102 replies to this topic

[IL MECHWARRIOR]

In comp mode everyone used PPCs, machineguns and lasers. We even saw some missiles (hpg match, run by PHL).
Ballistics are totally and completely out of the comp scene, this because they are completely underpowered.


ballistics are too hot: PGI only compares their damage per heat emitted, but do not calculate at all that laser boats can spam double heat sinks, dakka boats can not.

UACs ACs and LBXs need a coordinated design, so everyone of them has a role

UACs: more dps: used for spamming damage at mid range distances, they should jam less.
AC: more range and projectile speed: more accurate shots at range
LBX: more damage but less range, used for brawling

THE HEAT SHOULD BE THE SAME

0.5 for the .2
1.0 for the .5
2.0 for the .10
4.0 for the .20

GAUSS
gausses need more range
Light gauss 950
Gauss 800 (coold 4.5)
Heavy gauss 400 (coold 4.5)
(x2 to max range on all of those)




Example of balancing using the .10 model

UAC 10 (included 80% less jam)
range-500
damage-10
heat-2
speed 1100


AC10
range 650
damage 10
heat 2
speed 1400

LBX10 (included actual crit chance)
Range 400
damage 13
heat 2
speed 1100

Edited by anonymous223, 02 October 2017 - 11:21 PM.

[El Bandito]

UAC DPS is good enough. It is just that current meta at high level favors peekaboo trading, where ACs fall flat.

And no to CGauss buff.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 October 2017 - 11:45 PM.

[Jingseng]

No one drives a stock Civic or Impulse or whatever else on the F1 circuit.

Clearly it is because these cars are totally unsuitable to be called cars. They need to be raised to 600whp+ levels to begin to be taken seriously.

If I have to explain the "fine and subtle nuances" found herein, there's really no point.

[Jun Watarase]

Pretty much every laser vomit out performs ballistics simply because it is hitscan. Keeping your crosshair on a moving target is largely a virtue of skill, getting burst fire ACs to hit every spot on a moving target is largely RNG because most projectile velocities are too low. Ever lead a target, fired, and then have the rounds miss because the target just happeed to change speed/direction at the last second? That's not something under your control. That doesnt happen wtih a hitscan weapon obviously.

I did some maths and unfortunately every laser vomit build has comparable alpha, facetime and time to cool with every laser/ballistic build using UAC 10s/20s.

(Builds may not be 100% optimal)

----------------------------------

Typical 9 MPL EBJ laser vomit build :

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da71838808d21f9

24 DHS = 4.1 heat/s

42.75 heat for 9 med pulse (fired without ghost heat)

42 damage (6 med pulse) + 21 damage (3 med pulse) = total 63 damage alpha

10.43 s to cool down from a 6 + 3 alpha

Total burn duration/face time : 1.31 seconds (0.81 burn duration with all 4 laser duration skill nodes + 0.5s wait time to avoid ghost heat)

-------------

EBJ-A build with 4 MPL/1 UAC 20 to take advantage of quirks :

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...30f245ccad2bc70

18 DHS = 3.2 heat/s

33 heat for 4 med pulse/1 UAC 20 (double tapping)

48 damage, 68 if double tapping

10.31 seconds to cool down from one alpha if double tapping

Total burn duration/face time : Roughly 1 second if double tapping the UAC (assumes 0.5s per burst)

And obviously laser vomit beats ballistics for burst as well unless you are looking at a KDK-3 or something similar. Ballistics are only superior if you need sustained DPS for pushing.

There's like, three competitive builds in the game now, UAC boating for pushing, SRM boating on brawl maps, laser vomit for everything else (IS pulse boats can brawl too).

Edited by Jun Watarase, 03 October 2017 - 02:41 AM.

[Mr Snrub]

Pretty much this. I watched some NGNG streams lately and Sean could shoot all day with his 8MPL hero Timby and didn't even get close to overheating.

Instead of buffing other weapons I'd prefer if they nerf Lasers though. (Well, maybe increase projectile speed too, 1200 m/s of the PPCs is just silly for the enormous heat you're building up.)

[Khobai]

seems like comp play is the problem just get rid of that

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 03 October 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

seems like comp play is the problem just get rid of that

Seems like clueless founders is the problem just get rid of that

[Bombast]

Khobai, on 03 October 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

seems like comp play is the problem just get rid of that

On one hand, that's not a solution. On the other...

Vxheous, on 03 October 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

Seems like clueless founders is the problem just get rid of that

[Khobai]

Quote

On one hand, that's not a solution. On the other...

its a great solution since less than 5% of people play comp. PGI could then focus on improving the game for the other 95%.

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 03 October 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

its a great solution since less than 5% of people play comp. PGI could then focus on improving the game for the other 95%.

How do you propose to remove comp play when comp play is regular play with a set number of people working together with matching tactics? All you'd do by removing that tab is shift them from one queue to another or send them to a different game completely. And even then, the tactics, weapons, and mechs chosen would still be used by others because... they're the best tactics, weapons, and mechs to use. To change that, you'd need to make radical changes elsewhere... like the exact ones being proposed here.

I just don't understand. You want to get away from current comp level play, so you're opposing changes that would shift things away from current comp level play?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I like some of those ideas OP. Gauss might not need as big of a buff, its still used in some of the meta builds, however the light gauss and heavy gauss buffs seem justified. I like that you increased the flat damage of LBX and gave the ACs higher vel over the UACs to solidify their higher pinpoint damage and accuracy compared to the bullet hose UACs.

Overall I like it, could have some small refinements and testing and would improve the viability of things at the higher levels of play. 400m optimal range along with skill tree range boosts might just make dual hgauss + 6 ERML 80 damage alpha Mauler an option. Will still be hard to come close to the Deathstrike though.

