167 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

I would rather they gave them extra structure for the STs when equipped. As well as providing increased torso twist to allow for better shielding of side torsos.

Then I would remove LFE penalty.

I would also give Standard engines even more survivability by giving extra structure to all torsos. Because it's just too heavy. And only used when the slots are required or you're using something with a lot of tonnage and no where to put it all.

[Daurock]

Thoughts:

- Expensive as crap for me, since 3/4 of my IS stable would need a new engine.

- XL IS mechs become the norm. Light and Standard engines in IS mechs become nearly as rare as standard engines in clan mechs. They'd need significant buffs to remain viable. (I'd recommend a roughly 10% and 20% armor buff to all mechs using light, and std. engines, respectively)

- Should go a long way towards equalizing clan and IS balance, especially at the lighter end of the scale. Many Lighter IS mechs may need to lose their durability quirks, and IS may need to drop to 50t for scouting purposes.

- Does little to help out IS assaults. Space becomes a major IS issue once you get to 75 tons+. IS still fall behind clam assaults due mostly to heatsinks, and said space issue.

- Many clan weapons still out-shine their IS counterparts (Lasers, and gauss in particular) More work would still be needed there.

- Bottom line - Changing XL to not die on side torso loss would be most beneficial to IS mechs 65-70 tons and less, a few of which may end up needing to be toned down some. (Quirk removal) Doesn't change the assault end nearly as hard due to space constraints.

Edited by Daurock, 05 October 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

I think it would shut people up and make the continued whining that followed more laughable

[DAYLEET]

Isnt LFE build enabling with 2 less crit slot? Im pretty sure i had XL mech switch to LFE because of that. It dont make much sense to remove a XL from a mech that can field it for a LFE.

[Dogstar]

I think the real question is - why the **** haven't PGI implemented this already?

[Rovertoo]

Eh, I feel it would obsolete LFEs. Standards are hard enough to use anyways with LFEs, and thats with the penalties for ST loss on an LFE. I feel a better solution would be to make clan XLs have bigger downsides to losing a ST. Not too big though, because they are locked in most of the time.

[Khobai]

Quote

I feel a better solution would be to make clan XLs have bigger downsides to losing a ST.

um no

you cant penalize clan mechs even more when they dont even have a choice to use a different engine

the better solution is to make ISXL survive side torso destructoin

[Athom83]

Dogstar, on 05 October 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

I think the real question is - why the **** haven't PGI implemented this already?

Because of the TT rule of 3 engine critslots being destroyed means death.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rovertoo, on 05 October 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

I feel a better solution would be to make clan XLs have bigger downsides to losing a ST. Not too big though, because they are locked in most of the time.

That isn't a solution, that is yet another bandaid because whatever penalty you give to ST loss on the Clan XL still pales in comparison to death.

[Trissila]

All the 'mechs that use LFEs because they are not XL safe will use XLs instead, saving them 3~6 tons, and LFEs will become worthless.

All the 'mechs that use standards due to crit slot needs (mostly a handful of niche ballistic spam builds) will continue to use standards.

Not much will change, other than pissing off everyone that bought LFEs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

That isn't a solution, that is yet another bandaid because whatever penalty you give to ST loss on the Clan XL still pales in comparison to death.

Yeah, basically. Losing an ST is already a huge penalty because you're down half of your 'mech's equipment, usually. Short of outright killing the 'mech, there's not much else you can do to it that would discourage them from equipping XLs. The weight savings are just that good. That's why basically every IS 'mech that isn't XL safe uses LFEs, which are discount Clan XLs.

That being said, if you want to nerf Clan XLs, you're going to have to unlock the engine on Omnimechs. People don't choose Clan XL, they take what they're given.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Is this a bad time for the whole "BattleMech XLs = ST death, OmniMech XLs = ST penalty" suggestion again?

[Brain Cancer]

Things like this are basically why Clan and IS should never have been attempted as 1:1 balance in the first place. (Other than PGI wanting maximum sales).

It's like putting a T3 ship vs. a T8 one in World of Warships. There are fundamental, unfixable things between them that require turning to mixtech or worse to "fix".

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I'd rather keep the armor and structure quirks while using an LFE. Its a bit heavier than the XL but smaller. I feel that if they remove side torso loss on IS XL then the majority of IS defensive quirks will be gone, resulting in IS mechs generally being worse, especially builds that ran LFEs.

I'd choose tanking over speed, won't gain much, if any firepower as IS with XL, at least with laser and missile builds since you still won't have room for extra heatsinks to handle a hotter load of lasers.

[Tarl Cabot]

Athom83, on 05 October 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Because of the TT rule of 3 engine critslots being destroyed means death.

And you are not following.

TT uses dice to determine hit/miss AND location for each location. And MWO does not use an ACTUAL engine crit system that does damage to the engine that affects the mech. In fact, the 15HP PGI has assigned to the engine, that can be crit and totally destroyed but it does nothing to the mech. The mech is only affected when the actual location is totally destroyed. In TT, rarely would an isXL equipped mech die to the loss of all 3 engine crits in one side torso or even lose the entire ST structural points. And if they did it was due to an actual ammo explosion. But I doubt ANYONE would be happy with a fully functioning engine crit system, even if PGI was to make it robust.

And then almost everything IS is heavier, bulkier, shorter range, lighter damage, etc, etc, etc.

