197 replies to this topic

[Doctor Dinosaur]

Ovion, on 17 October 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

I'm still disappointed Energy Draw got dropped.
It would have helped and made people think / make a choice between DPS and alpha builds.

As to the heat chart, well you could easily adjust that to the game:
Each Heatsink provides 1 (2) Heat Capacity and 0.1 (0.2) per second heat dissipation.
Every mech will then have 10 (20) base heat capacity and 1 (2) from the 10 heat sinks from the engine.
Every second after it dissipates heat it applies cumulative effects based on how far over the mechs capacity it is:
+5 -16.2kph top speed (min 16.2kph top speed)
+8 light screenshake (like with MASC / JJ motion)
...
+30 +8% chance of shut down (40% total)

Regarding the shutdown: I don't like chances which are SO meaningful. Better have a chance to take internal damage and ramp THAT number up.
The reduced speed (+mobility!) and screen shake is nice: Alpha twice, then retreat while twisting? Better watch that heat bar then, unless you want to miss the second strike, then be unable to twist damage and back up!
Really like it.

Edited by Doctor Dinosaur, 17 October 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 October 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

"For example, comparing 3 ER Medium lasers against a single Large Pulse Laser shows a significant imbalance when compared ton-for-ton when looking at weapons of relative range and damage profiles."

I'd rather have 3 LPL than 6 ERML personally.

But then you have a clue, as do most of the people that understand the weapons in this game.

Sadly this game is developed by spread sheet warrior

[Volkodav]

Sereglach, on 16 October 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

2. Lasers are all the Same: In fact some of the solutions presented to the Alpha Issue revolve around the fact that all of the lasers are just the same "Laser Vomit Alpha" weapons regardless of type; and it's just a matter of laser duration. However, one solution to the laser issue involve making actual DPS pulse lasers with drastically decreased cooldown, heat, and damage to make truly superior DPS weapons that put ZERO emphasis on Alpha potential and rest solely on DPS strength. Then drastically widen the gaps between standard, er, and heavy lasers to further emphasize their strengths and weaknesses. That would help give players an actual choice in gameplay styles for the most common class of weapon in the game. Actual differentiation in Laser classes that promote real choice instead of "What's the biggest Alpha I can get?" would go a long way towards fixing this issue.

Something interesting offer.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I will add a "Thanks for Listening" to the mix as well. it is a nice change to see that PGI is actually listening to what we are saying and making adjustments accordingly.

However, what I don't understand is why you guys seem to think the game is so broken that it needs drastic changes to basic game play mechanics like this. I have been playing and enjoying the game since closed beta, enough that I spend $200-$300 per year on the game buying mech packs and stuff and if the game play was broken I wouldn't be doing that.

Also the major problems that hold MWO back from becoming great aren't its basic game play, rather it has to do with things such as limited map selection, fairly generic game modes, map voting, poor faction warfare implementation, lack of depth of game play, etc. Point I am making here is that in general the core mechanics of gameplay, without all these crazy balancing passes, is fun so why spend so much time and effort on them when the issues are elsewhere?

[Cypherdrene]

Sereglach, on 16 October 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

2. Lasers are all the Same: In fact some of the solutions presented to the Alpha Issue revolve around the fact that all of the lasers are just the same "Laser Vomit Alpha" weapons regardless of type; and it's just a matter of laser duration. However, one solution to the laser issue involve making actual DPS pulse lasers with drastically decreased cooldown, heat, and damage to make truly superior DPS weapons that put ZERO emphasis on Alpha potential and rest solely on DPS strength. Then drastically widen the gaps between standard, er, and heavy lasers to further emphasize their strengths and weaknesses. That would help give players an actual choice in gameplay styles for the most common class of weapon in the game. Actual differentiation in Laser classes that promote real choice instead of "What's the biggest Alpha I can get?" would go a long way towards fixing this issue.

This makes so much freaking sense, I'd love to have a true laser brawler. My dakka builds rip every energy-centric build to shreds in no time and even VS heavier mechs it's not much of an issue, now, if things were more like the above, energy builds could actually stand (tough not come out on top) againts ballistics in a brawl. Piloting skills would then mean something... and perhaps I'd dust off those energy only mechs and omnipods

[Password1234]

"Thanks alot devs for being a bit more reasonable"
I'm not so sure 'reasonable ' applies here. There was a huge outcry from pretty much everyone because they were doing something that was completely illogical. They caved under the pressure and canceled orders.
I'm not saying listening to the masses is always a good idea(i've seen some of your opinions and they are often horrible), but this time they did the right thing.
I'm with bud on this though, they should release some of the 'top secret' info and let us see what they see. They should also start considering some of the suggestion of the smarter\top players. (solahmas skill tree anyone???)
Balance from the top down, use your player base input(once again to a certain extent and from the people who have a clue)
This random nerf nonsense needs to stop.
When you try to implement ridiculous stuff and backpedal because we call b.s and have pages and pages of outcry\whining\and hate mail, it makes you look bad. It makes people quit. It makes newer players less likely to play or stay. It makes old players not likely to come back.
Some of us like this game and would love to see it prosper and you make money.,however, with things like this happening your losing current players, old players, New players and money out of your pockets.
Get on the same pages as your players and straighten **** out.
/rant

Edited by Password1234, 17 October 2017 - 10:42 AM.

