167 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Willard Phule, on 05 October 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

The whole point of clans vs inner sphere centers around technological differences. The IS bombed itself backwards in a series of conflicts know as the succession wars. The clans are the decendants of the star league defense force. They progressed technologically. Clan equipment is supposed to be lighter and take less space at the expense of higher heat...which is dealt with by lighter heat sinks. IS technology is supposed to be beginning to close the gap with the recovery of the Grey Death memory core. We're kinda at the Fedcom Civil War, so that means the production of a lot of equipment that hasn't been in production for hundreds of years and stuff that was developed to combat the clans with the technology at hand.

So I'm curious, how do you think Clans should be reigned in then? Balancing by force size has its own special complexity that eclipses the 1:1 balance issues. You could go the WoT route but I don't know that people want to just play Clan tech at the top as that means a lot of toys are pretty much never played (and pretty much ensures comp will only ever bother with Clan).

At some point you have to accept this isn't TT and that lore has to take a backseat.

[The Lighthouse]

Willard Phule, on 05 October 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Making the LFE irrelevant and deviating from the accepted timeline that the "mechwarrior" lisence represents.

The whole point of clans vs inner sphere centers around technological differences. The IS bombed itself backwards in a series of conflicts know as the succession wars. The clans are the decendants of the star league defense force. They progressed technologically. Clan equipment is supposed to be lighter and take less space at the expense of higher heat...which is dealt with by lighter heat sinks. IS technology is supposed to be beginning to close the gap with the recovery of the Grey Death memory core. We're kinda at the Fedcom Civil War, so that means the production of a lot of equipment that hasn't been in production for hundreds of years and stuff that was developed to combat the clans with the technology at hand.

Get rid of that, at least have the common decency to return the lisence back to Microsoft so a competent developer can keep the franchise going.

None of "Mechwarrior" licensed games in past actually portrayed differences or reproduced what are in lore/TT. At best Clan stuffs have better numbers, but that's it. Believing otherwise is a delusion.

Even first Mechcommander, the most accurately-followed all of TT rules, still threw away tons of numbers of TT rules because they simply... suck for video games.

Like ballistics, for example. The numbers are so goddamn bad that you would not just want to use them at all compared to lasers and other energy weapons. TT was never balanced. Actually, TT probably has far worse balance issues than any other Battletech video games had.

A lot of Mechwarrior Online's problems are actually coming from the developers following those terrible TT values/rules.

You are asking for a competent developer. ANY competent developer sees TT rules, and those rule papers will go straight into trashcan. Other Mechwarrior games were great and fun to play because developers threw away lore/TT altogether.

[AncientRaig]

A lot of people are concerned about LFE becoming useless if IS XL got ST survivability, but lets be honest here. How many IS XL builds actually switched over to LFE when it launched? How many serious, FP meta mech builders went "Yeah, all this XL-dependent firepower that I need to be even remotely competitive with Clan mechs is nice, but ST survivability is better."? LFE has helped out a lot of my STD engine mechs, but I think I've replaced only one or two of my XL builds with LFE builds. Of those, only one build is one I actually run in FP and it's largely symmetrical enough to make surviving one ST death worth the loss of a few KPH. If IS XL got Clan XL durability with some appropriate penalty (maybe make Clan XL lose 25% speed and in-engine HS efficiency, and IS XL lose 50% speed and cooling. LFE would get Clan penalties or no penalties. I'd make that trade.), the only thing that would change is that more IS PUGs would be running XL builds. I'll laugh until I have a heart attack if anyone tries to tell me that competitive players and people in units run anything but XL on 90% of their mechs. The game would be in a much better state of balance. Sure STD and LFE wouldn't see tons of use, but that's basically true of the current gamestate anyway. They'd still have a place in builds that are low on slots, or builds that run large ballistics in their STs, but IS mechs would finally be able to TRY to compete with Clans on a light slope instead of a cliff wall.

Edited by AncientRaig, 05 October 2017 - 05:09 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 October 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

What do you feel would happen, How would things change,

Simple.

The game would be MUCH closer to being balanced.

Some of the IS armour/structure quirks would need revisiting and PGI have said they wanna reduce quirks... Yet they added a whole bunch recently. So who knows, the direction there seems to be whatever way the wind blows on the quirk area and given a lot of them make no sense...

