24 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

I posted here instead of suggestions because I wanted to get peoples general thoughts on the idea of collision and ramming damage.

I dont mind how mechs can't destroy themselves by hitting terrain, for gameplay purposes it works out much less annoying with all the terrain issues, but when it comes to hitting other mechs, I find it just isn't deterring enough as it is, or even threatening in any way. This is most problematic when you consider that due to the way the engine or server communications work, rubbing against another mech at close range can cause serious rubberbanding.

For that reason alone they should be working to deter people bumping into eachother as much as possible, but also for other problematic aspects such as much lighter mechs completely stopping movement of heavier mechs.

For me the simple solution is to raise ramming damage substantially and modify to be different under circumstances, a light colliding at full speed with an assault traveling at its top speed head on, should hurt that light a lot more, etc.

The idea is NOT to make it a tactic because of the rubberbanding issues, instead to deter behaviours that are wildly illogical and interrupt play substantially.

What is everyone's thought on it?

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 September 2017 - 12:10 AM.

[Paigan]

Ramming, anyone?



---

Okay okay, on a more constructive note:
The tiny ramming damage we have is quite appropriate and logical.

Consider:
Mechs have armor that can withstand giant amounts of kinetic energy on tiny areas like AC bullets, Gauss, hundreds of missiles. Armor like that (however that would work) would be absolutely unaffected by another Mech bumping into it.
Compare knights in full armor:
If two knights run (or actually mostly "walk") into each other, they would get shaken up inside, sure, but the armor would be absolutely unaffected by the bump. It's made to withstand sword strikes and whatnot. Even if the kinetic energy is somewhat comparable, the area is HUGE in comparison. A bump won't even leave a dent.

That's also the very same reason why melee damage is absolutely nonsensical and hilariously childish in BT, but that's another topic.

Edited by Paigan, 26 September 2017 - 12:20 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

LoL, there was a point there myself where I thought ramming was kind of funny and could be made into the "melee" for the game through skill buffing and endo like upgrades. But it causes actual gameplay issues that should be avoided at all costs. IMO there needs to be a bit more work done there, but making the ram damage much more dangerous I think is the quickest and dirtiest method of deterring it.

[Kiiyor]

Paigan, on 26 September 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Ramming, anyone?



---

Okay okay, on a more constructive note:
The tiny ramming damage we have is quite appropriate and logical.

Consider:
Mechs have armor that can withstand giant amounts of kinetic energy on tiny areas like AC bullets, Gauss, hundreds of missiles. Armor like that (however that would work) would be absolutely unaffected by another Mech bumping into it.
Compare knights in full armor:
If two knights run (or actually mostly "walk") into each other, they would get shaken up inside, sure, but the armor would be absolutely unaffected by the bump. It's made to withstand sword strikes and whatnot. Even if the kinetic energy is somewhat comparable, the area is HUGE in comparison. A bump won't even leave a dent.

That's also the very same reason why melee damage is absolutely nonsensical and hilariously childish in BT, but that's another topic.

With the speed, tonnage and momentum of battlemechs, even a small impact would transfer a tremendous amount of energy. Pilots would be paste in the cockpit.

It's one of the classig blunders; applying physics to battletech.

[N0ni]

Raising collision damage will only bring out the griefers, a good example is a sim racing game i like to hop onto from time to time (can't resist not jumping into a trueno or fd, but back on topic). The servers that i join (by the same owners) feature mountain tracks (sometimes very narrow) sometimes things occur, bumps happen, or someone eats the guardrail. Anyway, it was brought up in their discord that maybe they should increase damage from zero to promote safer driving... but what's really going to happen? The trolls are going to jump in R34s and ruin everyone's day.

Same thing applies here, griefers are going to pick the heaviest mech that has good speed to it and ram teammates. So, let's keep damage where it's at.

[Shifty McSwift]

N0ni, on 26 September 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

Raising collision damage will only bring out the griefers, a good example is a sim racing game i like to hop onto from time to time (can't resist not jumping into a trueno or fd, but back on topic). The servers that i join (by the same owners) feature mountain tracks (sometimes very narrow) sometimes things occur, bumps happen, or someone eats the guardrail. Anyway, it was brought up in their discord that maybe they should increase damage from zero to promote safer driving... but what's really going to happen? The trolls are going to jump in R34s and ruin everyone's day.

Same thing applies here, griefers are going to pick the heaviest mech that has good speed to it and ram teammates. So, let's keep damage where it's at.

Not necessarily, see if the goal is to avoid abuse and the rubberbanding stuff, the design can be based around it, having weight and speed taken into account on both ends of the collision, you avoid encouraging things like lights who focus on ramming, and with that speed difference in mind the faster heavies and assaults would struggle to abuse it vs smaller faster targets anyway.

