32 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

(Testing was done before the October 17 patch)

Quote

With Artemis missiles being able to stack both the Artemis bonus and the Skill Tree bonuses, Artemis systems were too capable of reliably placing a majority of their total volley damage on a single Component.

Taken from the October patch notes.

Anyone who regularly uses Artemis SRMs knows that this is completely false.

I went into testing grounds to test this. Artemis C-SRM 6s with -5% missile spread from the skill tree. I fired them at the Atlas' CT at 100m. The Atlas is a pretty target, and 100m is VERY close range...so you would think that most of the SRMs would hit the CT right?

Does not work that way in actual game play though.

I took a video to prove it. The stock AS7-D has 125 CT armor. 108 SRMs were needed to breach the CT armor when fired at a distance of 100m. That is 216 damage, of which roughly 58% of the SRMs hit the CT.

Video : https://a.pomf.cat/yiartm.webm

I think most people would agree that a 58% hit rate against an atlas CT at 100m does not count as "majority of their total volley damage on a single component".

It took only a few mins of testing to prove that the patch notes were completely wrong on this. Just how did PGI testers manage to put the majority of SRMs into a single component? Were they firing at 50m and below?

(Below are some observations on missile spread in general)

I also found that surprisingly, distance to the target does not matter much till you get to about 50m and below. You would think that there would be a huge difference in spread between 200m and 100m for example, but there actually isn't.

At approx 200m, it took 126 Artemis SRMs (fired from C-SRM 6s with -5% missile spread skill nodes) to breach the Atlas CT armor (125 CT armor) in testing grounds. That is 252 damage, or roughly a 50% hit rate.

To put things into perspective :

C-SRM 6s with Artemis and -5% missile spread skill nodes have a final spread of roughly 3.135.

Range : 200m (74% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 50%

Range : 100m (37% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 58%
Improvement vs 200m : 8% hit rate for 100m range

Range : 50m (19% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 69%
Improvement vs 100m : 11% hit rate for 50m range)

Range : 25m (9% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 95%
Improvement vs 50m : 26% hit rate for 25m range)


Interestingly, the spread increase does not appear to be linear based on distance. There is a huge difference in spread between 50m vs 25m but relatively little at 200m vs 100m.

I then tried testing without Artemis :

C-SRM 6s with -5% missile spread skill nodes have a final spread of 4.75.

Range : 100m (37% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 43%
Artemis hit rate improvement : 15%

Range : 50m (19% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT :49%
Artemis hit rate improvement : 20%

Range : 25m (9% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 74%
Artemis hit rate improvement : 21%

You will notice that 34% less spread doesn't actually translate to 34% more hits against the Atlas CT. As to whether Artemis is worth it, IMHO it is unless you are on a fast mover that can fire them at 25m and below (which is almost physical touch range). It's quite obvious that SRMs are quite underpowered actually, especially when fired at anything smaller than an Atlas.

MRMs : Ever wondered why MRMs do nothing? They have a spread nearly as bad as SRMs but are meant for 550m range. Guess how many of those missiles will hit an Atlas CT at 550m? Pretty much none.

Now here is something very very weird. The LBX-20 has a spread of 1. So it SHOULD be much more accurate than Artemis SRMs right?

Turns out that they have roughly the same hit rate against the Atlas CT despite the LBX-20 having roughly 1/3rd of the spread.

Artemis SRMs with -5% missile spread skill nodes: 3.135 spread
Range : 200m (74% of the base 270m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 50%

LBX-20 : 1 spread
Range : 200m (56% of the base 360m optimal range)
Hit rate against Atlas CT : 57%
68% less spread results in 7% more hits to the Atlas CT

Is it any wonder that LBXs are so bad?

Edited by Jun Watarase, 17 October 2017 - 03:18 AM.

[Cold Darkness]

just pointing out that a majority starts at 51% unless you want to nitpick and use 0,00000001 values >.>

[Jun Watarase]

So the worry is that 51% of SRMs will hit the target location?

[Dogstar]

Jun Watarase, on 17 October 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

So the worry is that 51% of SRMs will hit the target location?

Apparently so. 51% is where OP starts.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

The nerf was flat for all artemis, not SRM6+A only.

[Cold Darkness]

Jun Watarase, on 17 October 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

So the worry is that 51% of SRMs will hit the target location?

havent you realised that your test proved both, the thread title and PGIs reasoning for the change, to be correct?
if your point was supposed to be that

Quote

I think most people would agree that a 58% hit rate against an atlas CT at 100m does not count as "majority of their total volley damage on a single component".

It took only a few mins of testing to prove that the patch notes were completely wrong on this. Just how did PGI testers manage to put the majority of SRMs into a single component? Were they firing at 50m and below?

then you failed at what you where trying to do. its that simple.

[Jun Watarase]

I think most people would say "majority of SRMs" would be like 75% or more. Not a measly 50-60%.

Thats a test on one of the largest mechs in the game btw, im sure the % hit will drop significantly on smaller targets.

[CK16]

A Griffin says yes to my MK II's front CT o.O

Edited by CK16, 17 October 2017 - 04:27 AM.

[Cold Darkness]

Jun Watarase, on 17 October 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

I think most people would say "majority of SRMs" would be like 75% or more. Not a measly 50-60%.

