MW5:Merc, currently in development.

Same engine as SC. And same possibilities. Alas, no mech customization.

Right off the bat, PGI elects to provide only the minimal. Instead of going all out, hyping the shait out of it, and actually providing us with a complete product that will be so awesome that it will make us beg our bank for a loan so we could buy it.

That's just bad business.

Also, people say, Mechwarrior / Battletech is a niche franchise. Sure. Keep thinking that.

And then remember that it's been around for 30-ish years, and people still love it. Also, it's currently going through a rebirth, as multiple games and new manuals are coming out.

So if you want to go from a niche to a global phenomenon, what do you do?

Advertise.

Marketing is key.

And a single picture and a headline on facebook (for those who already know about it and follow the page) or twitter does not cut it..

A 10-page, immersive, luxury quality brochure does.

If PGI approached development of ANYTHING in this game (or MW5 for that matter) with the attention that simple brochure has gotten, It would be a AAA game and it would have millions of dollars to invest.

And the point being made is that actually we don't know how PGI would spend the budget if the had RSi's funding because this game has never made 1/10th of what RSI did.

And without that budget...which was obtained thru insanely bloated ship costs where do they take the money from for your 10 page luxury brochures? Marketing is key. Wasteful marketing is not. Most players here would look at those and think "damn they could spend the time and money to do that... but we haven't had a new map in 6 months? WTF???".

Your premise is flawed. Could they do better marketing? Yes. But wasting thousands of dollars per mech pack on a brochure ain't where they need the marketing.

[Sjorpha]

I actually think PGI's marketing of the specific mechs is more than enough, nice concept art, preorder goodies and countdowns. Not really much to complain about there.

Where PGI's marketing fails is when it comes to marketing the game itself to a wider audience, there should be a few MWO trailers released each year and there should be tournaments and events with outwards hype trains bringing attention to the game.

Despite all the flaws in development I do think there are a lot of people out there that would like playing this game a bit, IF the knew it existed.

When it comes to Star Citizen I think it will be dissappointing in the exact opposite way No Mans sky was dissappointing. NMS was extremely large amounts of extremely low quality content.

I think Star Citizen will be the opposite, extremely high quality content but failure to deliver the galaxy scale with endless space to explore, my guess is it will be a few super well designed solar systems with more added at a slow slow pace. And I doubt there will be the kind of epicness that EVE online has in terms of players determining the politics and markets, fighting the wars and so on. Will there be huge epic space battles with hundreds of players and all classes of ships, fought in wars started and narrated by player politics?

I doubt it, that kind of scope and scale is going to be the true test of Star Citizen to deliver on.

Don't get me wrong, I really really hope they do! I want SC to be great!

But I'm not interested in doing some confined storyline or predesigned quests in a few solar systems, no matter how good they look and how cool my ship is. Nice graphics isn't much of a selling point to me, and what I've seen so far of SC is fancy graphics that look kinda glitchy and clunky with animations interrupting control from the player as you sit down in chairs and such just to sport some stupid mocap, and thats a big nono in my book.

I'll maybe buy it when it's released as a full universe to explore, if the price is reasonable and if there is a lot of freedom for players to shape the game. Not before then.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 19 September 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

I actually think PGI's marketing of the specific mechs is more than enough, nice concept art, preorder goodies and countdowns. Not really much to complain about there.

Where PGI's marketing fails is when it comes to marketing the game itself to a wider audience, there should be a few MWO trailers released each year and there should be tournaments and events with outwards hype trains bringing attention to the game.

Despite all the flaws in development I do think there are a lot of people out there that would like playing this game a bit, IF the knew it existed.

This.

You have to spend money to make money, yes. But you have to spend it in the right ways. Glossy Mech Brochures ain't going to cut it. Gaining wider audience awareness, via WoT style youtube commercials, etc? Casts a much wider net, and is a much more effective use of marketing budget.

[Thorn Hallis]

Uhm...PGI did create promotional videos and short stories for new hero 'Mechs back in the days. Dunno why they ceased to do it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Thorn Hallis, on 19 September 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

Uhm...PGI did create promotional videos and short stories for new hero 'Mechs back in the days. Dunno why they ceased to do it.

