127 replies to this topic

[Rovertoo]

Yeah, I still feel that MGs are in a really unhealthy place. They are extremely UP (borderline useless) in all situations except against internal structure, where they are OP and reduce most everything to scrap in seconds. So without saying that the weapon is OP as a whole I will say that they need to be changed because binary 'incredibly useless/extremely effective' isn't a super fun weapon for game balance.

I think the best solution is simple greatly reduce crit chance to something like 2x or 3x and buff damage. Put them somewhere in the middle so it's not so extreme on both sides. Another possible solution I see is to make them function like MW4 machine guns, that is that they pulsed rounds out instead of being continuous, or possibly give them a jam bar like RACs but without a spinup time.

[Ghogiel]

While I am pretty sure after the LGM nerf MGs are probably fine, things need to play out a bit more for me to decide.

the only thing that makes me question that is the other day I saw someone with a MLX 1v1 one of the (imo) better EMP players who was in a laser vomit GAR. And win. Some how. One of those things you can do with leg humping something with torso mounted weaps apparently.

Edited by Ghogiel, 25 September 2017 - 06:37 PM.

[adamts01]

Mystere, on 25 September 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

You keep harping about tonnage. What about range?

I have a better idea: have MGs ignore armor and just do internal damage (i.e. armor piercing). That's a good exchange for loss of crits.

Not with all the structure buffs everything has. It would take forever to get a structure kill with MGs. Then unless you're boating them they're in a worse position as your overall time to get through armor to crit with other weapons would be raised. I like that they're crit seeking, I just think the crit needs to be toned down, ammo raised, and possibly a damage increase. Getting flashed with them at 300m and instantly losing all your guns is just lame.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 September 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Guess how long it takes to get through his armor for a majority of mechs (including other Mist Lynxes) and often at longer ranges than ones he is even a threat at?

I've invested on the survival tree on mine. 42 hit points on the MG arms and 64 hit points on each leg. The things are quite tanky. I don't know what kind of MLX wuold let you hit him with a gauss at long range, but say you did hit him, that's half a ton of gauss rounds over a period of 20+ seconds to take of a single leg, or the same ttk if you're running dual guass and want to kill the thing by shooting his legs out. Or it takes you 3-5 gauss rounds to take out a torso. Those things aren't paper.

GrimRiver, on 25 September 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

Do you even use the MLX-G?

I bought the arms and torso for my Invasion MLX. That thing is disgusting.

Verilligo, on 25 September 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Agreed and I think it's more likely the bonus arm damage rather than strike damage, assuming this game is from the most recent patch.

Not necessarily. Its one of those mechs that cleans house if the rest of his team is engaging.

Duke Nedo, on 25 September 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

I think mg crit damage is fine. Viable mgs have added a little depth to the game, don't ruin it... Add a few points of back armor if you feel the need.

The current build is 4ER smalls and 8 LMGs. If you run 2o back armor on your Atlas for example, all of your SRMs on that torso are gone in less time than a human can react.

chucklesMuch, on 25 September 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

Sigh... PGI releases new mgs and the light ones are actually worth taking even with inherent face time risk built in (HMG awful, mg's meh still collecting dust)... and then come the tears.. we must nerf fun new weapon until its terribad and irrevelant... gg close.

They require the same face time as plenty of weapons, ER lasers, AC2s, Rotarys.... That isn't a death sentence. While it is PGI fashion to nerf things to the ground, these just need to be toned down a little, more ammo, especially on the HMGs, less crit and more damage.

Trissila, on 25 September 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

I kind of feel that people should be required to play a non-laser-vomit Kitfox before they're allowed to request nerfs to machine guns.

Like most of this game, things are only over powered when boated, that's why we need a cone of fire to start spreading shots if you fire an insane amount of weapons at a single time. It's infinitely better than ghost heat.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

I've invested on the survival tree on mine. 42 hit points on the MG arms and 64 hit points on each leg.

All I need do is take the arms (I don't care about legs if I can neuter it), 42 damage isn't anything, that's roughly half of the alpha from a Deathstrike. With one alpha I can practically gimp it. Let that sink in, because it takes much longer for a Mist Lynx to do appreciable damage to you by itself unless it decides to give you a nice hug. Either way, the survival tree is pretty inconsequential for lights unless you have a boat load of structure quirks (which the ones you want you won't have because PGI "balancing").

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

I don't know what kind of MLX wuold let you hit him with a gauss at long range

Well one things for sure, he shouldn't just be "appearing" on your butt. If he is, he should be having to do so in front of all your friends otherwise you are just getting caught out of position which is something lights SHOULD be able to capitalize on otherwise what's the point in having mechs with low (or short range) firepower and superior maneuverability?

