193 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Dollar Bill, on 23 September 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

Should I say it again about Skill Maze having NOTHING to do with no longer needing 3 mechs, and PGI being able to do that anytime over the past 5 years? Oops, just said it again.

though this may be true in some ways its false in others,
the (Rule of 3) as an Experience sink used to extend how you Skilled up your Mech in the (Old Skill Tree)
so in a way the (Rule of 3) does have very much have to with the (Old Skill Tree)

that said since the (Rule of 3) stipulation only Existed because of the (Old Skill Tree)
its not that much of a Jump to say that cost doesnt exist with the (New Skill Tree) because they are linked,

i think this is what people are saying and why they are linked,


that said i do like the new Skill tree,
i feel it adds alot to MWO, and i dont see it as a problem with how its structured,
after skilling up a couple mechs, and figuring how to skill them to suit my needs it got much better,
as i now knew how i could skill my mechs to get them to proform how i wanted them too,
something the old system didnt offer, a way to personalize your mechs to your liking,

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 September 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

that said i do like the new Skill tree,
i feel it adds alot to MWO, and i dont see it as a problem with how its structured,
after skilling up a couple mechs, and figuring how to skill them to suit my needs it got much better,
as i now knew how i could skill my mechs to get them to proform how i wanted them too,
something the old system didnt offer, a way to personalize your mechs to your liking,

with modules i could use a ballistics cooldown 5 module paired with a LL cooldown module 3 to generate less laser heat something the new system doesnt offer and less to my liking.

i think maybe weapon types should be separated in the tree

[Eirik Eriksson]

I like the tree but in comb with civil war tech this was a poor combo. For players that has been here for a while but doesn't get on very frequently anymore and have a preference for IS, the missing cbill return from old modules just forces me to go for the easy way and update my clan mechs first whatever I like it or not. From there it will be a long road ahead to get the IS mechs updated with the new tech. maybe within a year or so?

[Bigbacon]

skill tree is pretty much just as static as the modules were. You just end up using the same things over and over and over. Most of my mech trees are pretty much exactly the same.

Modules I used per mech were almost exactly the same except a difference in weapon.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bigbacon, on 23 September 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

skill tree is pretty much just as static as the modules were. You just end up using the same things over and over and over. Most of my mech trees are pretty much exactly the same.

Modules I used per mech were almost exactly the same except a difference in weapon.

If you're not tailoring the skill tree to the mech's strengths/weaknesses, that's purely on you. The fact is, the skill tree offers the opportunity to do so now (whether you use it to that advantage or not), whereas the old system did not.

[Bigbacon]

Lukoi Banacek, on 23 September 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

If you're not tailoring the skill tree to the mech's strengths/weaknesses, that's purely on you. The fact is, the skill tree offers the opportunity to do so now (whether you use it to that advantage or not), whereas the old system did not.

still end up with pretty much 3 or 4 load outs. there really isn't much tailoring going on.

[FupDup]

Lukoi Banacek, on 23 September 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

If you're not tailoring the skill tree to the mech's strengths/weaknesses, that's purely on you. The fact is, the skill tree offers the opportunity to do so now (whether you use it to that advantage or not), whereas the old system did not.

Well...

Every mech in the game wants to use about 32/35 survival because this is a game of attrition. Getting shot is inevitable, so it's in your best interests to increase the number of times you can get shot before being disabled.

The majority of mechs need heat gen, because almost everything in this game runs toasty hot. There are a few rare exceptions.

Cool run and heat containment are recommended for particularly high heat builds but can be skipped if your gundam is only moderately hot instead of super hot.

If you're using a laser-based mech you need laser duration.

If you're using projectile weapons, particularly PPCs, you'll probably need more velocity.

If you're using ECM you need the ECM boosting nodes.

If you're going full tryhard you need the aux tree (like 10 nodes or so) for spamming those annoying consumables.


That's pretty much everything, really.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bigbacon, on 23 September 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

still end up with pretty much 3 or 4 load outs. there really isn't much tailoring going on.

For you, maybe not

I use different stuff based on the roles of the mechs, strengths/weaknesses, scouting vs competitive vs quickplay and have the mechs set up specifically to get every bit out of them that I can. Even have a couple specifically for non-strike matches that sometimes occur in NBT.

So again, if you're not tailoring, that's on you. The distinction is that now people have the option, whereas before they didn't even have that.

[Burke IV]

What is the point of it anyway? Was it designed primarily to make the game better or is it supposed to extract money from players? I cant help thinking that it fails on both. The old rule of 3 was equally as pointless both systems will lead to players dropping in unelited or less than optimal mechs which then impacts on all their team, leading players to the forums to complain about rolls.

Edited by Burke IV, 23 September 2017 - 04:01 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

FupDup, on 23 September 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Well...

Every mech in the game wants to use about 32/35 survival because this is a game of attrition. Getting shot is inevitable, so it's in your best interests to increase the number of times you can get shot before being disabled.

The majority of mechs need heat gen, because almost everything in this game runs toasty hot. There are a few rare exceptions.