[justcallme A S H]

AncientRaig, on 05 October 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

A lot of people are concerned about LFE becoming useless if IS XL got ST survivability, but lets be honest here. How many IS XL builds actually switched over to LFE when it launched? How many serious, FP meta mech builders went "Yeah, all this XL-dependent firepower that I need to be even remotely competitive with Clan mechs is nice, but ST survivability is better."? LFE has helped out a lot of my STD engine mechs, but I think I've replaced only one or two of my XL builds with LFE builds.

Exactly this.

I've barely removed a IS XL for LFE. But then torso twisting is OP. I can still get my IS XL mechs down below 30% regularly so it's literally a non-issue. Occasionally I do get caught out but it just reminds me to not potato.

IS ERML = godsend. Very easy to pound out the trades these days but too many players are still caught in 12 month old META and don't know how to trade properly with correct builds.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 October 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

This Topic is to Discuss what would and could happen is IS XL got ST Survivability,

=IS-XL to C-XL=
Assuming IS-XL would have the same or Similar penalties as C-XL,

=STD to LFE to XL
Assume LFE would be Viably Balance between STD and XL Engines,

What do you feel would happen, How would things change,
Would balance get Better? Do you think it will get Worse? Not change much?

Balancing would definitely become easier. Less quirk crutches for the IS side, which is excellent, cause PGI seems to love nerfing any IS quirked mech that stands out.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 October 2017 - 05:37 PM.

[FantasticMrDark]

The Lighthouse, on 05 October 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

None of "Mechwarrior" licensed games in past actually portrayed differences or reproduced what are in lore/TT. At best Clan stuffs have better numbers, but that's it. Believing otherwise is a delusion.

Even first Mechcommander, the most accurately-followed all of TT rules, still threw away tons of numbers of TT rules because they simply... suck for video games.

Like ballistics, for example. The numbers are so goddamn bad that you would not just want to use them at all compared to lasers and other energy weapons. TT was never balanced. Actually, TT probably has far worse balance issues than any other Battletech video games had.

A lot of Mechwarrior Online's problems are actually coming from the developers following those terrible TT values/rules.

You are asking for a competent developer. ANY competent developer sees TT rules, and those rule papers will go straight into trashcan. Other Mechwarrior games were great and fun to play because developers threw away lore/TT altogether.

Give them a tiny bit of credit they did have the sense to double armour and structure compared to TT.

[panzer1b]

Honestly, it would become the same situation that the LFE did towards STD engines, over 90% of mechs that used a STD or LFE would switch to XL and benefit from it with the only downside of certain builds being impossible (cant fit 20 class weapons in a ST anymore, and you can do stuff like HGR, dual uac5, dual LBX10, ect without LFE/STD). Im not saying that making IS XLs survive ST loss is entirely bad idea, but i do feel it would really invalidate alot of IS tech.

I think a better first step would be to give IS XL engines some boost to ST HP, and while we are at it, give the STD engines on both sides a massive boost to CT armor/structure (say something like ~50% armor+structure). This would actually make STD engine mechs super tanky and hard to kill completely (zombie builds become legit), but they have 0 boosts to their STs so its still possible to degun em. LFX and cXL would get 0 boosts since they are the most versatile engines with 0 real downsides (except IS being heavier but its not like we really want 100% tech parity since there is no flavor to either side at that point).

If that doesnt work, then we could try to see what IS XLs would be like without death on ST, but then there might need to be a bit of balance done to weapons to compensate for the much more firepower IS can now carry. Not that thats a bad thing, but sofar the tech balance is done fairly well (my only issue is the clan's ability to do stupid alfas like 70+), since IS tech is much more effective at dealing damage, but has less range and less raw alfa strike to compensate for that (and ofc weighs more and eats more slots). That and IS gets better ballistics (PPFLD is a huge premium), and better missiles (less spread, more dmg, and LRMs are better since no ripple fire crap like clam tech).

[Brain Cancer]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

Except this happens to affect everyone and in turn would still keep iXLs as more fragile. Then you have the problem of death before losing even a side being a possibility which basically means structure is worthless against MGs (you think Cheetahs and Mist Lynxes are annoying now).

That's why I said properly modeling damage has to mean starting from square one in a lot of ways. If there's "kill me if destroyed" equipment that can be critted to death, then you can safely reduce things like MG critpower and still have them be dangerous weapon systems, as what gets critted now has a more drastic effect. Same thing applies to actuators- we might have leg structure, but if someone's shot your hip out, you're still dragging that (somewhat intact) leg.