Where would it be make the most difference? Faction Play followed by Quickplay. That difference will not in how the games will go overall since actual communication, following directives and bringing good builds will trump just about anything, but it would allow players to build with more confidence when they do not have to worry about dying to the loss of one side torso. Doubt it would affect Competition Play much as there is no restriction on Clan or IS, but am sure there would be a couple of outliers like there is now.

cXL - Movement 20% (20% engine loss) / Heat drop from 40% to 30%
isXL - Movement 25% (25% engine loss) / Heat 40%
LFE - Movement 15% (Even though 20% engine loss-denser material) / 20% Heat

STD - Damage incoming through destroyed side torso reduces damage 2x as much as normal transfer damage. Just like the other engines, penalties/benefits take effect AFTER the damage is done.

Edit. And IF PGI attempts to bring in IS Omni with the current setup...- /shudders...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 05 October 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

And incidentally, one reason Clan XL is so durable is specifically because PGI has never actually bothered to model engine damage.

If they had, the resulting fragility would have been considerably more of a concern than the usual "nuts, lost a side" bit as we'd be seeing everyone getting potential engine kills simply from penetrating armor, rather than the current situation. Balancing from a point where we can get kills/mobility kills at the point of structure damage vs location destruction would have been a lot more even than what we have now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brain Cancer, on 05 October 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

And incidentally, one reason Clan XL is so durable is specifically because PGI has never actually bothered to model engine damage.

Except this happens to affect everyone and in turn would still keep iXLs as more fragile. Then you have the problem of death before losing even a side being a possibility which basically means structure is worthless against MGs (you think Cheetahs and Mist Lynxes are annoying now).

In the end, it comes down to the problem that a mech with an iXL simply does not survive as long as a mech with a cXL on average. Solve that problem and you solve the iXL vs cXL issue. Depending on the solution you will have to have something to deal with the other engines as well (this is the main issue with making them behave the same since you still have to solve the STD and LFE issue).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 October 2017 - 02:53 PM.

[Trissila]

Brain Cancer, on 05 October 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Things like this are basically why Clan and IS should never have been attempted as 1:1 balance in the first place. (Other than PGI wanting maximum sales).

It's like putting a T3 ship vs. a T8 one in World of Warships. There are fundamental, unfixable things between them that require turning to mixtech or worse to "fix".

Also this.

As far back as MW2: Mercs, if you wanted to maximize your potential you swapped IS equipment/weapons for Clan equipment/weapons on your IS 'mechs the moment you salvaged/purchased some. PGI insists on basing a lot of MWO on TT rules, but TT rules simply have Clan gear being outright superior to IS gear -- and that's why TT uses Battle Value in an attempt to even out force strength without neutering the 'flavor' of Clan materiel being superior quality.

[Stinger554]

Brain Cancer, on 05 October 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Things like this are basically why Clan and IS should never have been attempted as 1:1 balance in the first place. (Other than PGI wanting maximum sales).

It's like putting a T3 ship vs. a T8 one in World of Warships. There are fundamental, unfixable things between them that require turning to mixtech or worse to "fix".

Pretty much this. You cannot make Clan and IS balanced 1:1 without making their technology functionally the same and at that point just use mixtech.

[The Lighthouse]

Athom83, on 05 October 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Because of the TT rule of 3 engine critslots being destroyed means death.

As others said above already, this game hardly follows TT rules.

If '3 critslots destroyed = death' is true, then all mechs which CT are exposed are basically dead man in walking because majority of engine critslots are in.... CT.

If we follow TT rule faithfully, TTK of this game will be drastically lowered, and any mechs with some machineguns (not just those clan mechs with 6~8 machineguns) will be insanely overpowered because once CT is open and some machinegun fire for about 2 seconds will kill ANY mechs, including 100 ton Atlas (OR EVEN FASTER if gyro can be also critted)

But this does not happen in this game. You get machinegun bullets, lasers, autocannons and Gauss rifle rounds into your CT but you don't die until CT is completely destroyed. CT is already violating the 3 critslot rules, then why ST can't violate the rule as well?

Because of this, Clan XL is actually far more durable in this game than in TT. IS XL is also a bit more durable but the difference between Clan XL durability and IS XL durability is far bigger than in TT.


Finally, making IS XL as durable as Clan XL is an absolutely required for better Clan vs IS balance, but it is hardly main step; I still think lack of space is actually bigger issue, and the fact that there is no crit-splitting makes some mechs in this game cannot equip lore-based setup.

If you realize this, then you will understand why many people are calling this game being PGI's Minimally Viable Product. Then you understand why people have stopped spend money on this game.

[Willard Phule]

Making the LFE irrelevant and deviating from the accepted timeline that the "mechwarrior" lisence represents.

The whole point of clans vs inner sphere centers around technological differences. The IS bombed itself backwards in a series of conflicts know as the succession wars. The clans are the decendants of the star league defense force. They progressed technologically. Clan equipment is supposed to be lighter and take less space at the expense of higher heat...which is dealt with by lighter heat sinks. IS technology is supposed to be beginning to close the gap with the recovery of the Grey Death memory core. We're kinda at the Fedcom Civil War, so that means the production of a lot of equipment that hasn't been in production for hundreds of years and stuff that was developed to combat the clans with the technology at hand.

Get rid of that, at least have the common decency to return the lisence back to Microsoft so a competent developer can keep the franchise going.