197 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Nightbird, on 16 October 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

I assume you mean the medium lasers?

I would prefer not seeing more of a deviation from lore damage and heat values. If the lore values are terrible, drastically decrease cooldown to create a DPS weapon. If the lore values are too good, increase cooldown. This does mean some weapon damages would get nerfed, such as a Large Laser only doing 8 damage for 8 heat, but just make duration .6 seconds and cooldown 1.5 seconds and it becomes an AC5 that uses heat instead of ammo. Get rid of ghost heat. Voila, something different.

Changing duration is also an option, though it should be put under more scrutiny than cool-down because the impact of an increase or decrease reduces above and below certain points (between 0.8 and 1.5 s is where you'll see the greatest return).

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 16 October 2017 - 06:44 PM.

[Stitchedup]

What is problem with laser vomit anyway, the majortiy of mechs have and in many cases, only have energy hard points to use, why not just buff ballistic and see what happens. Lasers are the core weapon of the game. There is always going to be a meta in the game, why keep changing the rules every time someone doesn't like something.

[Sir Maverick]

Wow.... IS uses Energy-Vormits.... and u nerf CLAN-Lasers.....

IS is overpowered in Scouting.... You decrease the Tonnage of Clans....

IS has 20 Tonns/Player more Dropweight in FP.....

What´s next?

If PGI don´t want Clan-Player..... WTF do PGI SELL IT?????

[Gas Guzzler]

Sir Maverick, on 16 October 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Wow.... IS uses Energy-Vormits.... and u nerf CLAN-Lasers.....

IS is overpowered in Scouting.... You decrease the Tonnage of Clans....

IS has 20 Tonns/Player more Dropweight in FP.....

What´s next?

If PGI don´t want Clan-Player..... WTF do PGI SELL IT?????

LOL @ this guy

[naterist]

Just nerf heat gen, cool run, and heat containment skill nodes. Instant dps loss due to loss in heat management on 80pnt alphas, or lowering alpha size for manageable heat.

[Kuaron]

Paul Inouye, on 16 October 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

While we are still aiming to address Medium Laser balance in this patch, the changes you’ll see in the October patch are with a much smaller delta than previously outlined in the original Patch Notes. The changes do still impact Cooldown. When evaluating these changes however, it should be noted that Duration should always be kept in mind when doing any calculations on the changes proposed.

Well, thank you for listening.
But of both you are still nerfing the wrong parameter. I mean:

• Cooldown nerf = nerfs backup lasers on cold builds, barely touches boated lasers on hot builds
  
• Duration nerf = nerfs lasers

Isn't this obvious?


An exception would be heavy MLs where duration is about the same throughout the entire heavy lasers family and which are already rather good backup weapons. There a cooldown nerf would still be reasonable.

Could you drop a few words on this decision?

Edit:
And I wouldn't even mind seeing a bigger nerf/rebalancing of the laser families (to put standard and pulse lasers further apart), it just should be the appropriate parameters that are getting changed!

Edited by Kuaron, 17 October 2017 - 09:32 AM.

[AncientRaig]

While I'm definitely glad you guys listened to our feedback, I'm still not sure I feel comfortable with medium lasers having longer cooldowns than large lasers. The cooldown on the C-ERML already makes it next to useless in any role outside long range poke and hide, and increasing the cooldown of medium lasers is only going to further strengthen this playstyle by way of making it the only viable way to use the weapon.

[The Mysterious Fox]

now that you're no longer nerfing brawling into the ground, the world will know the fear of micro lasers!

That aside, there needs to be a serious rethink of the methodology by your game designers, its still kind of crazy that large lasers are cycling faster than smaller lasers but at least the already nerfed small lasers can be marginally viable again instead of a EFF-U NO FUN FOR YOU type of blanket nerf.

#purplelasers

Edited by The Mysterious Fox, 16 October 2017 - 08:22 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

AncientRaig, on 16 October 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

The cooldown on the C-ERML already makes it next to useless in any role outside long range poke and hide, and increasing the cooldown of medium lasers is only going to further strengthen this playstyle by way of making it the only viable way to use the weapon.

PGI says that massed Lasers are meant for large alphas, and that's what they want them to be used for. We might have to just deal with it.

[stealthraccoon]

So my reliance on PPC’s and small lasers is now justified...

[Stinger554]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 October 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

6ERML is an unacceptable loadout for a heavy, yet 3 LL/LPL is commonly used, or 5 ER LL.

Again you are not using the 3 ERML to a single LPL that PGI is... comparing 6 ERML to 3 LPL is obviously not going to make sense when you'd need to be comparing 9 ERML to 3LPL...


But yes overall comparing ERML to LPL in a 3 to 1 ratio is in a vacuum because there are very few mechs that can mount ERML in that ratio to LPL. In fact the only mechs that come to mind are the Top Dog and that black knight that has 9 energy hardpoints and with both of them you'll run out of crit space long before tonnage so it's not efficient.

p.s I'm not the one balancing just trying to understand PGI's weird thoughts on the matter. Which is why I'm emphasizing that 3 to 1 thing as you've not been following it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Stinger554, on 16 October 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

Again you are not using the 3 ERML to a single LPL that PGI is... comparing 6 ERML to 3 LPL is obviously not going to make sense when you'd need to be comparing 9 ERML to 3LPL...