Right now, everything pretty much is (with ammo being a rare exception) "destroy this section to have an effect on critical equipment". If it becomes "you can damage this internal structure and possibly damage/destroy critical equipment", you've made a fundamental shift in how TTK works.

It'd be for the better, though.

Quote

In the end, it comes down to the problem that a mech with an iXL simply does not survive as long as a mech with a cXL on average. Solve that problem and you solve the iXL vs cXL issue. Depending on the solution you will have to have something to deal with the other engines as well (this is the main issue with making them behave the same since you still have to solve the STD and LFE issue).

Any solution that "fixes" ISXL will render LFE moot and in most cases, standard engines go by the wayside completely, just like they do in Clantech. It represents one of the fundamental and effectively unremovable roadblocks of tech differences in the game.

Anyone with any decent experience in TT could have pointed that out years ago, but we had to have our $500 gold packages. The two tech trees were designed to be fundamentally incompatible in terms of performance, and despite PGI's best(worst) efforts at nerfing things, there are parts like this that really can't be.

[Y E O N N E]

If IS 'Mechs could be made sufficiently cannon to offset the glass that is the XL engine, then nothing gets obsoleted.

But IS guns aren't allowed to be that dangerous, apparently.

[AncientRaig]

panzer1b, on 05 October 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Honestly, it would become the same situation that the LFE did towards STD engines, over 90% of mechs that used a STD or LFE would switch to XL and benefit from it with the only downside of certain builds being impossible (cant fit 20 class weapons in a ST anymore, and you can do stuff like HGR, dual uac5, dual LBX10, ect without LFE/STD). Im not saying that making IS XLs survive ST loss is entirely bad idea, but i do feel it would really invalidate alot of IS tech.

I think a better first step would be to give IS XL engines some boost to ST HP, and while we are at it, give the STD engines on both sides a massive boost to CT armor/structure (say something like ~50% armor+structure). This would actually make STD engine mechs super tanky and hard to kill completely (zombie builds become legit), but they have 0 boosts to their STs so its still possible to degun em. LFX and cXL would get 0 boosts since they are the most versatile engines with 0 real downsides (except IS being heavier but its not like we really want 100% tech parity since there is no flavor to either side at that point).

If that doesnt work, then we could try to see what IS XLs would be like without death on ST, but then there might need to be a bit of balance done to weapons to compensate for the much more firepower IS can now carry. Not that thats a bad thing, but sofar the tech balance is done fairly well (my only issue is the clan's ability to do stupid alfas like 70+), since IS tech is much more effective at dealing damage, but has less range and less raw alfa strike to compensate for that (and ofc weighs more and eats more slots). That and IS gets better ballistics (PPFLD is a huge premium), and better missiles (less spread, more dmg, and LRMs are better since no ripple fire crap like clam tech).

XL is the current go-to for "good builds" simply because you need the extra tonnage to be able to mount the firepower to compete with Clans. The biggest change to the tech being brought by the IS is going to be seen in PUGs where people are less experienced, or insist on bringing their STD or LFE build because "muh survivability". The simple fact is that XL is already the mandatory engine for 90% of decent IS builds. I only run STDs or LFEs on a VERY select few mechs that I've brought to FP because most mechs are not able to compete otherwise. Builds that want to boat ST ballistics will still use them, but bottom line is that very little will change besides giving the IS a chance to compete on a somewhat level playing field with the Clans and letting the potatoes run better builds easier.

Arguing that IS XL shouldn't be given ST survivability because STDs might be invalidated is like arguing that Clan XLs shouldn't be given ST survivability because it invalidates Clan STDs. Which it does. Seriously, do you think any Clan battlemechs that are actually fitted out with every bit and bob the pilot wants are going to run STDs over XLs? There's no reason for them to run STDs. Clanners can run dual 10s in each ST with XL as long as they don't want to put ammo in the STs. On the IS side we have enormous ballistics that make it impossible to ST mount anything bigger than a single AC10 with an XL. If we want to run a quad AC5 Mauler or AC20 Atlas we have to use STDs or LFEs.

Not really sure how the IS is more effective at dealing damage. Sure, we have better standard autocannons but really that's about it. Clan lasers have higher damage per tick even though they have a longer burn time, SRM damage difference is minuscule (.15 damage per missile oh no!), and nobody uses LRMs seriously (most Clan long range missile boats are running ATMs or LRM launchers big enough for it to not matter that much). Clanners can mount more weapons, with more heatsinks, at a faster speed than an IS mech of equal tonnage. Their few disadvantages: burst fire ACs, slightly worse SRM spread and slightly longer laser burn duration. Longer burn times are a small price to pay for doing more damage overall even if you both stop aiming at each other at the same time, and how many Clanners really use standard ACs? IS UACs are burst too, so it's not an advantage for either side, and LBXs have less punishing ghost heat ceilings. And slightly worse spread in exchange for SRMs weighing half what their IS counterparts weigh is barely a trade-off.