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

but say you did hit him, that's half a ton of gauss rounds over a period of 20+ seconds to take of a single leg, or the same ttk if you're running dual guass and want to kill the thing by shooting his legs out. Or it takes you 3-5 gauss rounds to take out a torso. Those things aren't paper.

Why go for the legs when the arms are such humongous targets and are easier to destroy. Seriously, what is the point in even bringing up the legs unless you are trying to deliberately be a bad player. It takes 3 Gauss rounds to rip off an arm and thus half of its firepower, that's not a lot of damage to seriously gimp something. It doesn't take much fire for it to melt. Even if it is taking inconsistent lasers to the arms, it adds up and quickly given how large they are.

I'm pretty sure this is another case where "git gud" is needed. If it were OP, you would damn sure be seeing it in comp, instead what you are seeing are its better brother the Arctic Cheetah (which does less MGs and does 3 high mounted lasers) and some of the other standbys the WLF-2 and FS9-S.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 September 2017 - 08:09 PM.

[adamts01]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 September 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

All I need do is take the arms (I don't care about legs if I can neuter it), 42 damage isn't anything, that's roughly half of the alpha from a Deathstrike.

You have to admit it's a little funny that you say it doesn't take much damage, then bring up an assault as an example, the latest cash-grab assault at that.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 September 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure this is another case where "git gud" is needed. If it were OP, you would damn sure be seeing it in comp, instead what you are seeing are its better brother the Arctic Cheetah (which does less MGs and does 3 high mounted lasers) and some of the other standbys the WLF-2 and FS9-S.

Just because a weapon/mech doesn't fit comp criteria isn't an excuse not to balance it. I think machine guns are slightly over-performing, and need a crit reduction, standardised ammo/ton, and probably a slight damage buff. And it's not at all a "git gud" case because half the time I'm the one with the LMGs, I know it's a little too strong by using it. I'm glad MGs and my MLX finally have a place in the game, but MGs just need a little refining at this point.

[Nightbird]

Rovertoo, on 25 September 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Yeah, I still feel that MGs are in a really unhealthy place. They are extremely UP (borderline useless) in all situations except against internal structure, where they are OP and reduce most everything to scrap in seconds. So without saying that the weapon is OP as a whole I will say that they need to be changed because binary 'incredibly useless/extremely effective' isn't a super fun weapon for game balance.

I think the best solution is simple greatly reduce crit chance to something like 2x or 3x and buff damage. Put them somewhere in the middle so it's not so extreme on both sides. Another possible solution I see is to make them function like MW4 machine guns, that is that they pulsed rounds out instead of being continuous, or possibly give them a jam bar like RACs but without a spinup time.

Like how ATMs are OP 120meters to 300 meters, UP further away, and useless up close?
Like how LBX is OP <100meters, mediocre 2-300 meters, useless>400 meters?
PPCs...

Edited by NlGHTBlRD, 25 September 2017 - 08:38 PM.

[Mcgral18]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

You have to admit it's a little funny that you say it doesn't take much damage, then bring up an assault as an example, the latest cash-grab assault at that.


Just because a weapon/mech doesn't fit comp criteria isn't an excuse not to balance it. I think machine guns are slightly over-performing, and need a crit reduction, standardised ammo/ton, and probably a slight damage buff. And it's not at all a "git gud" case because half the time I'm the one with the LMGs, I know it's a little too strong by using it. I'm glad MGs and my MLX finally have a place in the game, but MGs just need a little refining at this point.

He's saying the Assault could take both arms out in one attack


Any Medium vomit could do the same thing, it's 28 HP IIRC, pre tree
Few mechs alpha below that


If MGs get Crit reduction, they WILL NEED a damage buff, no ifs about it
Crits double their damage on average, and if you cut their damage by half, they'll need compensation

[Brain Cancer]

Basically, the only thing that gets MGs on the field right now is crit bonus, because otherwise, a weapon that barely scratches armor is frickin' useless.

Now, you want to make MGs deal damage across the board like they should and cut the whole "armor bad, structure good" thing for MGs? Might work. They still take obscene amounts of facetime and the quad-HMG Locust I just mashed didn't get me past yellow armor, because they're still vastly overwhelmed by guns that actually peel armor.

Strangely, in fact I found not one, not two, but three lights to bully as MG boats last match. MG boats are late game. Bully them early when your lights run into them, and you'll gain massive advantage by having those 2-3 kills done with minimal armor damage to your own team...and of course, you've preserved your own lights to do their job.

[adamts01]

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

He's saying the Assault could take both arms out in one attack

In theory world they could. I've honestly only ever instantly lost a single arm, when I was beeing stupid and let a Jager get the jump on me.

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Any Medium vomit could do the same thing, it's 28 HP IIRC, pre tree
Few mechs alpha below that

That's like referencing a Locust's speed pre skill tree without speed tweak. It's so rare to see than it just doesn't have to be mentioned. So again, in practice, no MLXs are running around with 28 HP arms, and assault aside, the only mechs with high enough alphas to take off an arm usually spread that damage.

