128 replies to this topic

[Luminis]

In hindsight, it just feels like a mistake to me.

I get why the PPC / Gauss combo was nerfed, don't get me wrong. But here we are, with Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit being the meta defining builds. My impression is that the old fashioned PPC / Gauss builds couldn't possibly kill or cripple 'Mechs any faster than the current Gauss / Laser Vomit builds can. They might be able to compete with Gauss / Laser Vomit builds, though, not least of all because of the much shorter facetime they require.

In other words, 50 points of pinpoint damage (plus ten splash damage) don't seem nearly as OP now that we've got some builds pushing 78 damage alphas with pure Laser builds or even 80+ with Gauss Vomit.

Most importantly, though, I'd argue that hitting the IS Gausses and PPCs was a huge mistake. A seriously, seriously big mistake. Would've gone a long way in the "equal but different" approach if the IS retained the Gauss / PPC combo. Fits with the "shorter burn time / less splash" motif as well. With that weapon combo in place for the IS only, the Nightstar might actually prove to be a huge bump in overall power for the IS. Dunno whether 2x Gauss + 2 Heavy PPC is feasible, but even ERPPCs or regular PPCs would do, I guess.

And here's the poll.

So, tl;dr:
PGI, plz unlink Gauss / PPC at least for the IS to improve balance, kthxbye.

/edit:
On a side note, revoking it on the Clan side also means the Deathstrike isn't the uncontested best variant of the Mad Cat Mk II anymore.

Edited by Luminis, 21 September 2017 - 08:27 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Leave them linked, up the limit to 3 (2 Gauss 1 PPC, 2 PPC 1 Gauss, 3 PPC).
Leave HPPC GH at 2
Increase LPPC GH to 4

[Daurock]

I think you're likely to see more linking of GH tables, not less. They've shown that they don't like people coring out an assault with 2 or 3 bursts. You can see it time and time again, when you look at the game's history. (for example, the original introduction of ghost heat, the nerfing of jumpjets, the original move of gauss rifles to their charge mechanic, and now the ghost heat link with ppcs.) Big, concentrated alpha seems to be a no-no according to them, and something that consistently gets the nerf bat.

(Personally though, if i had to guess, I'd guess on the devs lowering ghost heat limits for some lasers, not quite linking the tables yet.)

Edited by Daurock, 21 September 2017 - 08:35 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Im pretty sure a lot of us told you this wasnt going to help, in fact it was going to get worse with laser vomit being to strongk again.


NO one listens and now you all get to eat crow. Most of us saw this coming a mile away, PGI was the only one that thought it was a good idea to kill a build and diversity in a game they claim we can "play how we want"



Gauss ppc never hurt anyone other then laser vomit mechs which they are pretty much the counter too. NOw it vomit or go home. Nice diversity PGI so glad for skill forest.

Edited by Revis Volek, 21 September 2017 - 08:38 AM.

[Luminis]

Daurock, on 21 September 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

Big, concentrated alpha seems to be a no-no according to them, and something that consistently gets the nerf bat.

I don't know what direction PGI intends to take MWO in that regard and I don't wanna pretend I do, but even if that's the case, I'd still argue they were barking up the wrong tree, at least if we're strictly talking IS Gauss / PPC.

Because that stuff doesn't hold a candle to what they implemented with the CW update (after having it on the test server, mind you).

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah I mean I knew this was going to happen... de-link so I can have some more variety in the assault class.

[Bud Crue]

A humble suggestion for PGI on how I wish they would have approached the Gauss/PPC GH nerf:

1) Identify the mechs capable of using gauss/ppc.
2) Identify those that are top tier mechs.
3) Impose the gauss/ppc link on those mechs identified in step 2) if, and only if you really think they are causing an imbalance in the majority of matches wherein they are present and being used, and have the data to prove it.
4) leave those mechs identified in step 1) but not in steps 2) and 3) alone and free of the GH nerf.

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 September 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

In other words, 50 points of pinpoint damage (plus ten splash damage) don't seem nearly as OP now that we've got some builds pushing 78 damage alphas with pure Laser builds or even 80+ with Gauss Vomit.

lasers arnt pinpoint frontloaded damage though

huge difference between doing 50 instadamage to a single location location and doing 50 burn duration damage across multiple locations

its not at all the same thing

the damage concentration of gauss/ppc is why they got linked together for ghost heat

Edited by Khobai, 21 September 2017 - 09:38 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

lasers arnt pinpoint damage though

Lasers are pinpoint, they aren't frontloaded.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

lasers arnt pinpoint damage though

huge difference between doing 50 instadamage to one location and doing 50 burn damage across multiple locations

its not at all the same thing

Whatever, I'm not even convinced ER PPC/Gauss would dethrone some of the Gauss vomit builds out there right now, particularly on the Deathstrike. Laser vomit and quad ER PPC Clan assaults had already taken over when they linked them.

