197 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 17 October 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

not that nice due to duration of burn and that extra damage goes into a shield arm...

IS (ER)ML DPS = 5 damage / 0.9s duration = 5.56 DPS (5.55 recurring)
Clan ERML DPS = 7 damage / 1.25s duration = 5.6 DPS (5.04 damage in 0.9s)

So, for the same duration of the IS (ER)ML, the Clan ERML does slightly more damage.

[Edit] No, Jay, you derp. You forgot to include the 0.9s CERML damage!) [/Edit]

Grus, on 17 October 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

omg duel rac5 deathstrike... yes please. Or duel ac20 that dosnt spread over 1/4 of the mech. Cooler balistics...

7 slot Endo & FF, deathless XLs, lighter & smaller lasers, CERPPCS and 2 slot DHS? HECK YEAH!

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 17 October 2017 - 03:22 PM.

[Grus]

Fart Huffer, on 17 October 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

maybe "laser vomit" wouldn't be such a problem if GR didnt have some infernal non canon charge up time, if we had heavy rockets and a few other things. I have to say this seems like more of a case of "some thing works, nerf it" than "it actually needs to be fixed" however I will say you guys pretty much screwed the IS from the get go.

this♤ for example, you would see a HUGE meta change if that were the case. Add to this if you wanted to keep a "flavor" from is to clan; IS: increase charge time by .25 sec. Now remove explosion damage unless wepon is charged.
Clan: no charge time. Increse cool down by 1.5 seconds. Weapon will explode only if off cool down (charging back up)

Or swap these depending.

[Grus]

dr3dnought, on 17 October 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Just give clans the choice of mounting IS ACs and see if they'd take them. Bigger, heavier, shorter range.



IS have to pay for upgrades (endo, ferro, xl) that makes the costs the same and the upgrades are only half as good.


An AC20/SRM brawler with flamers will probably take at least 2 laser vomit alphas while closing to brawling range, it will be lucky to have not lost some of it's firepower. If the laser vomit doesn't duck back into cover the brawler can start to put some DPS onto it while closing to flamer range, taking another alpha in the process and probably losing a side torso. Whats left of the mech is finished off by one last alpha before the flamers have a chance to do anything.

1st point; yes please, quad ac10 kdk3 with no worries of overheating I'll take it.

2nd point; considering how much you get out of those upgrades that's arguable.

3rd point; have you not seen the 12man Cyclops drops that just murder?

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 17 October 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

IS (ER)ML DPS = 5 damage / 0.9s duration = 5.56 DPS (5.55 recurring)
Clan ERML DPS = 7 damage / 1.25s duration = 5.6 DPS (5.04 damage in 0.9s)

So, for the same duration of the IS (ER)ML, the Clan ERML does slightly more damage.

[Edit] No, Jay, you derp. You forgot to include the 0.9s CERML damage!) [/Edit]


7 slot Endo & FF, deathless XLs, lighter & smaller lasers, CERPPCS and 2 slot DHS? HECK YEAH!

that .09 means **** all if I can fire just as much or as fast as the other guy. Trigger pull to trigger pull is can and will out shoot you. If my ebon jag with a 72pnt alpha can only shoot twice before shut down and the Is guy with a 60pnt alpha can fire 2 time per my 1 shot he will win.

(Dissclaimer; not counting coolshot and I run with override on)

[6r33dy]

Grus, on 17 October 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

1st point; yes please, quad ac10 kdk3 with no worries of overheating I'll take it.

I do wonder how you're going to fit 4 of AC10, which is 7 critslot weapon, into kdk3.

[The Ghost Walker]

Gasoline, on 17 October 2017 - 03:14 AM, said:

This is actually what a lot of people tried to convince PGI to do since CBT. The whole system of inflatious amounts of heat led to things like ghost heat, energy draw and the little band aids we so much loved to hate. Basically PGI tried to insist on their approach of giving the player tremendous amounts of heat to play with and then punishing the player for using it.