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

If MGs get Crit reduction, they WILL NEED a damage buff, no ifs about it
Crits double their damage on average, and if you cut their damage by half, they'll need compensation

I agree with the damage bump, especially the heavy, but not by a whole lot. They still weigh nothing and have zero heat, and thanks to LMGs, also good range.

[Ghogiel]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

And it's not at all a "git gud" case because half the time I'm the one with the LMGs, I know it's a little too strong by using it. I'm glad MGs and my MLX finally have a place in the game, but MGs just need a little refining at this point.

Post your MLX specific stats if you are using those to determine that LMGs are too strong... cos from what I am looking at here:

https://mwomercs.com...1&user=adamts01

If that were me looking at that data, I would conclude that they are anything but OP and in fact under performing and need buffs

[chucklesMuch]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

They require the same face time as plenty of weapons, ER lasers, AC2s, Rotarys.... That isn't a death sentence. While it is PGI fashion to nerf things to the ground, these just need to be toned down a little, more ammo, especially on the HMGs, less crit and more damage.

We agree about more ammo for hmg's

The other weapons on heavier mechs will be in groups that have either or both much higher alphas and range.

[Trissila]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

They require the same face time as plenty of weapons, ER lasers, AC2s, Rotarys.... That isn't a death sentence.

ERLL Effective Range: 675 (740 Clan), Maximum Range 1300+
AC2 Effective Range: 720 (900 Clan), Maximum Range 1400+
RAC-5 Effective Range: 450, Maximum Range 900+

LMG effective Range: 250, Maximum Range 500

One of these things is not like the others.

Go on, ask what the numbers are for HMGs. Hint: It only gets trashier from here.

[Lily from animove]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 September 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

While MG based lights can be played well, they have also spawned a new wave of suicide lights, and butt-huggers, who just ram into other mechs at high speeds, facetiming them and messing with their ability to shoot back by being so close and moving (causing rubberbanding issues when differing pings are involved). So that does kind of suck.

so people need to adopt to these tactics? I usually stick with the fatties in my NVA exactly to keep the lights away in the earlier game and keepig an eye on them as well as supporting them if they go into battle. and if they hide i mostlikely guerilla around in their proximity.

[Shifty McSwift]

Lily from animove, on 25 September 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

so people need to adopt to these tactics? I usually stick with the fatties in my NVA exactly to keep the lights away in the earlier game and keepig an eye on them as well as supporting them if they go into battle. and if they hide i mostlikely guerilla around in their proximity.

Again, it's not the tactics so much as the actual way they play out with the current mechanics, and as a brawler in a fast moving heavy, lights in my butt is only a problem when I am already in over my head, so it doesn't effect me so much in that case. Also in the cases where it does effect me, usually in assault mechs, again it is only a real issue when I am already being swarmed and bound to die anyway (the issue of butt hugging lights that is), that is not so much the issue at all.

The problem is the act of slamming into other mechs, at huge speeds, and continuing to move across or into them, causing actual rubber banding, which advanages the guy with stream DPS hugely, if that rubberbanding causes misses.

The other thing that occurs frequently and kind of annoys me in every case is the old light slamming into your move path and stopping you dead in your tracks, no matter how big or fast you are moving, dead halted usually in the field of fire of many enemies, and sometimes for long periods, if that light gets a "good" position in your legs.

[Shifty McSwift]

And yes I play trying to watch out for and avoid these things because they do exist, but they kind of suck and shouldn't be encouraged, is my main point.

[Curccu]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

If you can't tell now, I couldn't care less about what people think about me.

..... You haven't thought this through. Rotary ACs deal 1dps per ton with considerable heat and a jam chance, while Clan MGs deal 2dps out to 130 with no heat, no jam chance and basically unlimited ammo. Their damage is fine, it's their crit ability that's out of whack. They're already a dps monster, they don't need an OP crit chance stacked on top of it. HMGs absolutely need more ammo/ton, I actually made a post about that, but LMGs and plain MGs are crazy powerful right now.

InfinityBall, on 25 September 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Let's see... triple the DPS and 6 CHMG would do far more DPS than 2 RAC5 while producing no heat and weighing 17 tons less. [edit: more DPS even if there were no RAC jamming mechanism, I believe]

I don't like an 80m range, but... I'd have to exploit the heck out of that

So that just proves that RACs are s***, which is true.

Thorqemada, on 25 September 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

No, they need to spread damage increasingly the more MGs you Mount bcs MGs are not pinpoint weapons AND they need more range: 125 # 250 # 375m

How did you get into this conclusion? have you shot a lot of 1/4 to 1 ton MGs that are mounted to 20/100 ton vehicle?
or do you think they are some bipod LMGs that humans shoot?