Edited by AncientRaig, 05 October 2017 - 06:57 PM.

[Trissila]

AncientRaig, on 05 October 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

A lot of people are concerned about LFE becoming useless if IS XL got ST survivability, but lets be honest here. How many IS XL builds actually switched over to LFE when it launched? How many serious, FP meta mech builders went "Yeah, all this XL-dependent firepower that I need to be even remotely competitive with Clan mechs is nice, but ST survivability is better."? LFE has helped out a lot of my STD engine mechs, but I think I've replaced only one or two of my XL builds with LFE builds. Of those, only one build is one I actually run in FP and it's largely symmetrical enough to make surviving one ST death worth the loss of a few KPH. If IS XL got Clan XL durability with some appropriate penalty (maybe make Clan XL lose 25% speed and in-engine HS efficiency, and IS XL lose 50% speed and cooling. LFE would get Clan penalties or no penalties. I'd make that trade.), the only thing that would change is that more IS PUGs would be running XL builds. I'll laugh until I have a heart attack if anyone tries to tell me that competitive players and people in units run anything but XL on 90% of their mechs. The game would be in a much better state of balance. Sure STD and LFE wouldn't see tons of use, but that's basically true of the current gamestate anyway. They'd still have a place in builds that are low on slots, or builds that run large ballistics in their STs, but IS mechs would finally be able to TRY to compete with Clans on a light slope instead of a cliff wall.

Nobody replaced isXL with LFE because nobody used isXL on 'mechs that weren't reasonably XL-safe. If the 'mech was prone to losing STs early, you just didn't put isXL on it because XL benefits didn't matter if you died super-fast. Hence, LFE didn't affect 'mechs that were already using isXL. Instead, it entirely replaced STD for all except a handful of builds that needed those two extra crits in the STs.


PGI needs to decide whether they want to be TT-based, or competitive, because they can't be both. TT is not balanced on a unit-to-unit basis, that's why BV exists. The system is flawed, sure, the numbers aren't quite right on it, but the idea behind it is what's important: mech-for-mech, clans are outright superior to IS equipment, so you make IS equipment have less 'cost' so that IS forces can field more of it to make up for the per-unit advantage that Clans have.

You see this same concept in other asymmetrically-balanced games, like the Gundam Vs. games; some units are just better than others, and those units cost more of a team's available field cost so that losing them is a bigger hit than losing one of the weaker units.

But MWO isn't like that. Both sides get 12 'mechs no matter what, and if PGI wants to keep that format, then they need to ignore TT numbers/techbase differences entirely and come up with new things. An IS light is in no way, shape, or form equivalent to a Clan heavy. They've kinda-sorta taken a step in this direction by giving IS more drop deck tonnage in FP mode, but they need to go further than that if they want to keep semi-lore tech differences in the game.

[AncientRaig]

Trissila, on 05 October 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

Nobody replaced isXL with LFE because nobody used isXL on 'mechs that weren't reasonably XL-safe. If the 'mech was prone to losing STs early, you just didn't put isXL on it because XL benefits didn't matter if you died super-fast. Hence, LFE didn't affect 'mechs that were already using isXL. Instead, it entirely replaced STD for all except a handful of builds that needed those two extra crits in the STs.


PGI needs to decide whether they want to be TT-based, or competitive, because they can't be both. TT is not balanced on a unit-to-unit basis, that's why BV exists. The system is flawed, sure, the numbers aren't quite right on it, but the idea behind it is what's important: mech-for-mech, clans are outright superior to IS equipment, so you make IS equipment have less 'cost' so that IS forces can field more of it to make up for the per-unit advantage that Clans have.

You see this same concept in other asymmetrically-balanced games, like the Gundam Vs. games; some units are just better than others, and those units cost more of a team's available field cost so that losing them is a bigger hit than losing one of the weaker units.

But MWO isn't like that. Both sides get 12 'mechs no matter what, and if PGI wants to keep that format, then they need to ignore TT numbers/techbase differences entirely and come up with new things. An IS light is in no way, shape, or form equivalent to a Clan heavy. They've kinda-sorta taken a step in this direction by giving IS more drop deck tonnage in FP mode, but they need to go further than that if they want to keep semi-lore tech differences in the game.