[John McHobo]

Neato, thanks for listening in and providing your thoughts behind the decision.

[Gas Guzzler]

Stinger554, on 17 October 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

Then perhaps you should have stated that first. Neither what makes practical sense? Are you talking about the comparison? If so FYI neither is not the correct word to use.

That's where I was going with this:

Gas Guzzler, on 16 October 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

No good builds incorporate 3 ER ML or a single LPL.

And in terms of 3 ERML or a single LPL, neither make practical sense.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 October 2017 - 09:39 AM.

[HGAK47]

Credit where credit is due -

PGI changed the arms on the Nightstar after a lot of community feedback (Thumbs up PGI)

PGI scaled back on the nerfs a bit and it seems they actually understand the reasoning for the communty outcry - so again thumbs up.

P.S
I prefer the lower slant arms on the Nightstar in terms of the asthetics and asthetics alone but the more horizontal ones will be much much better to use in game. We didnt need another King Crab

Now do I pick up the Nightstar pack with the reinforcements

[LORD ORION]

Clan alpha problem can be fixed in 2 seconds by limiting to 4 medium weapons to ghost heat trigger.

Breaks the more notorious vomit builds that mount 2 large and 6 mediums.
Breaks the 9 medium pulse builds by changing 6+3 firing cycle to 4+4.

Sure there are a few clan lights and mediums that run 5-6 medium weapons... don't worry, they have options.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Heat Effects Table
Heat Points Effects
30 Auto shut down
28 Ammo explosion on a 8+
26 Shut down on a 10+
25 -5 MP
24 +4 to hit
23 Ammo explosion on a 6+
22 Shut down on a 8+
20 -4 MP
19 Ammo explosion on a 4+
18 Shut down on a 6+
17 +3 to hit
15 -3 MP
14 Shut down on a 4+
13 +2 to hit
10 -2 MP
8 +1 to hit
5 -1 MP

In MWO terms, you translate that. -X MP becomes a % of lost speed. +X to hit becomes more difficult maneuvering of crosshairs (so it's literally harder to hit) or even gradual crosshair jitter. Shutdown, we can skip until 100%. Random "kill me" results at 50% heat is stupid in MWO. Ammo explosion becomes gradually increasing doses of ammo damage to random bins, with the usual 10% of detonation if destroyed- but it's much more likely high heat will just degrade your ammo count than blow you to bits.

+100% heat can work as usual- shutdown, or take increasingly hideous amounts of override damage to structure.

[Vlad Striker]

There is one thing do not accounting - 5 sec cooldown presumes good sniping abilities of the player because costs of miss becomes very high. So how much people will leave game after patch?

[SoulRipp]

Thanks for not nerfing that much..

But would like to have the normal cooldowns back before the patch goes live.


I do have an idea of the high alpha's..

Why not combine all weapons when you alpha fire that It makes ghost heat?

Like say..

Now when you fire

-(IS) Firing 6 medium + 3 large lasers = No ghost heat.
-(Clan) Firing 6 ER Mediums + 2 large lasers = No ghost heat.

What if you lower the amount of weapons that create ghost heat + combining the amount of different weapons to create ghost heat?

Let's say..

-(IS) Firing 4 Mediums +2 Large laser = No ghost heat
-(Clan) Firing 4 ER Mediums + 1 Large laser = No ghost heat
-(Clan) Firing 2 Heavy Mediums + 1 Large Laser = Ghost heat

It's just an idea, That way you don't have to touch the cooldown or nerf it every time just so people won't boat so much, instead they'd start thinking how to use there laser high alpha boating and set up there weapon groups more.

Either way, the light pilots won't get hit that much, cause they can only carry so much, and the IS and Clan mechs that are made for laser boating won't get that much of a hit Ither, they just need to redo there weapon grouping if you do want to boat so much lasers and they still just can't fire all of them at the same time.

My opinion, going this rout is a win - win for both sides, the heavy laser boating will keep there cooldown, and the people that don't like the laser boating will know that the laser boaters won't be able to high alpha strike any more.

Edited by SoulRipp, 17 October 2017 - 10:50 AM.

[Kabaak]

Perhaps the balance isn't in the weapons themselves. I say it's time to release Reactive and Reflective armor variants. That was the Inner Sphere solution to this problem in the lore, correct? Of course, it's been a while since I've brushed up on it. You could easily reduce damage on the receiving mech by 20% for laser vomit. It might even encourage mixed loads because you don't know what's going to be effective...Thoughts??