I would even go so far as to say if a mech stays overheated for longer than 10 seconds, it should explode the reactor.



Let's not make it too convoluted, shall we? I'm all for staying true to the original Battletech, but not everything translates well into a FPS. Random dice rolls deciding games is nothing we should aim for.

MWO reminds me significantly of Solaris rules for CBT. 2.5 second turns, heat scale with a x4 multiplier. Maybe if we recognize that this won't play exactly like CBT (ie MGs do 4 shots/10 seconds instead of 1) that we can find some parity.
Restore ranges and damage to CBT, allow for a "beyond effective range" adjustment and let the basics of the old game handle the rest.
I mean 30+ years on we're still playing games based off those original rules.
What would I know, though just an old mech jock who remembers when Black Widow and Foxs Teeth were new in the game stores.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 17 October 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

that .09 means **** all if I can fire just as much or as fast as the other guy. Trigger pull to trigger pull is can and will out shoot you. If my ebon jag with a 72pnt alpha can only shoot twice before shut down and the Is guy with a 60pnt alpha can fire 2 time per my 1 shot he will win.

Trigger pull for trigger pull *at the same damage* Clan will be able to fire more often, due to better cooling.

The best match I can get with range, damage & duration profiles is;
WHM with 3x LL, 5x ERML, 325 LFE, 18 DHS = 52 damage, 360m optimal range, 1.1s duration
EBJ with 2x LPL, 4x ERML, 25 DHS = 52 damage, 400m optimal range, 1.25s duration

Have a look at how they compare here

[A Hobo with a Shotgun]

You Guys @ PGI realize that you can "nerf" something by buffing other things ?

it´s called abstract thinking, you should look into this concept, it can be really mind blowing

[KrustyW0LF]

Thank you for listening to the players.

I am a noob but I have played Battletech since the RPG and board game. I have played every computer game made for it and read all the (original) books. Energy boats have ALWAYS been a major part of the game. I understand the need for balance and to give equal credence to the various types of weapons. But the laser nerfs were really just too much at one time and created an unrealistic scenario where ML's were cooling down slower than their larger brethren. Balance may be needed and I am glad you decided to make the changes smaller and look further into the matter rather than heavy hand it without looking at the whole picture and the relative stats compared to its larger (and smaller) brethren.

Good Job.

[Ober Affengeil]

Sir Maverick, on 16 October 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Wow.... IS uses Energy-Vormits.... and u nerf CLAN-Lasers.....

IS is overpowered in Scouting.... You decrease the Tonnage of Clans....

IS has 20 Tonns/Player more Dropweight in FP.....

What´s next?

If PGI don´t want Clan-Player..... WTF do PGI SELL IT?????

This right here, folks. Quit your IS whining.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Jay Leon Hart, on 17 October 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

Have a look at how they compare here

This nifty tool makes reading through 9 pages of posts worth it!

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 17 October 2017 - 05:48 PM.

[dr3dnought]

Grus, on 17 October 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

1st point; yes please, quad ac10 kdk3 with no worries of overheating I'll take it.

2nd point; considering how much you get out of those upgrades that's arguable.

3rd point; have you not seen the 12man Cyclops drops that just murder?

1. You can't sorry. Would you like quad 5's? Or use a standard engine and take 2xAC10 and 2xAC5 for 40 tons so you'll have to compromise speed or ammo.

2. Make the argument then because I don't see it. IS endosteel uses twice the slots for the same weight saving. IS ferro uses twice the slots for LESS weight saving. And then IS has to fit bigger weapons and heat sinks into those fewer slots. IS XL side torso death vs C XL side torso survival. LFE has the same survival as C XL for more weight. IS DHS take up 3 slots to Clan's 2 and (if I'm not mistaken) aren't as effective.