Thats a test on one of the largest mechs in the game btw, im sure the % hit will drop significantly on smaller targets.

it doesnt matter what most people would say when its factually wrong. thats the whole point. the argument with smaller targets is what you should have utilized as the main argument to have a valid point to begin with.
im not arguing about how effective or ineffective SRMs are compared to other weapons in the current metagame, im just saying that your thread would have much more value if it wasnt based on misinterpretation, hyperbole and a factual error to begin with.

[ForceUser]

Fun fact: Majority starts at >50%

Fun fact2: If 58% of the missiles hit the CT, that means only less than 21% hit the left ST and less than 21% hits the right ST.

So more than double the missiles hit the CT than any one of the side torsos.

I'm confused, what was the OP trying to prove again?

[Dr Cara Carcass]

If you guys wouldnt nitpick about the exact way he said it you would have understoot, that the artemis on srms doesnt do that much, especially not as much as to cross a reasonable line to deserve a nerf. It was perfectly fine considering the tonnage it cost. They should have left srm spread alone. I run srm in my mediums with and without. i use artemis when tonnage is free because it doesnt do much exept for teh first shot where the distance ia s bit higher. After that the difference is not that noticeable and is in line with the higher tonnage.

[TWIAFU]

Jun Watarase, on 17 October 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

I think most people would say "majority of SRMs" would be like 75% or more. Not a measly 50-60%.

Thats a test on one of the largest mechs in the game btw, im sure the % hit will drop significantly on smaller targets.

A "majority' of people cannot do math.

51% is a majority for those that can.

[Mister Blastman]

Only on the MWO forums... OP has a valid point and he's attacked not because it is a bad idea(that SRMs don't deserve more spread), but because of semantics and the choice of words he used--because he said majority, which, in truth is >50%, but these attacks fail to address or miss the spirit of first post. Very, very sad.

SRMs do not deserve more spread.

[Tiewolf]

Like I said before I couldn't understand the patch notes. It feels like someone said:"we want to change that but we have no reasons for it other then burning the players cbills so make something up for the patch notes." As far as I know nobody asked for an Artemis nerf and putting all missiles in one component is very unlikely if you are not at 20m point blank range. Your testing even didn't consider torso twist/movement of the atlas so the real damage to one specific area is even less. Well done Jun!

Edited by Tiewolf, 17 October 2017 - 05:53 AM.

[Lux Monolithic]

For those of you that fail to understand context, the issue is not with the term "majority" or what that specifically means. It's with the fact that SRM's do in fact not do what PGI claims they do... which is reliably focus damage on a single component, artemis or not. Not even counting flaky hit reg.

51% hit rate on single component... that's supposed to be OP because its the majority? Fail.

Edited by Illuminous Owl, 17 October 2017 - 05:57 AM.

[InfinityBall]

Mister Blastman, on 17 October 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

Only on the MWO forums... OP has a valid point and he's attacked not because it is a bad idea(that SRMs don't deserve more spread), but because of semantics and the choice of words he used--because he said majority, which, in truth is >50%, but these attacks fail to address or miss the spirit of first post. Very, very sad.

SRMs do not deserve more spread.

Hey, we can be pedantic on other forums too.

Illuminous Owl, on 17 October 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

For those of you that fail to understand context, the issue is not with the term "majority" or what that specifically means. It's with the fact that SRM's do in fact not do what PGI claims they do... which is reliably focus damage on a single component, artemis or not. Not even counting flaky hit reg.

51% hit rate on single component... that's supposed to be OP because its the majority? Fail.

If he'd let it die after the comment pointing out he was wrong about the "majority" thing, this wouldn't have gone anywhere. But he didn't, and tried to claim that a majority was substantially larger than 50%, which made him look foolish, which of course caused people to argue against him.

No one is saying the artemis nerf was a good idea.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 17 October 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

I think most people would say "majority of SRMs" would be like 75% or more. Not a measly 50-60%.

Thats a test on one of the largest mechs in the game btw, im sure the % hit will drop significantly on smaller targets.

Then the majority would be wrong. Majority simply means more than 50%

FWIW, I don't think any missile system needed this nerf, in fact most (all but SRMs) need a good deal of help.

[Nightbird]

Missile spread is in meters, LBX/MG spread is in degrees.

Missiles when fired spread to a circle with diameter as specified, as you've tested it takes roughly 50 meters to do that.

LBX/MG spread in a cicle diameter of 2*distance travelled*sin(spread in degrees). In your case, 2*200*sin(1)=3.5meters.

[Athom83]

As someone who uses SRMs extensively (both standard and Artemis), the Artemis equiped ones were a bit powerful when you got to around 16 tubes plus. With my Highlander (SRM18a + UAC/20) or my Cyclops (SRM22a + UAC/20), I could take an Assault's ST off in a single alpha pretty easily. Yes, not all of them could go into a single component, but enough of them did because of that spread reduction from Artemis and the Skill Tree (with a good shot I can get around 60 to 70 percent of them into a single location against heavies and assaults).

[Brain Cancer]

What's hilariously sad is this is apparently an attempt to nerf ASRM, when the most potent SRM carriers are quasi-lights like the Assassin that are pumping missiles into something at nosepicking range. Without Artemis.

Meanwhlle, it also casually hoses LRMs, which are the definition of "weapon that doesn't hit with the majority of it's missiles anywhere, assuming it hits" and ATMs, which weren't notably clustersmashing deathrockets got the hose too. GGclose, balance team.