And most mechs that aren't IS-XL friendly aren't used. Everyone wonders why only a handful of IS mechs are considered "good" while much of the Clan line-up is considered "good". LFE helps IS viability like a bandaid helps a gunshot wound. Looks like you're doing something to help, but in reality you haven't done anything to solve the problem.

TT and lore have to be respected in some form or fashion otherwise you may as well not bother with a Battletech game. Robo Twitch Shooter 2017 with Battletech skins isn't Battletech and it isn't Mechwarrior. But unless you're playing with pre-Helm IS technology making a 1-1 TT-FPS conversion isn't going to work. Changes have to be made, but the spirit of the series has to be retained.

[MadRover]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 October 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

This Topic is to Discuss what would and could happen is IS XL got ST Survivability,

=IS-XL to C-XL=
Assuming IS-XL would have the same or Similar penalties as C-XL,

=STD to LFE to XL
Assume LFE would be Viably Balance between STD and XL Engines,

What do you feel would happen, How would things change,
Would balance get Better? Do you think it will get Worse? Not change much?

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

Lets put it this way. LFE becomes the Std and XL becomes the most used.

[Ruar]

The problem is the lack of balance between the different engine types. The fact the engines act differently between clan and IS makes the problem even worse.

Ideally engines would mirror each other between factions and then have positives and negatives between each engine type. STD having the most weight should give some kind of boost to armor and heat reduction. LFE should just have the weight savings but no boosts or penalties. XLs shouldn't die on ST loss but should have some heat penalty to compensate for the lower weight.

Each engine has a specific area where it's better and where it struggles. This allows players to match engine to build and playstyle.

[Sjorpha]

Making Clan XL die to ST loss would actually cause less problems since it wouldn't obselete any engines at all and actually bring standard engines into consideration for some clan battlemechs. It would still be superior to IS XL taking up fewer crits.

How come this alternative isn't discussed more when it's the most elegant solution design wise by far?

Edited by Sjorpha, 05 October 2017 - 08:30 PM.

[chucklesMuch]

I would applaud. (Empathise that PGI tried to balance with and have acknowledged that it failed).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brain Cancer, on 05 October 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

Any solution that "fixes" ISXL will render LFE moot and in most cases, standard engines go by the wayside completely, just like they do in Clantech.

This is false. There was a certain MW4 mod that handled this fairly well, but that would require some changes to a few things. Then of course there are Yeonne's suggestions. Both can work fairly well at making sure all engines have their usage. Of course things would be even better if we weren't bound by the stupid TT construction rules (which MW4 correctly threw away).

Brain Cancer, on 05 October 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

Right now, everything pretty much is (with ammo being a rare exception) "destroy this section to have an effect on critical equipment".

There's a reason for this, its because "dying as soon as my internals are open" sucks worse than the occasional "losing weapons as soon as my internals are open". These scenarios don't feel good for either side.

[Trissila]

Sjorpha, on 05 October 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

Making Clan XL die to ST loss would actually cause less problems since it wouldn't obselete any engines at all and actually bring standard engines into consideration for some clan battlemechs. It would still be superior to IS XL taking up fewer crits.

How come this alternative isn't discussed more when it's the most elegant solution design wise by far?

Because Omnimechs have locked engines, a number of them have sub-par or worse hitboxes/mobility, and forcing them to use engines that kill them on ST loss would make them unplayable shitmechs.

[Jun Watarase]

IS mechs becoming even more OP maybe, but not faster.

The thing about clan locked engines is that most of them are oversized. The fact that a Gargoyle can survive a side torso destruction is not an impressive achievement given that a IS mech of equal or lower tonnage with a LFE is leagues better anyway.

Here's an example : Look at the XL 375 on the timber wolf. Okay it can survive a side torso destruction. Big deal, because no IS player would put a clan XL 375 into a 75 tonner given the choice. What they would do is just swap from LFEs to XLs and mount bigger guns or large engines for more DHS. Nobody would actually try to make their mechs go insanely fast except for the lulz factor maybe.

And then you would have some IS mechs becoming even tankier than before with none of the drawbacks. I have a DRG-5N, it tanks an amazing amount of firepower, total armor + structure on the CT is like 150 for a 60 tonner. Then, i look at my mad dog/EBJ and cry.