213 replies to this topic

[arcana75]

Well if you guys are done cockfighting...

Question, how many tons of LRM ammo should I carry? Running a HBK-4J with 2xLRM10 and 5 tons ammo and totally unskilled I fired off all my ammo really quickly. I do have 5 ML as backup tho with an XL275 heat management isn't so good. Should I drop the MLs and switch to smalls for more ammo?

[LordNothing]

when i run lerms (rare though it may be), its usually a mixed build and never over 1k missiles. in this case the missiles are only used for softening up targets to the point where i can go in and drill into them with lasers/ballistics for the kill. never really considered a full on boat to be viable.

[Lykaon]

MischiefSC, on 01 October 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

My only point is that LRMs are not as good as direct fire at winning matches with good players/good teams. That's it. They're good in QP at farming where there's always some less skilled people to shoot them at.

I'm absolutely in favor of giving LRMs some buffs but carefully and keeping in mind how they could get out of hand with auto-aim and indirect fire.

The issue is with people saying that LRMs are as good or better than direct fire at winning matches regardless of player skill 'if you use them right'. That argument comes up a lot.

Well I'm with you on that LRMs will not out perform direct fire weapons. I've seen this actually play out.

For anyone who is in doubt of this I can lay out some points to consider.

LRMs require locks to fire accuratley. This is a delay in time between targets being sighted and when you can actually fire. This essentially means that if two mechs of equal skill round a bend on each other one has 2 LRM15s (14 tons of weapons) and the other has 2 PPCs (also 14 tons of weapons) the guy with the PPCs get their shot off first.

The LRM mech is waiting on the lock to fire at about the time 20 damage has hit them all in one spot!

Not a good start eh?

The LRMs now fire and travel to the target at the distressingly unimpressive speed of 160 meters per second. Assuming an engagement distance of around 300-350m this is about two seconds of flight time.

TWO SECONDS! or what I will now point out is half the cooldown of the other guys PPCs.

The LRMs now hit the target that even if they stood absolutley still and did nothing to twist to disperse damage will take about 30 damage spread across at least three body locations. I say about 30 damage because even with artemis you will have some missiles fail to connect sometimes.

PPC guy now fires again...now let's assume they can hit the same spot 'cause neither pilot is nub scrub materiel. That's 40 damage sustained to one spot.

Now the good news is the LRMs have maintained a lock and can fire a volley on every cooldown of 4 seconds (the same duration as the PPCs cooldown)

Except every 4 seconds the PPCs place 20 damage in one spot and the LRM15s are dispersing a maximum of 30 damage across a minimum of three body sections.

Who is going to win this trade?

But,but the heat? the PPCs are hotter! yeah but...

I have an actual mech a Firebrand with two PPCs 2 LMGs and 4 ER sml lasers w/ 18 DHS. Just trading PPC shots according to smurfy I have 40 seconds of fire before an over heat or 20 combined PPC shots equaling 200 damage and this is without using a coolshot that you better believe I have.

I also have a Catapult C1 with two ALRM15s 3 medium lasers a TAG and a BAP. It will be toast facing the Firebrand head to head. Every time. There is no competiton between the two.

So to anyone who thinks they can trade with direct fire... you are doing it wrong. You are only succeeding by doing this because you opposition sucks that bad. Bottom line is they let you get away with it it wasn't your brilliant strategy that won the day it was their incompitence.


That being said, Using LRMs "right" isn't trading shots with direct fire mechs it's not even about the damage it's about exerting influence and pressure on an enemy it's about removing the oppositions initiative.

I say it's not about the damage because as has been said and outlined there are far better options for dealing damage. Using LRMs "right" is exploiting the unique properties that only LRMs have.

But... players can use flamers "right" and it will still only be nitche weapon and certainly not an all encompassing strategy to defeat all comers. Same goes for LRMs to much specialty removes diversity and leaves you high and dry if the circumstances you need to shine never arise.

Edited by Lykaon, 01 October 2017 - 11:04 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Ted Wayz, on 01 October 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

Wha...

No Kintaro? The best medium missile boat...evah.

Shame.

I've never used one, so I couldn't recommend it

[Jay Leon Hart]

arcana75, on 01 October 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

Question, how many tons of LRM ammo should I carry? Running a HBK-4J with 2xLRM10 and 5 tons ammo and totally unskilled I fired off all my ammo really quickly. I do have 5 ML as backup tho with an XL275 heat management isn't so good. Should I drop the MLs and switch to smalls for more ammo?

I've always found 1 ton per 5 tubes is enough, 5 tons should be plenty. Are you already running a TAG and/or BAP? Did you already strip the left arm?

I would plonk a TAG in the head and a BAP in the LT, strip the LA, leave MLs in the RT and RA (that leaves 4 ML), see how much ammo that gets you.

[arcana75]

Jay Leon Hart, on 02 October 2017 - 01:16 AM, said:

I've always found 1 ton per 5 tubes is enough, 5 tons should be plenty. Are you already running a TAG and/or BAP? Did you already strip the left arm?