[Khobai]

Quote

Lasers are pinpoint, they aren't frontloaded.

theyre not really pinpoint when they hit multiple locations.

theyre only pinpoint when all the damage goes into one location

its similar to saying an LBX is a pinpoint weapon. LBX will always fire with its spread centered on the reticle. but the damage doesnt all hit the same location. so LBX isnt pinpoint either. laser beam duration is similar to the LBX spread mechanic in that regard.

Edited by Khobai, 21 September 2017 - 09:42 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

theyre only pinpoint when all the damage goes into one locatoin

If you are trying to suggest that doesn't happen very often, I have news for you.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

its similar to saying an LBX is a pinpoint weapon. LBX will always fire with its spread centered on the reticle. but the damage doesnt all hit the same location. so LBX isnt pinpoint either.

That's more different than it is similar. Lasers go pinpoint on where your reticle is, which means its possible to do 60+ damage to one location with lasers at 500m, and then tack on another 30 damage with dual gauss if you are in a Mad Cat Mk. II or Dire Wolf, to the same location. It happens more often than you seem to think. LBx has spread, so its geometrically impossible to get all the damage on one location beyond a certain range.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 21 September 2017 - 09:43 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

~100 points of Laser+gauss damage > 50 points of ERPPC+gauss damage. With all the mobility nerfs we've had, and the sad state of 100 tonners, people can't spread lasers around like they used to on many mechs, especially the larger ones. The sheer volume of damage that a laser+gauss build can push into an enemy completely outclasses ERPPC+Gauss, especially when its easy enough to put it all into one component on a 100 tonner. If we take the Dire Wolf's build with 78 damage energy alpha compared to the dual ERPPCs, that's 78 damage vs 20, you'd have to spread the vast majority of that damage for it to not have the same damage dealt in one component as the erppc version, this spread damage is high enough that it ends up mattering quite a bit, as even if you do spread it, you've still ripped off over 20 points of armor from every torso section you have, then the 30 points of gauss damage picks out a spot.

Just imagine if dual CERPPC splash damage was 25 points to both sides.

[kapusta11]

I wonder would Gauss PPC still be so dominant with the release of Heavy Large lasers and proper Gauss vomit chassis like MCII.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

theyre not really pinpoint when they hit multiple locations.

I don't think you understand what pinpoint indicates. Pinpoint means no deviation from crosshair (no projectile spread). The fact it is DoT and not front-loaded is why it spreads, not because it isn't pinpoint.

Pinpoint is a factor of spread in space
Frontloaded is a factor of spread in time

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

its similar to saying an LBX is a pinpoint weapon.

No, it isn't, because they spread for different reasons.
LBX are front loaded but not pinpoint.
Lasers are pinpoint but not front loaded.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 September 2017 - 09:49 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

There is a reason why Gauss/Laser and pure Laser vomit were not king of the hill before the Gauss/erPPC GH change. They simply were not the best tool to kill Mechs quickly and efficiently. It is no surprise that after the change players moved away from Gauss/erPPC. It still works. It is just not as efficient because you have to stagger the shots by a tick.

Something is always going to be best no matter what changes are made. Lasers are not the best but they are the easiest weapon in the game to use so they are always going to be near the top in usage.

Until they fix the cUAC jam chances/jam duration so I can run my 2xUAC/Laser builds successfully again I just cannot dredge up a lot of sympathy for the Gauss/erPPC users.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 21 September 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

There is a reason why Gauss/Laser and pure Laser vomit were not king of the hill before the Gauss/erPPC GH change. They simply were not the best tool to kill Mechs quickly and efficiently. It is no surprise that after the change players moved away from Gauss/erPPC. It still works. It is just not as efficient because you have to stagger the shots by a tick.

Something is always going to be best no matter what changes are made. Lasers are not the best but they are the easiest weapon in the game to use so they are always going to be near the top in usage.

Until they fix the cUAC jam chances/jam duration so I can run my 2xUAC/Laser builds successfully again I just cannot dredge up a lot of sympathy for the Gauss/erPPC users.

What you seem to not understand is that before the GH link, laser vomit and quad ER PPC assaults were already king of the hill. The ONLY mech that still primarily used Gauss/ER PPC was the Night Gyr, because of its ability to poptart.

[Mole]

Jay Leon Hart, on 21 September 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Increase LPPC GH to 4

Yes. Ghost heat of 3 for a weapon that does as much damage but weighs three times as much as a Medium Laser with a 90m deadzone is just silly. Being PPFLD is not helpful enough to justify me being only allowed to hit for a measly 15 damage a pop when I could hit for 30 without penalty and for three tons less and a similar range profile without having to contend with minumum range with 6 ER Medium Lasers.

Edited by Mole, 21 September 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[chucklesMuch]

De link please, I like more build diversity. (oh and unrelated also unlock the nightstars hands actuators too)