Cool run and heat containment are recommended for particularly high heat builds but can be skipped if your gundam is only moderately hot instead of super hot.

If you're using a laser-based mech you need laser duration.

If you're using projectile weapons, particularly PPCs, you'll probably need more velocity.

If you're using ECM you need the ECM boosting nodes.

If you're going full tryhard you need the aux tree (like 10 nodes or so) for spamming those annoying consumables.


That's pretty much everything, really.

I'm not even going to get into how bad a couple of these suggestions are because that's not really the point of this thread. Suffice to say, the combination of the above in different mechs of different tonnages, roles, mobility profiles etc all mean that there are quite a few more than 3-4 combinations inherently, even assuming that you anchor every design in 32 survivability (and I do myself in all but a few cases).

And that's at LEAST 4 more than you ever had previously under the old system.

Point is....4+ are better than 1 when it comes to options and letting people tailor their fun. And frankly, it's alot more than 4+ variations.

[Bigbacon]

sorry. BS....skill tree is just as generic as the modules were.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bigbacon, on 23 September 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

sorry. BS....skill tree is just as generic as the modules were.

Sorry, opinions vary.

You've got your opinion, I've got mine.

[MischiefSC]

Gorantir, on 23 September 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

with modules i could use a ballistics cooldown 5 module paired with a LL cooldown module 3 to generate less laser heat something the new system doesnt offer and less to my liking.

i think maybe weapon types should be separated in the tree

Except you can, as cooldown covers all weapons. In fact you can get the cooldown nodes, reduce laser burn duration and increase ballistic velocity all from the same tree! Isn't that amazing? You can also just focus on getting what you had before - just do cooldown nodes, mobility and operations. You'll get some range and heat gen with it! Amazing, right? Except with the skill tree you can make a better setup than you had before. Heat gen for weapons, more ammo, uac jam chance, plus additional structure and armor buffs instead of all mobility stuff. Mix and match. Increase your consumable slots, drop an extra arty/air/uav.

Cooldown was going to get nerfed. Total cooldown between old skill tree and modules was too strong. However the new tree lets you get back everything you had before, or better, with more granular control.

Lucky you!

[JC Daxion]

Appogee, on 23 September 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

I've clicked (conservative estimate) more than 18,000 of those bloody Skill Nodes by now.

How ridiculous that we still can't cut/paste existing trees onto new Mechs.

If anyone at PGI played their game and had to grind their own Mechs, they'd realise by now what a PITA it is.

Well i don't agree about the whole cut and past thing.. I do think they need to add some templates. I'd love to see a few PGI default templates. (community can help with this) to make it easier for new players.. Then perhaps let the players create their own templates to use. I dunno how many we should have. If they are stored player side, then it could be unlimited.

Basically, you click on the template, and it would highlight all the boxes in that build. Players leveling could just follow the tree, or if the players have enough skill points they could just click the "activate button" and it would all activate.

Still just adding a activate full tree, or drag to unlock would be kinda cool, though i am not sure how it would work for XP types on reactivation. (maybe it would go off of the last box you click? Or maybe the first?

[Sjorpha]

The skill tree is better than modules in the sense that once you've done it it's done, you don't have to search for modules and move them around.

I also think the fact that not every upgraded mech has mandatory seismic and radar deprivation is a huge improvement for gameplay.

Is it well designed? Lolno it could have been so much better and intersting with individual trees for different mechs and so on, but I'll still take it over modules any day.

The fact that PGI gave me 15 000 GSP might be a factor, I'll never have to grind out a mech ever again lol.

Edited by Sjorpha, 23 September 2017 - 07:01 PM.

[Shinskii]

Dollar Bill, on 23 September 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

Once again, and again, and again, and for those who have trouble reading facts and just see what they want to see. THE SKILL MAZE AS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE END OF THE 'RULE OF THREE'! There, did you see it that time?

PGI could have ended the 3 mech requirement at any time in the past. But PGI did it with the release of the Nerf Tree, because PGI thinks we are stupid enough to think the Skill Web was to thank for it. I mean, does PGI really think we are so dumb as to fall for a trick like tha...oh...wait.

The Skill Tree could have been something most everyone would have liked, if PGI had just lessened to Saloma (or whatever his name was) who tried to help by making a far more logical, and cleaner, linear Skill Tree. Instead of the gated, granular, arbitrary web of frustration PGI dumped out.

And, people keep going on and on about how much they can 'customize' their mech...it's just an illusion, sheeple! It just looks good on paper. So please stop fooling yourselves, or using it to make your dis-honest arguments in favor of the Skill Maze. A little 1% bump here, and .75% tweak there mean nothing where it really counts...on the battlefield.

OP didn't mention skill web, I simply disagreed with his idea that we should return to the old system and stated my feedback that it's end was among the things that helped me enjoy this game again. I had never mentioned the skill web in my post, neither did the OP. There were no "facts" to miss, only opinions.