I would plonk a TAG in the head and a BAP in the LT, strip the LA, leave MLs in the RT and RA (that leaves 4 ML), see how much ammo that gets you.

Thanks, yeah I have a TAG in the head, but I maxed out armour... ok I'll try to add more ammo.

[Burke IV]

If LRMs are inferior to direct fire its because PGIs balance point for LRMs is for them to be useless. They wernt always that way but people who lacked the skill to dodge or use cover kept getting killed and whining about it. If LRMs are really so weak thats kind of the same as saying they need to be buffed and yet thats never going to happen is it? Fact is that a certain group had predudice against LRMs that goes back to before this game existed.

This game could so easily be boiled down to heat and lasers now that it barely needs the battletech connection anymore. Thats not a well made game.

[Dthamilaye]

When I want to boat LRM, I use this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b9e96af642efda

Skills ->
Firetree, 6 missile points with least amount of points + few easy-to-get heat sinks (27 points total)
Survival, all armor, structure and AMS slots (32 points total)
Operations, first 6% cooldown, (11 points)
Sensors, full radar, full seismic and all target decays (21 points)
Total 91 points.


Enough pipes to make a difference and enough missiles to keep on going. One cLPL to not feel naked if someone comes to visit.

[MischiefSC]

MW222, on 01 October 2017 - 10:02 PM, said:

Hey, you had some great QP matches! That's nifty.

So come play in a group with average or better players and see how that works. I've got a stack of LBX+MG matches with 800+ damage in my Jag I took pics of, because anything can do well in QP.

Which is why we want to test it. So you up for actually helping in a test? We're creeping up on 8 people for the LRM team.

[C E Dwyer]

Hunchback-4H

[MischiefSC]

Lykaon, on 01 October 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

Stuff

The problem with LRMs for 'exerting pressure' is it only works against people who don't play well under pressure.

I play with KCom and we do FW almost exclusively. While I've only been in KCom tags for a little under a year, Pat Kell could confirm for you that in thousands and thousands and thousands of drops since FW started KCom has never lost to LRMs. Not one match. Ever.

If I see the missile warning indicator the only thing I'll do is a quick check to see the missile trajectory so I know about where he's at for us to go clean him up when his team is all dead. I'll also wiggle my mouse back and forth a bit to spread the damage and if I'm getting a ton of cockpit flashes I'll turn on night vision so they're irrelevant. Because I can shrug off 4 or 5 volleys of LRMs if need be. If there's convenient cover and I'm soft I'll shift into cover while maintaining fire on the exposed enemies.

The result of that is almost universally that we end the wave 12 to 1. Sure, I may go down from having soaked fire but essentially that LRM guy, by not being direct fire and staying in position to fire, let us focus fire his teammates and reduced his own ability to do direct damage. KCom pushes a lot. We'll run 12 mechs in (or out) of a gate and right into the enemy. We're usually breaking up into 3v1 or 4v1 to focus targets down in 1 to 2 alphas, then on to the next. We're all 12 shooting however all the time, we've all got LoS to a target all the time or we're 1 second away from it. If there's a 'spotter' he's getting shot at by 12 people and not long for the world.

I recall one match against a coordinated Steiner team on Alpine. We were literally out in the open at the bottom of the big hill, with the long, shallow approach when their 2 narc ravens started narcing us and the LRMs started up. We just pushed through, both ravens dropped quickly. I know I went down to LRMs but in that time the rest of us had pushed up and crushed them. In wave 2 we were farming them out of their DZ. I think we ended the match 48 to 14 or the like.

The problem with the 'I can shoot at people I can't see' thing is it makes you comfortable with not seeing the enemy. You always want to be moving to the front, getting line of sight. This keeps you on the move and fighting and it ensures you're always sharing armor with your team.

That's why people say LRMs teach bad habits. They teach most people to not be actively sharing armor and to be comfortable with not being out front. If you're not jostling to be out in front, not constantly from the moment your mech is falling from the dropship hustling all out to be first to shoot the enemy, you're doing it wrong. Yes, there's a lot more strategy that goes into it, but that mentality needs to be at the forefront. You win by shooting more, engaging more, focusing your damage to the enemy and spreading their damage out among your team.

[Lykaon]

MischiefSC, on 02 October 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

<your stuff>

Right and that right there is the issue.

Solo quick play and in general group queue and Faction warfare is not KCom. The vast majority of this game is not played on that level of proficiency.

Well co-ordinated teams know they can count on each other. They know what the task is and what they are doing right then right now.

But I wasn't talking about the top 5% players who know what they (and their team mates) are doing during every point in a well drilled called match.

95% (arbitrary high percentage) of the games played are 12 randoms vs 12 randoms or a sprinkling of small groups vs a sprinkling of other small groups (who don't share comms)

In these matches LRMs can make an impact and shape an out come of a match. And the reason is LRMs sow confusion and apply pressure on player attentions.

In well drilled premades the amount of confusion is dramitcly reduced by having a solid drop caller. The individual mechwarrior doesn't have to keep track of as many things knowing they have reliable team support and the drop command will issue you orders.