It's not out of the equation to do it in a way that helps the flow of play, and I am not saying this is some plague of an issue, but when it pops up, it stands out. I mean who currently considers the ramming damage as anything other than maybe a slight annoyance or an insignificant quirk?

[AJBennett]

Oh boy, another thing for PGI to screw up...no thanks.

[Lily from animove]

maybe instead of damage give the rammign mechs some kind of movement speed penalty, like beeing lagged for speed/10seconds when they rushed into something.

[Relishcakes]

RAMMING SPEED!

https://goo.gl/images/G1SSwt

[Mcgral18]

Paigan, on 26 September 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Ramming, anyone?



---

Okay okay, on a more constructive note:
The tiny ramming damage we have is quite appropriate and logical.

Consider:
Mechs have armor that can withstand giant amounts of kinetic energy on tiny areas like AC bullets, Gauss, hundreds of missiles. Armor like that (however that would work) would be absolutely unaffected by another Mech bumping into it.
Compare knights in full armor:
If two knights run (or actually mostly "walk") into each other, they would get shaken up inside, sure, but the armor would be absolutely unaffected by the bump. It's made to withstand sword strikes and whatnot. Even if the kinetic energy is somewhat comparable, the area is HUGE in comparison. A bump won't even leave a dent.

That's also the very same reason why melee damage is absolutely nonsensical and hilariously childish in BT, but that's another topic.

You seem to be forgetting the whole momentum part of the equation
A 100 ton robot could put quite a bit of force into a point compared to a 200 kg shell (plus HE)

The Kevlar Vest can stand up pistol catridges, but won't stop a knife
Of course, ablative armour is meant to let nothing pass, but just about everything can tear some off, including kinetic hits of sufficient force


As for the OP, why would the heavier mech get hurt less than the Light?
They both have the same armour and will be feeling the same kinetic impact, they'd take the same armour damage
On a relative scale, the Light would lose more, but on an absolute level they'd be the same

[AJBennett]

Mcgral18, on 26 September 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

You seem to be forgetting the whole momentum part of the equation
A 100 ton robot could put quite a bit of force into a point compared to a 200 kg shell (plus HE)

The Kevlar Vest can stand up pistol catridges, but won't stop a knife
Of course, ablative armour is meant to let nothing pass, but just about everything can tear some off, including kinetic hits of sufficient force


As for the OP, why would the heavier mech get hurt less than the Light?
They both have the same armour and will be feeling the same kinetic impact, they'd take the same armour damage
On a relative scale, the Light would lose more, but on an absolute level they'd be the same

..sort of a 10 pts to you when you only have 20 compared to 10 pts when you have 80 means a lot more...right?

[Mystere]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 September 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

I posted here instead of suggestions because I wanted to get peoples general thoughts on the idea of collision and ramming damage.

I dont mind how mechs can't destroy themselves by hitting terrain, for gameplay purposes it works out much less annoying with all the terrain issues, but when it comes to hitting other mechs, I find it just isn't deterring enough as it is, or even threatening in any way. This is most problematic when you consider that due to the way the engine or server communications work, rubbing against another mech at close range can cause serious rubberbanding.

For that reason alone they should be working to deter people bumping into eachother as much as possible, but also for other problematic aspects such as much lighter mechs completely stopping movement of heavier mechs.

For me the simple solution is to raise ramming damage substantially and modify to be different under circumstances, a light colliding at full speed with an assault traveling at its top speed head on, should hurt that light a lot more, etc.

The idea is NOT to make it a tactic because of the rubberbanding issues, instead to deter behaviours that are wildly illogical and interrupt play substantially.

What is everyone's thought on it?

Actually, it should hurt both mechs substantially (but not equally, of course).

[Athom83]

Mcgral18, on 26 September 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

As for the OP, why would the heavier mech get hurt less than the Light?
They both have the same armour and will be feeling the same kinetic impact, they'd take the same armour damage
On a relative scale, the Light would lose more, but on an absolute level they'd be the same

Yah, but the bigger mech has more mass and area to spread that force out upon and absorb the impact. Because of the vastly smaller area of armor coverage on the light, it doesn't absorb the kinetic energy as well so it shears of more ablative armor than the heavier mech. Not saying the heavier mech wouldn't lose a substantial amount itself, just that the greater mass and area help it lose not as much.

[AncientRaig]

Paigan, on 26 September 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Ramming, anyone?



---

Okay okay, on a more constructive note:
The tiny ramming damage we have is quite appropriate and logical.

Consider:
Mechs have armor that can withstand giant amounts of kinetic energy on tiny areas like AC bullets, Gauss, hundreds of missiles. Armor like that (however that would work) would be absolutely unaffected by another Mech bumping into it.
Compare knights in full armor:
If two knights run (or actually mostly "walk") into each other, they would get shaken up inside, sure, but the armor would be absolutely unaffected by the bump. It's made to withstand sword strikes and whatnot. Even if the kinetic energy is somewhat comparable, the area is HUGE in comparison. A bump won't even leave a dent.