Resource budgeting. Both money and manpower. Obviously the returns were not commensurate to the resources it took to do them. Those commercials were cool. Would love to see them again, but don't know if they actually would do anything to boost sales as such, at least at this point.

[FireStoat]

G4LV4TR0N, on 18 September 2017 - 02:53 AM, said:

if they really on limited budget then it's better for them to work gameplay stuff than care about website design

I used to think this was the case too, but "we're giving you the ability to walk around in your mech bay and view your mech at any angle and different elevations" in the last stream 'town hall' left me scratching my head. Who in the hell cares for such a feature when maps are needed so badly?

[Bishop Steiner]

FireStoat, on 19 September 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

I used to think this was the case too, but "we're giving you the ability to walk around in your mech bay and view your mech at any angle and different elevations" in the last stream 'town hall' left me scratching my head. Who in the hell cares for such a feature when maps are needed so badly?

apparently a lot of people since they are always near the top of asked for features. Also I have a feeling we haven't seen a ton of maps because they are possibly doing them for MW5, and as such don't want to release them for the the Arena Shooter MWO until they've had a chance to debut. Mind you that is pure speculation on my part, but if I was shepherding limited resources, that is how I'd be approaching it... building resources to debut as new and shiny in MW5, then doling them out over time after, in MWO, both mechs and maps.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

but some folks love to put lipstick on their pigs......

Bombast, on 18 September 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

Hey. Don't judge what people do in the privacy of their own homes with sexy pigs.

I like to audition my pigs in death metal bands.

[Bishop Steiner]

Arnold The Governator, on 19 September 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

I like to audition my pigs in death metal bands.

Aren't pig squeals more a facet of DeathCore? (don't recall any of the DM bands I listen to using them...)

[Valdarion Silarius]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

Aren't pig squeals more a facet of DeathCore? (don't recall any of the DM bands I listen to using them...)

From Urban Dictionary:

"A vocal style originating in late 1980's involved with underground grindcore/Brutal Death Metal bands. The style is usually used by either inhaling or exhaling while coarsing your throat to either sound like a high pitched pig squeal, or a low pitched gurgle. Pig squeals have now become a style that is seen more in the light now due to hardcore/metalcore bands that have been recently becoming increasingly popular."

I guess you can throw pig squeals into the category of grindcore, but I normally refer it to just generic death metal. I don't really follow the hardcore stuff since I can't understand the lyrics. I'm more into industrial metal/alternative metal (Layne era Alice in Chains and Soundgarden) but I do like metalcore (War of Ages) and symphonic metal (Nightwish). You can thank classic DooM for getting me into metal.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 19 September 2017 - 10:18 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

apparently a lot of people since they are always near the top of asked for features. Also I have a feeling we haven't seen a ton of maps because they are possibly doing them for MW5, and as such don't want to release them for the the Arena Shooter MWO until they've had a chance to debut. Mind you that is pure speculation on my part, but if I was shepherding limited resources, that is how I'd be approaching it... building resources to debut as new and shiny in MW5, then doling them out over time after, in MWO, both mechs and maps.

or its only a handfull good handmade maps in Hope the "Random generated" Feature of the uE 4 Wonderengine bring the solution for this Problem and we fight most of white ,brown,green "one-Ground textures maps ,with a different little Tree&Hillset sets (and im Hope of random placed handmade basemodules?) thats looks like No mans Sky all very the same and sterile..and PGI must create a AI!!! or become it from HBS?and many Companys working with UE4 ,why a Skillfull Artist with UE4 experience working for PGI ? many Artists going back in the days from PGi to other companys like Relic...to many Questions ,we will seeing the Answers in the Release 2018 or first short views by mechcon 17

[Bishop Steiner]

Arnold The Governator, on 19 September 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

From Urban Dictionary:

"A vocal style originating in late 1980's involved with underground grindcore/Brutal Death Metal bands. The style is usually used by either inhaling or exhaling while coarsing your throat to either sound like a high pitched pig squeal, or a low pitched gurgle. Pig squeals have now become a style that is seen more in the light now due to hardcore/metalcore bands that have been recently becoming increasingly popular."