[ShooteyMcShooterson]

Yes, introduce ghost heat for boated combinations of lasers that don't get the heat penalty right now. If firing more than 6 medium class lasers triggers ghost heat, then adding any additional laser from any size class on top of that 6 should trigger ghost heat.

Like if a player fires 6 Clan MPL and 2 HML, which has 44.5 non-ghosted heat, there is a massive ghost heat spike that will shut the mech down.

But if a player fires 6 Clan ERML and 2 HLL, a combination which has 69.8 non-ghosted heat, there is no ghost heat penalty, and therefore the mech will be subject to significantly less overall heat, even though the mech just fired off lasers producing almost 60% more heat..

It doesn't even begin to make sense that a mech can't fire weapons that nominally generate 44.5 heat , but can fire weapons generating 69.8 heat.

If a combination of lasers creating 44.5 heat almost kills the mech, then firing lasers which generate even more heat should yield even more self inflicted damage.

[Reno Blade]

thank you for this change.
Great to see you listening to the player base by tuning the changes with smaller increments.
Looking forward to the complete balancing pass later...

I would like to note a balancing post i did earlier which includes all energy weapons.
Maybe the direction might be helpful for some...

https://mwomercs.com...ng-3060-weapons
Here is my list of suggested changes (unchanged from the linked post).

Main limit is the longer beam instead of longer cooldowns, to make the weapon system less "easy" to use, but not useless in smaller numbers (by too long cooldowns).
Also some damage and heat reductions overall and very fast Pulse lasers.

SL 2.0s cd, 1.0s beam - 3dmg, 1.6 heat
erSL 2.2s cd, 1.2s beam - 3dmg, 2.5 heat
ML 2.8s cd, 1.2s beam - 5dmg, 3.5 heat
erML 3.2s cd, 1.4s beam - 5dmg, 4.2 heat
LL 3.6s cd, 1.4s beam - 8dmg, 6.0 heat
erLL 4.0s cd, 1.6s beam - 8dmg, 7.0 heat

cerSL 3.0s cd, 1.2s beam - 4dmg, 2.8 heat
cerML 3.5s cd, 1.4s beam - 6dmg, 5 heat
cerLL 4.0s cd, 1.6s beam - 10dmg, 8.5 heat

cHSL 4.0s cd, 1.5s beam - 6dmg, 4 heat
cHML 4.5s cd, 1.7s beam - 10dmg, 7 heat
cHLL 5.0s cd, 1.9s beam - 16dmg, 13 heat

SP, 0.9s cd, 0.5s beam - 1.4dmg, 0.8 heat
MP 1.2s cd, 0.6s beam - 2.8dmg, 1.2 heat
LP 1.5s cd, 0.7s beam - 4.5dmg, 1.5 heat

cSP 0.9s cd, 0.5s beam - 1.4dmg, 0.9 heat
cMP 1.1s cd, 0.7s beam - 2.8dmg, 2.0 heat
cLP 1.3s cd, 0.9s beam - 4.5dmg, 3.3 heat

[Chester Rico]

So why the hell nerf Artemis? Do they really think brawling is OP?

[Ovion]

Brain Cancer, on 17 October 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

In MWO terms, you translate that. -X MP becomes a % of lost speed. +X to hit becomes more difficult maneuvering of crosshairs (so it's literally harder to hit) or even gradual crosshair jitter. Shutdown, we can skip until 100%. Random "kill me" results at 50% heat is stupid in MWO. Ammo explosion becomes gradually increasing doses of ammo damage to random bins, with the usual 10% of detonation if destroyed- but it's much more likely high heat will just degrade your ammo count than blow you to bits.

+100% heat can work as usual- shutdown, or take increasingly hideous amounts of override damage to structure.

That thing someone already pointed out and made a chart for?

[Grus]

Big Tin Man, on 16 October 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

Thanks for backing off the nerf hammer. Nerfs are needed to laser vomit, but I think the high alpha heavy clan lasers are the biggest offenders. 7 energy hardpoints with that ability to spew out an 80+ point alpha and then hide and cool... that ain't right.

Also, my grasshopper thanks you.

if you know the weakness of the build then why are you not exploiting said drawback? Flamers and your flavor of brawler, done.

Clan is only u seing laser vomit because we don't have any other build that's as good right now... change our Ac's to a single round instead of a stream of bullets and you'll see a big shift.

[SoulRipp]

Grus, on 17 October 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

if you know the weakness of the build then why are you not exploiting said drawback? Flamers and your flavor of brawler, done.

Clan is only u seing laser vomit because we don't have any other build that's as good right now... change our Ac's to a single round instead of a stream of bullets and you'll see a big shift.

Ow yes please, Give the regular Clan AC a Single round, instead of Burst!