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

Except you can, as cooldown covers all weapons. In fact you can get the cooldown nodes, reduce laser burn duration and increase ballistic velocity all from the same tree! Isn't that amazing? You can also just focus on getting what you had before - just do cooldown nodes, mobility and operations. You'll get some range and heat gen with it! Amazing, right? Except with the skill tree you can make a better setup than you had before. Heat gen for weapons, more ammo, uac jam chance, plus additional structure and armor buffs instead of all mobility stuff. Mix and match. Increase your consumable slots, drop an extra arty/air/uav.

Cooldown was going to get nerfed. Total cooldown between old skill tree and modules was too strong. However the new tree lets you get back everything you had before, or better, with more granular control.

Lucky you!

the point was that both weapon types had different cooldown values , not the same. unlucky me. Im not saying the old system was better Im saying the new system could be better...

[adamts01]

vandalhooch, on 23 September 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

In other words, you couldn't actually come up with an example of a game with free respecs. You opted instead to respond with a red herring.

In response to his. But really, every other game lets you put down one rifle or set of gear and grab another. That should especially be the case in MWO, where tinkering with mechs is half the fun of the game. It's silly enough having to pay for light ferry and ferro over and over again when I feel like switching a mech from ACs to Gauss, and now I have to spend GXP or c-bills to move talents around. I can see why so many players left because of the change. I hated the old skill trees too, but customisation was much cheaper and easier, and that's what this whole game is about.

[Dollar Bill]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 September 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

though this may be true in some ways its false in others,
the (Rule of 3) as an Experience sink used to extend how you Skilled up your Mech in the (Old Skill Tree)
so in a way the (Rule of 3) does have very much have to with the (Old Skill Tree)

that said since the (Rule of 3) stipulation only Existed because of the (Old Skill Tree)
its not that much of a Jump to say that cost doesnt exist with the (New Skill Tree) because they are linked,

i think this is what people are saying and why they are linked,


that said i do like the new Skill tree,
i feel it adds alot to MWO, and i dont see it as a problem with how its structured,
after skilling up a couple mechs, and figuring how to skill them to suit my needs it got much better,
as i now knew how i could skill my mechs to get them to proform how i wanted them too,
something the old system didnt offer, a way to personalize your mechs to your liking,

Really dude? Ever heard of the saying "trying to put lipstick on a pig?" Wow that was some far reaching there Tex, but it still falls short. That's up there with "here's why 2+2=5".

PGI could have still done away with "Rule of 3" under the old tree and then change the XP needed for leveling your mech, if needed. So, the Skill Maze, new or old (oh and by the way, nice smoke and mirrors attempt) still has nothing to do with ending the "Rule of 3."

People are saying what they mean. And they say they like the Skill Maze because they think because of it, they are able to buy just the mech they want and not 3 because of the Skill Maze, which is false and you know it.

<quote> "that said since the (Rule of 3) stipulation only Existed because of the (Old Skill Tree)"
Again, really dude? Maybe it existed because it was a way for PGI to make more money. You don't really know, so your argument is built on pure speculation, right?

As far as the Skill Maze "adding a lot to MWO." While there are a few more options to chose from, once again, does 1% here and .75% there make any real difference where it counts...on the battlefield? No, it does not. Only make a difference in peoples heads. And because of the granular gated non-linear structure of the Skill Web, and PGI arbitrarily restricting the node count to 91, you really can't take advantage of any pluses the Nerf Tree has to offer where it really counts...on the battlefield.

Some people may like playing "Spreadsheet Warrior Online," and get lots of stuff to chose from that don't really add up to much, and is just really a hidden blanket nerf in the end (because even if you burned SP on one node type for the max % boost most of them still can't equal the module it replaced). But not me.

[Andi Nagasia]

Dollar Bill, on 23 September 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

Really dude? Ever heard of the saying "trying to put lipstick on a pig?" Wow that was some far reaching there Tex, but it still falls short. That's up there with "here's why 2+2=5".

PGI could have still done away with "Rule of 3" under the old tree and then change the XP needed for leveling your mech, if needed. So, the Skill Maze, new or old (oh and by the way, nice smoke and mirrors attempt) still has nothing to do with ending the "Rule of 3."

People are saying what they mean. And they say they like the Skill Maze because they think because of it, they are able to buy just the mech they want and not 3 because of the Skill Maze, which is false and you know it.

<quote> "that said since the (Rule of 3) stipulation only Existed because of the (Old Skill Tree)"
Again, really dude? Maybe it existed because it was a way for PGI to make more money. You don't really know, so your argument is built on pure speculation, right?

im sorry but saying thing repeatedly doesnt make them true,
the (Rule of 3) only existed in MWO because of the (Old Skill Tree) this is a fact,
no where else in all of MWO did the (Rule of 3) matter at all,

whether of not (Rule of 3) could have been removed from the (Old Skill Tree) is irrelevant,
the fact is that the (Rule of 3) was a part of the (Old Skill Tree) regardless of ether of Our Opinions,
as such when the (New Skill Tree) cast out the (Old Skill Tree), it also got rid of the (Rule of 3)

this is how MWO was, and id rather not have (Old Skill Tree) & (Rule of 3) back, thanks

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 23 September 2017 - 08:35 PM.