I guess you can throw pig squeals into the category of grindcore, but I normally refer it to just generic death metal. I don't really follow the hardcore stuff since I can't understand the lyrics. I'm more into industrial metal/alternative metal (Layne era Alice in Chains and Soundgarden) but I do like metalcore (War of Ages) and symphonic metal (Nightwish). You can thank classic DooM for getting me into metal.

Well, as a old school generic death metal guy, I'd say Urban Dictionary is..well, wrong.

Bolt Thrower, Unleashed, Death, etc. All used gutteral, low register growls, though chuck switched to a more raspy almost black metal style for the last couple of albums.

It's possible that Grindcore had some acts that started the pig squeals, though I sure don't recall hearing any until stuff like Job For a Cowboy or Suicide Silence (two bands that I generally think are overrated as heck). Don't recall much if any from Despised Icon ...but it's been a while since I listened to any DeathCore (cuz it gets boring real fast). But actual Grindcore bands... I can't think of one, though I admit to not listening to every band... but Carcass, Napalm Death, Terrorizer, neever did.

Maybe bands like Pig Destroyer... or the CoreGrind, PornoGrind or other "extreme to shock people not because it's actually good" bands.

But as a pretty big fan of Traditional DM, Blackened Death, Folk Death, MeloDeath, Prog Death, Tech Death, etc.... never heard it used in actual DM.

(I tend to listen to traditional "Heavy" Metal, Power, Sypmhonic, Thrash, Death, Black, Prog, Folk and the various fusions thereof primarily though)

Old MW4 Ranger, on 19 September 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

or its only a handfull good handmade maps in Hope the "Random generated" Feature of the uE 4 Wonderengine bring the solution for this Problem and we fight most of white ,brown,green "one-Ground textures maps ,with a different little Tree&Hillset sets (and im Hope of random placed handmade basemodules?) thats looks like No mans Sky all very the same and sterile..and PGI must create a AI!!! or become it from HBS?and many Companys working with UE4 ,why a Skillfull Artist with UE4 experience working for PGI ? many Artists going back in the days from PGi to other companys like Relic...to many Questions ,we will seeing the Answers in the Release 2018 or first short views by mechcon 17

Yes we will hopefully get answers then.

Instead of inventing them now.

[Ruar]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

apparently a lot of people since they are always near the top of asked for features. Also I have a feeling we haven't seen a ton of maps because they are possibly doing them for MW5, and as such don't want to release them for the the Arena Shooter MWO until they've had a chance to debut. Mind you that is pure speculation on my part, but if I was shepherding limited resources, that is how I'd be approaching it... building resources to debut as new and shiny in MW5, then doling them out over time after, in MWO, both mechs and maps.

A lot of people is pretty subjective to your own confirmation bias. I see way more requests for maps than I ever have for standing in the mechbay. In fact, I've never seen a thread about mech bay views, but I don't read a lot of the suggestion board since PGI doesn't communicate.

As for maps and MW5... wouldn't the fact the maps are being made for a different game engine mean they can't be ported over to MWO? I assume they could do similar design features but each map would have to be uniquely created in each game due to coding.

MWO would have been better off focusing on maps over other things like the skill tree. Hiring map makers and reducing other coders would have retained a higher population of players.

Although, there is an argument that since most of the players have left the game because of things like lack of map making then PGI focusing on silly additions that please a portion of the remaining population makes sense.

[Wil McCullough]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2017 - 06:19 AM, said:

No, actually my point was so simple one would expect even you to get it. I suppose it's my fault for expecting you to be as smarter than a 5th grader.




Is utter tripe. Hard? No. Time consuming, and expensive? For a single release not hugely. Each month, every month? Yes, actually it is. People already complain about cost of Mech Packs, yet doing this would increase costs per pack to produce, (sorry you don't understand simple things like resource management any better than you do marketing) without actually increasing value of the packs. Unless one decided to simply remove money and man hours from other aspects of the game like back end development, map designs, etc. You know the things people complain about not happening fast enough already?