But yes overall comparing ERML to LPL in a 3 to 1 ratio is in a vacuum because there are very few mechs that can mount ERML in that ratio to LPL. In fact the only mechs that come to mind are the Top Dog and that black knight that has 9 energy hardpoints and with both of them you'll run out of crit space long before tonnage so it's not efficient.

p.s I'm not the one balancing just trying to understand PGI's weird thoughts on the matter. Which is why I'm emphasizing that 3 to 1 thing as you've not been following it.

Dude.... my point was that 3 ERML to 1 LPL is not a valid comparison, because neither makes practical sense.

Comparing spread sheet numbers on 3 ERML vs 1 LPL is not how you arrive at balance.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 October 2017 - 09:02 PM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 October 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

Dude.... my point was that 3 ERML to 1 LPL is not a valid comparison, because neither makes practical sense.

Comparing spread sheet numbers on 3 ERML vs 1 LPL is not how you arrive at balance.

The funny thing is that the sheet numbers actually favor the LPL a bit in every single aspect except weight and alpha strike damage. The LPL wins on heat, firing rate, duration, hardpoints, critslots, and range (although the range is small enough to ignore).

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 16 October 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

The funny thing is that the sheet numbers actually favor the LPL a bit in every single aspect except weight and alpha strike damage. The LPL wins on heat, firing rate, duration, hardpoints, critslots, and range (although the range is small enough to ignore).

That's what I mean, it all depends on what column in the spread sheet you put more weight on, and that doesn't even take into account how those values work into the grand scheme of things.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Mcgral18, on 16 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

The Mauler and GHopper are the last 2 in the Orange
4 GHopper and 8 Mauler
So, last entry in Orange

https://i.imgur.com/3eb4XOn.png?1

4 out of 192 heavies and somehow, someway PGI singled the grasshopper to be hit by The Nerf Bat?

El Bandito, on 16 October 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

I'm curious. Just how was GHR-5P's energy range nerf relevant to the laser cooldown nerf in the first place?

I'd like to know too because

THIS

Paul Inouye, on 16 October 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

The Grasshopper quirk changes...

The changes to the GHR-5H, GHR-5HC and GHR-5P were being made in anticipation of the original, global Energy change originally outlined the Patch Notes. As a result of the adjustments outlined above, we will not be going forward with those Grasshopper Quirk changes in the October patch.

IS TOTAL B.S.

[Oberost]

The Nerf Bat, on 16 October 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

4 out of 192 heavies and somehow, someway PGI singled the grasshopper to be hit by The Nerf Bat?

I'd like to know too because

We all know the answer to this question: nobody in PGI have a ******* clue about how their game is played, they just follow their spreadsheet and "internal data" and then throw darts.

I mean, the statements in the patch notes and in this update regarding why are these nefs applied are just stupid, if not totally out of touch with the state of the game.

Bud Crue, on 14 October 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

Here we have MWO. An often misunderstood work by the artist known as "PGI". As you can see, the artist is making a statement that math is hard and is expressing hatred for its consistent application. Here too the artist makes clear an aloofness to the idea that a game is to be played for fun, and instead seeks to illustrate contempt for those who get enjoyment from playing a game. Truly bold given the medium and thusly, even a casual observer cannot help but be struck by the bold overtones showing that what the viewer enjoys is irrelevant to the artist, but that the only thing with which the artist is concerned is making sure that the viewer understands the artists loathing for the viewer as well as for the medium and the very work of art itself! An amazing work really.

^^This^^

[Snowhawk]

I think this nerf is not adressing the real Problem... boating 6 er meds with 2 heavy large lasers or 2 lage pulse lasers.
With the longer coldown of the med lasers you are syncronizing them with the heavy large lasers... making this build easier.

The real Problem is "boating weapons" not the med lasers... This patch hurts mechs with a small number of er-meds while massive boating with med lasers and Heavy lasers is still usable.

[I cant want to]

im curious as to how many pre-orders were cancelled to affect this change.
what is the threshold of revenue loss required for the community to have some minor say in the state of the game?

Edited by chaothulhu, 16 October 2017 - 11:40 PM.

[PFC Carsten]

Thank you for listening to your players' concerns on this matter.

Generally, I would advise to try and pack a smaller nerf hammer and hit multiple times if necessary.

[Excalibaard]

I appreciate the efforts in trying to re-scale game balance, but these controversies arise at patches so often.
It appears as if you get an idea and just turn some dials in the general direction of what you want to achieve, without looking at the relative impact or size of the changes. It may not be like that, but it certainly appears like that.

The real problem is alpha strikes. Energy draw was convoluted and is not going to work, ghost heat is convoluted and people have become prey good at avoiding it in their builds but alpha remains.
Why not simply add a 'recoil' system where it gets harder for mechs to converge all weapons as they fire them off at the same time/in rapid succession while the mech stabilizes? No weird heat restrictions or extra resources. Just a reticle that increases in size after a certain threshold (based on mech weight, enemy weapon fire, jumpjet use and running speed). If people want to alpha, based on the size of the alpha they will have to wait a longer time before they can fire again, reducing the dps just like ghost heat would, or you could make the recoil effective immediately.

Recoil is intuitive from fps and could give more feeling to the differences between ac20 and ac10. Additionally, a flavor choice would be to make lasers hot as hell but with minimal recoil (inaccuracy is already gained by burn time).