3. Yes, as a Clan pug, so any IS 12-man is devastating. I'll take your word for it that 12-man cyclops murders 12-man clan laser vomit of similar weight. But this announcement/thread is not just about FW

EDIT: Forgot about DHS

Edited by dr3dnought, 17 October 2017 - 08:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Jay Leon Hart, on 17 October 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

Trigger pull for trigger pull *at the same damage* Clan will be able to fire more often, due to better cooling.

The best match I can get with range, damage & duration profiles is;
WHM with 3x LL, 5x ERML, 325 LFE, 18 DHS = 52 damage, 360m optimal range, 1.1s duration
EBJ with 2x LPL, 4x ERML, 25 DHS = 52 damage, 400m optimal range, 1.25s duration

Have a look at how they compare here

And that's under-gunned for the Clan 'Mech. EBJ would either be running HLL or one more cERML in there for a poke build.

[Troa Barton]

I'm happy to see you guys back off the nerf hammer, still upset that you're nerfing the Annihilator however..

That aside for now laser builds for clan is where I see the flavor of the clans. This is where they shine as they are fragile, agile, but can deliver high damage with low sustain. This is opposing the flavor of IS which is tanky, brawly, sustain based, ballistic, missile builds. To address balance in my opinion would be to make the strengths that IS has more apparent.

The increase of mobility in 100 ton assaults is a step in the right direction as lets face it the 100 ton class is definately in the IS' pocket at least potentially. This is why I am against the nerf to the Annihilator's armor as this only makes the problem worse.
There are a lot of IS assaults that just aren't tanky enough to be viable in today's meta. Mechs like the Stalker, the Awesome, Mauler, the Battlemaster, and several variants of the Atlas to name a few.
Another issue is one of viable weapon choices for energy based mechs again to use the stalker as an example IS energy builds do not stand on even ground with clan laser builds nor do I think they should. To compensate and maintain a difference in flavor what I would suggest is to bolster IS energy use and close the gap in balance would be to reduce the heat from IS PPC's. Mechs like the BattleMaster, Stalker, Banshee, Awesome, they need an answer to clan energy builds. Along with making them tankier give them options that energy only IS mechs can use.
Another change to help close this gap would be to also decrease the heat from IS close range weapons again the strengths of each side are brawling and sustain VS Alpha and range. As it is now it's a little too close in effective damage per heat generated when the two side meet. The difference is that the clan mech already got a shot off as you approached.

So in short decrease heat from IS close range weapons.
Decrease heat from all IS PPC's so that IS has an alternative answer at range and to buff IS energy only variants, however maintain the high heat spike when used with a gauss rifle or in group fire. (Again promote sustained fire over burst for IS.)
Remove the minimum range from light PPCs and remove the anti ECM ability from it as well.
Make all of the IS mechs tankier in order to survive the approach and to promote getting close or to sustain fire.

This is coming from someone who likes both clan and IS and plays every class and weapon configuration. I like that there is variation in flavor and playstyle between clan and IS and I think that needs to be maintained. I think that Assaults don't feel like assaults anymore but rather lumbering heavies and need to have more armor and more effective weaponry.

[Mcgral18]

78star, on 17 October 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

If IS wants our mechs to be equal, then make our mechs not a ton more expensive!

They're the same price
Don't believe me? Go build a Sphere mech with the same equipment as a Clam mech

Only, you don't need to buy the STD engine they often come with, or the DHS, or the Endo (Clam Battlemech aside)
They come pre-equipped. Fancy that

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Kabaak, on 17 October 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Perhaps the balance isn't in the weapons themselves. I say it's time to release Reactive and Reflective armor variants. That was the Inner Sphere solution to this problem in the lore, correct? Of course, it's been a while since I've brushed up on it. You could easily reduce damage on the receiving mech by 20% for laser vomit. It might even encourage mixed loads because you don't know what's going to be effective...Thoughts??