[JC Daxion]

I personally think they should just CAP the crit at some point. I don't wanna see if you just have a couple machine guns they are useless to take out weapons.. But these 6-8 machine gun boats are ridiculous.. you can loose all your weapons in a few seconds once you lost armor.


To me, boating flamers should be limited on how much heat they can add, and machine guns how much crit..


I've fought against tons of builds.. Nothing strips out weapons like machine guns.. You will loose a large weapon in a few seconds, every single time with zero time to react. Typically a weapon has to be fired, you take damage you can react and at least have a chance that it won't crit out. Machine gun boats, will strip you in a few seconds.. happens every time, and that is the issue. It's not so much the damage, its the fact you just loose every weapon so fast.

Edited by JC Daxion, 26 September 2017 - 12:47 AM.

[SOL Ranger]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 September 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

True, but nerf them too hard and you force them only to be used by the mechs that can boat them if at all.

That's the case most of the time, single MG(any type) use is weak and questionable already and the only reason I use them in configurations of only a few is because I like the feeling of shooting machine guns. That is why you boat them in the first place, for actual effect. In turn that boating creates exponential performance at one point creating viability due to the specialisation of the weapons but when surpassing and boating even more they become impossibly effective, especially in the right hands in extremely nimble mechs against a slow mech, less than optimal builds and less capable pilots.

In the end it's just about how PGI creates polarised weapons and game elements and how they don't account for the factor of effectiveness scaling when properties go to extremes and simply keep balancing one dimensionally. I can only assume they believe game elements interact inherently linearly if it is a linear property they adjust, when in fact they are innately and externally scaling as specialised and polarised elements making any change of values affect builds completely differently depending on how many machine guns it can carry.

Nerfing them makes only the most boated configurations still viable while anything with less increasingly becomes trash tier builds, buffing them makes the most boating configurations completely situationally overpowered and frustrating, there is no answer to the problem until you look deeper at the weapons and the chassis they are used on.

This won't be solved until PGI addresses the nature of the properties of MG's rather than the scale of them as it is not a question of nerfing them if one wants a meaningful solution, their power is questionable and not too high at all in terms of property allocations, this concerns also the LMG before the previous nerf just as well.

In fact I would claim significant buffs are required overall to bring them to a useful point when the scaling specialised crit properties are removed inevitably, range notably being one of those properties that needs to be added on all of them.

However try to get PGI to acknowledge this issue and do something creative about it without zealously looking for answers from their holy books and ancient scriptures, that is nigh impossible.

It's not difficult to make them meaningful weapons for all kinds of chassis in single/few and boated use while still not becoming extreme and frustrating for the enemies nor niche for only 2-3 mechs to use, and still retaining at least for one or two of the weapons to also be more vulnerability seeking.

it's all about making them more conventional weapons and less specialised, not all of them nor entirely but partly adjusting those most devastatingly specialised properties they have and giving new roles and uses for them, enough to remove the dysfunctional scaling effect of them while winning immense new ground of use on other heavier chassis as well.

I question the wisdom of their decision to keep the weapons in their current state, however I also question RAC, UAC, LRM, SSRM, ATM and Flamer polarisation effects just the same, ghost heat is also one of those polarised elements, ECM and target locks as well not to mention the lack of real options for adding back armour that seems to never be considered. While it is important that there exists differences in weapons and effects, it is also important to take away needlessly one sided polarised effects to promote more player interaction and pragmatic build diversity.

Maybe PGI needs to go back to the drawing board and think about what exactly is a meaningful mechanic for a weapon, such that it doesn't inherently become dysfunctional in the game for one side, both sides or the whole game dynamic. Also PGI should ask themselves what is the goal of the game, is it to have fun or replicate what I assume are TT elements by almost any means for some nostalgic feeling?

Edited by SOL Ranger, 26 September 2017 - 02:28 PM.

[adamts01]

Ghogiel, on 25 September 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Post your MLX specific stats if you are using those to determine that LMGs are too strong... cos from what I am looking at here:

https://mwomercs.com...1&user=adamts01

If that were me looking at that data, I would conclude that they are anything but OP and in fact under performing and need buffs

I honestly don't understand why you're acting like I'm calling for the nerf hammer. A little over-powered when it comes to stripping weapons? Absolutely, but I'd like to add to them as much or more than I'm asking to take away. Less crit, more damage, and more ammo for HMGs. My suggestions would actually be a buff in most situations, really nothing more than a slight re-purpose.

[Curccu]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

That's like referencing a Locust's speed pre skill tree without speed tweak. It's so rare to see than it just doesn't have to be mentioned. So again, in practice, no MLXs are running around with 28 HP arms, and assault aside, the only mechs with high enough alphas to take off an arm usually spread that damage.

Dual gauss will remove the arm, dual PPC will leave few internals to that arm and most like crit few MGs with that same shot.