That's also the very same reason why melee damage is absolutely nonsensical and hilariously childish in BT, but that's another topic.

You kinda contradict yourself here. Lets say, for example, that I'm walking down the street and not really paying attention to where I'm going. Someone else is walking towards me, also not paying attention, and we collide. We might stumble a little, maybe get a brief shock of light pain at worst, but other than that we'll be fine. However, if I punch the other guy in the face as hard as I possibly can right before we walk into each other, I'm probably going to hurt him pretty badly. And if I keep swinging eventually I'd kill him. It's a similar concept with mech melee, just on a much larger scale.

[Moadebe]

It sounds like a good concept on paper, and I personally would love the ability to ram someone to death if say I am stripped of all weapons and I just have that one option left. However, looking back at when collision knockdowns were a real thing and knowing people like to troll...no. It will be abused even if the intent was meant to discourage such behavior.

[Johnny Z]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 September 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

I posted here instead of suggestions because I wanted to get peoples general thoughts on the idea of collision and ramming damage.

I dont mind how mechs can't destroy themselves by hitting terrain, for gameplay purposes it works out much less annoying with all the terrain issues, but when it comes to hitting other mechs, I find it just isn't deterring enough as it is, or even threatening in any way. This is most problematic when you consider that due to the way the engine or server communications work, rubbing against another mech at close range can cause serious rubberbanding.

For that reason alone they should be working to deter people bumping into eachother as much as possible, but also for other problematic aspects such as much lighter mechs completely stopping movement of heavier mechs.

For me the simple solution is to raise ramming damage substantially and modify to be different under circumstances, a light colliding at full speed with an assault traveling at its top speed head on, should hurt that light a lot more, etc.

The idea is NOT to make it a tactic because of the rubberbanding issues, instead to deter behaviours that are wildly illogical and interrupt play substantially.

What is everyone's thought on it?

A great idea. It doesn't have to be like the Long Tom in faction play and be off the leash. It can be a little bit of damage.

[terrycloth]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 September 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

I posted here instead of suggestions because I wanted to get peoples general thoughts on the idea of collision and ramming damage.

I dont mind how mechs can't destroy themselves by hitting terrain, for gameplay purposes it works out much less annoying with all the terrain issues, but when it comes to hitting other mechs, I find it just isn't deterring enough as it is, or even threatening in any way. This is most problematic when you consider that due to the way the engine or server communications work, rubbing against another mech at close range can cause serious rubberbanding.

For that reason alone they should be working to deter people bumping into eachother as much as possible, but also for other problematic aspects such as much lighter mechs completely stopping movement of heavier mechs.

For me the simple solution is to raise ramming damage substantially and modify to be different under circumstances, a light colliding at full speed with an assault traveling at its top speed head on, should hurt that light a lot more, etc.

The idea is NOT to make it a tactic because of the rubberbanding issues, instead to deter behaviours that are wildly illogical and interrupt play substantially.

What is everyone's thought on it?

Making ramming useful is not going to stop people from ramming. You'll just end up making people pissy at teammates who walked into them while zoomed in.

[Torkke]

[adamts01]

Paigan, on 26 September 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Ramming, anyone?
Okay okay, on a more constructive note:
The tiny ramming damage we have is quite appropriate and logical.

Consider:
Mechs have armor that can withstand giant amounts of kinetic energy on tiny areas like AC bullets, Gauss, hundreds of missiles. Armor like that (however that would work) would be absolutely unaffected by another Mech bumping into it.

Consider: It's a silly game, and battletech isn't realistic in the first place. Gameplay should trump realism when it comes to balance.

N0ni, on 26 September 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

Raising collision damage will only bring out the griefers,

This game honestly doesn't have enough of that type of behavior to worry me. Plus, look at the code of conduct, which PGI seems to be enforcing fairly well, you can't even black a teammate without getting warnings and a ban. And obviously ramming a teammate would rack up team damage and that corresponding penalty. Just for the rubber-banding problem alone I think this should be added, let damage be a secondary purpose that can't compete with weapons.

[Johnny Z]

adamts01, on 26 September 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Consider: It's a silly game, and battletech isn't realistic in the first place. Gameplay should trump realism when it comes to balance.

This game honestly doesn't have enough of that type of behavior to worry me. Plus, look at the code of conduct, which PGI seems to be enforcing fairly well, you can't even black a teammate without getting warnings and a ban. And obviously ramming a teammate would rack up team damage and that corresponding penalty. Just for the rubber-banding problem alone I think this should be added, let damage be a secondary purpose that can't compete with weapons.

Bound to be "incidents" and trolling. But sometimes its best to let the players work it out themselves. Its a balance thing I guess.