+1
If I could choose between "balanced", "anti-energy", "anti-ballistic" or "anti-missile" armors... instead of complaining about weapon unbalance I'd just equip the kind of armor that protects me against the type of weapon that kills me the most and be done with it.
All weapons would be balanced against the default "balanced" armor, and players who believe their weapon class doesn't need a balance patch would have nothing to worry about letting me choose which kind of armor I need to equip to balance things back for myself.
And yes, as a bonus that would favor adaptive hybrid builds over specialized builds.

[NocturnalBeast]

Oberfuhrer, on 17 October 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

This right here, folks. Quit your IS whining.

IS should not be whining. I am happy with the compromise, my Grasshopper will be mostly unmolested and people who want the Assassin nerfed are just bad players. Clans are good too now, they can win if they take good builds and play smart. Watch out for my Assassin though, because House Marik will take your bacon and your whiskey!

[Gasoline]

The Ghost Walker, on 17 October 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

MWO reminds me significantly of Solaris rules for CBT. 2.5 second turns, heat scale with a x4 multiplier. Maybe if we recognize that this won't play exactly like CBT (ie MGs do 4 shots/10 seconds instead of 1) that we can find some parity.
Restore ranges and damage to CBT, allow for a "beyond effective range" adjustment and let the basics of the old game handle the rest.
I mean 30+ years on we're still playing games based off those original rules.
What would I know, though just an old mech jock who remembers when Black Widow and Foxs Teeth were new in the game stores.

As I mentioned, I'm all for staying true to the original. While I would love a game that uses more of it's origins, some things just don't translate well from a boardgame to a FPS. I would love for PGI to do a hardlimit for maximum heat of 30-35. I would even support damage to the mech as soon as you hit 25-30 respectively. That would also mean true DHS and PGI could drop ghost heat and all that jazz.

Let's just do a little theorycrafting.

Heat slows movement: It sounds really neat, but what would be the consequence? People would stop nascaring for sure, but we would have a lot more static, poking gameplay. It's too easy to work around and adapt. Again light mechs would really suffer and just make them easy targets as soon as they fire.

Aim penalties: This we can totally agree upon. If your heat rises beyond tolerable levels (eg 75% or some such) your HUD begins to flicker and fade. The crosshair shakes increasingly the more heat is produced.

Ammo explosion chances: This is a difficult one. During overheat yes. Random chance when at 50% heat no thanks. I will elaborate more on why a bit later.

Random shutdown chances: No thanks.

The reason why I'm so against those random chances is that it's a dice roll that has a large impact on gameplay. Let's say your assault is pushing and trying to suppress the enemy, suddenly half his mech explodes because some random chance says: sorry sir, but your ammo just decided to explode. Or he shuts down in the middle of the push? Fun? No. It would just lead to players being even more afraid to push because their mech could explode or shut down randomly.

Also it would again benefit clans more than IS, because clan mechs have CASE by default, IS has to waste another half a ton or risk even more damage.

I'm not even talking about the competitive side of the game here.

Edited by Gasoline, 17 October 2017 - 10:05 PM.

[Smokeviper]

If people are worried about laser vomit pinpoint damage maybe PGI should look at reticle shake and bob as a consequence for mech movement. It was in the original board game of sorts, the faster you moved the more difficult it was to target. As it stands now Mechs are sort of all snipers no matter how fast your moving. If you want to dump all that 90 point alpha into one location with rock steady accuracy your going to have to stand still and be a target the entire weapon duration to do it. It wouldn't have to be much, maybe even making it worse on starting movement. In addition as discussed above having scaling consequence for heat levels would be a good thing rather than just a generic "mech shuts down here" threshold.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 October 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

And that's under-gunned for the Clan 'Mech. EBJ would either be running HLL or one more cERML in there for a poke build.

Oh I know, I was trying to balance it best I could, especially duration. One less thing people can point at and say why it's not a balanced comparison.

The main point was, with equal firepower, Clan 'mechs run cooler.