But thank you for pointing out that I was holding the bar too high for you. In the future if I bother to address you I'll be sure to use lots of pictures and stuff so you wont get lost. My apologies for making the assumption you could keep up.

For all your waffling, you don't seem to have the faintest idea of how much time and effort something like this takes.

Just so the rest of the guys in the marketing/advertising industry can laugh at your posturing, how much time, money and effort do YOU think goes into a brochure/website gimmick like this? Here's a helpful hint for you (apparently because you're still at alphabet block reading level): someone else in the industry already posted in this thread about the amount of work it takes. Double hint: it's not much at all.

You seem to have no idea how much it takes to produce a video (a lot), and how much it takes to produce a website and written content (not much). Most of the content is 2d art and adapted copy. Are you saying it's too much effort for a PGI "resource" to walk up to alex to ask for screenshots or existing concept art, too much "resources" will be consumed by alex emailing some pics over?

No time even to do a website? Do an immersive EDM. Think fallout posters. Experiment with layout so consumers can use the art as comp wallpaper. It's not effing rocket science. No one's asking you to go literally produce a "glossy brochure" you strawman hugging buffoon.

Rofl. Stop grasping at straws and deploying "weh weh resource management" smokescreens. You sound like a middle management guy who doesn't yet realize that's the highest he can go.

Some of us are working in marketing and advertising. We know how things work on this end. You've been decidedly salty this entire week on the forum. I suggest you crawl back to whatever problem you're running away from IRL, deal like an adult and stop trying to assert your voice on something you don't have the faintest idea about.

[Jun Watarase]

Do we even know for sure if PGI has a marketing department? I mean, we have seen no evidence of it. They certaintly don't do any customer surveys, focus groups, or anything to do with marketing research to find out what their customers want (read : not mech packs).

[Vellron2005]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2017 - 06:26 AM, said:

Your premise is flawed. Could they do better marketing? Yes. But wasting thousands of dollars per mech pack on a brochure ain't where they need the marketing.

OH WOW... OK.. so you got something seriously wrong..

A brochure like that doesn't cost thousands of dollars. Not even by a longshot..

Once you have something to put in a brochure (like the finished model of a ship, with textures and stuff), to make one, it takes the computer you designed the ship on and some electricity to power it, to create a render, and screenshot it from a few sides.

So basically nothing you don't already have in your dev office to begin with.

After you have the images, all it takes to do such a brochure is about 1-2 work days of a designer's time, and a program like Corel or Adobe InDesign, and maaaybe some Photoshop (depending on render quality).

Even if you don't already have either of those programs (and you should, you're a bloody dev studio), they don't cost thousands of dollars.

Nor do the designer's man hours, cose' you pay the designer on a per-month in-house salary basis. So it's all done in a designer's day of work.

Stop deluding yourself into thinking that stuff like that is costly. It's really not. Any self-respecting in-house designer can do it as a breeze, just to keep things interesting..

PGI has us believing that lifting a designer's finger costs a fortune. It does not.

All you need to have for a good developer is a powefull rig to work with and a designer that knows what he/she is doing.

Once you have your basic necessities, all the money being spent on any development is going to paying the developer's bills and food.

To saaay, make a map.. they don't need to go out and buy land. They need to sit in front of a computer and work, and eat something for lunch. Maaaybe buying some stock images (few hundred dollars at the most, and many are free)

Sure, if a dev has a big ego and wants to drive a ferrari, then yeah, it will take more money.

But if you are trying to sell something that will make you rich, you need to sit down and do it properly.. can't just be thinking about the ferrari, without earning one.

My point is - no it doesn't take thousands of dollars to make a brochure. I know, cose' I make them for a living.. and I'm not even rich enough to buy a mech pack. ;-)

P.S.

The biggest reinforcement of this opinion is a simple truth.. go to a site like Artstation, Elfwood, or other designer sites.. you will see thousands of materials, images, concept designs and such, of people who just had some spare time, sat down in front of a computer, and did it for fun. And most of them will make your jaw drop. Don't even get me started on the possibility of community-made maps ;-)

Edited by Vellron2005, 20 September 2017 - 01:25 AM.