A solo puggie is thinking....is Golf five clear to move to? Where did that enemy Madcat II go? What is shooting my back..is it a friendly (moron) is it a back stabbing enemy light? what target do I fire on? ...where are all these LRMs coming from!

Meanwhile a premade mechwarrior is told move to Golf Five and engage target Bravo. You glance at your surroundings take measure of the battle at that moment and then execute the order! it won't matter if some LRM rain is tickling your armor because you and three team mates are gonna light up target Bravo take them out in about 4.5 seconds and be onto the next target.

In the grand scheme of the whole battle plan it doesn't even matter if your one mech does fall to LRM fire. The rest of your team will be up and running and in that LRM carriers grill in seconds.

Solos do not think like this. To them they are the one real important thing on the battlefield if they get killed it's game over for them. They lost. And that is how LRMs will work on solos and disorganized group play but have a minimal effect on well drilled called drops.


My take on what will make LRMs more effective is to only improve their direct fire capacity and leave the indirect fire as it is now.

I would reduce the min range to 90m

Increase direct fire missile velocity to 350 MPS

Artemis launchers get and additional 125 mps speed (matching MRM speeds)
retain the ballistic arc even on direct fire (to differenciate MRMs and LRMs further and retain the second line utility of the LRM)

This will still result in a weapon that gets out played by most conventional direct fire weapons but...it's a start.

[MischiefSC]

Lykaon, on 02 October 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

Stuff

Balance is balance. A weapon that's only good against bad, uncoordiniated players is a bad weapon. You're just selecting targets you can still kill with it.

That's the whole point.

I'm game with most of your changes, except I would say remove all minimum ranges on EVERYTHING. Have damage scale down to 50% at 0m. The ability to neutralize LRMs by closing is a big part of why they're irrelevant. I'd agree with the ideas of faster speed on direct fire vs indirect.

I think you could also give LRMs a number of buffs if you require TAG/NARC or T3+ targeting computer on both targeting and firing mechs to do indirect fire.

You don't want a weapon that only works on bads. That's a bad weapon. You want a weapon that's viable even in top tier teams and also against pugs without being OP broken in either. ERPPCs are a good example of that. So is gauss. So are most medium/large laser setups.

I would love to see a team give serious consideration to LRMs for competitive play without it being a broken meta. That's going to involve sufficient risk/reward and dramatic decrease in ability to just camp in cover and shoot.

[metallio]

So all we need is for LRMs to have 1000fps speed, tight groupings, no minimum range, and have instant locks?

I'm game.

[arcana75]

Cathy, on 02 October 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hunchback-4H

Why the 4H over other variants eg the 4J?

[MischiefSC]

metallio, on 02 October 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

So all we need is for LRMs to have 1000fps speed, tight groupings, no minimum range, and have instant locks?

I'm game.

They need to shoot out of a PPC generator then.

[Y E O N N E]

Trissila, on 01 October 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

You are gravely mistaken about the genre of video game to which Mechwarrior belongs.

This is not Quake or Unreal. This is a vehicle simulation game (arguments about how dumbed-down it is from a "true" sim can wait for some other thread). Locking, indirect-fire weaponry are a part of modern and future vehicular combat.

And as it is, MWO is the least effective that LRMs have ever been in Mechwarrior games.

I'm not mistaken at all. If it's combat-oriented, the vehicular sim is still a sub-set of shooter.

[Zibmo]

I am partial to the KTO-18. Fast, maneuverable, great rate of fire. It's not a heavy hitter, but it has the net effect of being a swarm of mosquitos. If I see a light engaged with a heavy or assault, I chain fire the heavy till it loses its mind.

Great mech actually. Lots of LRM5, 2ml. One of my best mechs. But you have to really treat it as a slow light mech with LRMs on it. You have to stay mobile and stay with the group.

If you play it like a turret, you die. Fast.

Edited by Zibmo, 02 October 2017 - 06:32 PM.

[InvictusLee]

arcana75, on 01 October 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

Well if you guys are done cockfighting...

Question, how many tons of LRM ammo should I carry? Running a HBK-4J with 2xLRM10 and 5 tons ammo and totally unskilled I fired off all my ammo really quickly. I do have 5 ML as backup tho with an XL275 heat management isn't so good. Should I drop the MLs and switch to smalls for more ammo?

Your LRM boat cannot be considered a good boat unless you are carrying atleast 8-12 tons of ammo. Sometimes this means dropping Artemis for lighter racks. It also helps to have backup lasers for if and when you do eventually run out of ammo. I usually run a minimum of 4 ERMLS or 2 ERPPCs, or 2 LLs. Then again, all of my lrm boats are clan tech, so I can get away with that most of the time. my LULZbacker actually has 5 LRM5s and 4 HMLS. It has so much ammo, and can fire so quickly, and so fast that i can literally run down my targets. I almost never run out of ammo. I used to hate my linebacker. Now I think its one of the best LRM boats to ever be injected into the game.

[Lykaon]

metallio, on 02 October 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

So all we need is for LRMs to have 1000fps speed, tight groupings, no minimum range, and have instant locks?

I'm game.

Well even then they won't be all that good you basically described an LB10X without the crit bonuses.