[Paigan]

Some, IDK, 20 years ago, as a teenager or even sooner than that, I played TT and took a simple look at ballistics:
They are ridiculously heavy, rely on ammo (that can even explode), don't deal particularily high damage - and they are even quite HOT, too. Simple conclusion: every Mech with ACs sucks (in TT). Everything else is emotionally underpinned (like imagining your favorite Mech walzing in with ACs hammering the enemy and suff ).

PGI compensated it a little bit by tweaking the numbers, giving ACs screen shake, giving lasers duration, etc.
But the basic problem (of BT in general) remains: the basic stats really, really suck.
The stats and rules of BT seem to be devised by a 10 year old (or a really, really dumb adult) or something like that. Hopelessly imbalanced and half-baked (e.g. where are some 2-3 ton ballistics? etc.) and every game that tries to do something with BT has to make a gigantic effort to make it halfway sane and playable. E.g. Mechcommander, which threw the basic stats over board alltogether and devised a simpler and more balanced concept, only keeping the name of the guns.

Earthsiege, for example, has much more eloborate and balanced system:
Energy weapons are good against shield, ACs are good against armor. ACs suck against shield, but once the shield is gone, no laser can ever compete with ACs. Hence both have their role.
In BT, ACs are just sucky lasers with explodable ammo.

IMHO, ballistics need to be WAY cooler (less hot) than they currently are in order to carry their ridiculously bad loadout stats.

Edited by Paigan, 03 October 2017 - 10:45 AM.

[jss78]

Paigan, on 03 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Some, IDK, 20 years ago, as a teenager or even sooner than that, I played TT and took a simple look at ballistics:
They are ridiculously heavy, rely on ammo (that can even explode), don't deal particularily high damage - and they are even quite HOT, too. Simple conclusion: every Mech with ACs sucks (in TT). Everything else is emotionally underpinned (like imagining your favorite Mech walzing in with ACs hammering the enemy and suff ).

PGI compensated it a little bit by tweaking the numbers, giving ACs screen shake, giving lasers duration, etc.
But the basic problem (of BT in general) remains: the basic stats really, really suck.

Earthsiege, for example, has much more eloborate and balanced system:
Energy weapons are good against shield, ACs are good against armor. ACs suck against shield, but once the shield is gone, no laser can ever compete with ACs. Hence both have their role.
In BT, ACs are just sucky lasers with explodable ammo.

IMHO, ballistics need to be WAY cooler (less hot) than they currently are in order to carry their ridiculously bad loadout stats.

Incidentally, hasn't HBS BattleTech actually implemented some new buffs to AC's? I hear they're very good in that game right now. (I haven't played the Beta for a while.)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Paigan, on 03 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

IMHO, ballistics need to be WAY cooler (less hot) than they currently are in order to carry their ridiculously bad loadout stats.

I'd prefer they just be lighter so that they are more useful on lighter mechs rather than them being pretty much only useful on assaults and heavies who have the tonnage to spare on more heat efficient weapons.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 October 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

I'd prefer they just be lighter so that they are more useful on lighter mechs rather than them being pretty much only useful on assaults and heavies who have the tonnage to spare on more heat efficient weapons.

There are already several canon options for that, so I'd rather add those first before messing with the weights of the existing dakka.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 03 October 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

There are already several canon options for that, so I'd rather add those first before messing with the weights of the existing dakka.

I wouldn't say there are several, there are 2 for IS and 3 for Clans and neither provide the options that heavies and assaults benefit from (UAC, LBX, RAC, and HVAC). Gauss is the same way, there is 1 Gauss that lights can use in both tech bases vs 3-5 that heavier mechs have options for.

Granted the reverse is also true, lighter mechs are better options for energy boats than assaults due to diminishing returns of heat sinks, in other words, the construction rules are borked and the entire thing needs to be redesigned.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 October 2017 - 11:13 AM.

[Bombast]

jss78, on 03 October 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Incidentally, hasn't HBS BattleTech actually implemented some new buffs to AC's? I hear they're very good in that game right now. (I haven't played the Beta for a while.)

Yup. Damage has been significantly buffed for 2s and 5s, and they cause a fair bit of 'stability damage' (Make robots fall down). The AC/5 in particular has been so buffed that people want the PPC buffed to match.

Edited by Bombast, 03 October 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Bombast, on 03 October 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Yup. Damage has been significantly buffed for 2s and 5s, and they cause a fair bit of 'stability damage' (Make robots fall down). The AC/5 in particular has been so buffed that people want the PPC buffed to match.

Impossible.

HBS BattleTech is the copy-paste version of TT with TT stats that will save the BattleTech franchise from those who sulley the name by changing TT Weapon values. If HBS had to modify TT values, then all is lost and we'll all have to shave our neckbeards and get jobs.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 October 2017 - 11:33 AM.

[FupDup]

Bombast, on 03 October 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Yup. Damage has been significantly buffed for 2s and 5s, and they cause a fair bit of 'stability damage' (Make robots fall down). The AC/5 in particular has been so buffed that people want the PPC buffed to match.

The issue with the PPC in HBS is just the horrible global heat modifier that gave the PPC the equivalent heat of about 13.5 (IIRC). I haven't played it in a while so I think they might have already toned down the heat mod a little but I'm not sure.

[MadRover]

I didn’t know Gauss rifles were underperforming. I thought 2/4 are just never used. Silly me. LGR needs a total damage buff of 10 while everything else remains untouched (maybe throw in a 2shell ammo reduction but not needed). HGR is simply impractical to consider using. It’s too heavy and eats slots for both breakfast and lunch. Don’t use HGR unless for lols