123 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Illuminous Owl, on 20 October 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

She's a nimble little thing isn't she!

I may just pick the Arctic Wolf up. Yeah, MPLs are a solid brawling choice. I agree obviously with Quicksilver that the CERMLs and a HLL or two is a better trade setup but the ability to turn 12 tons in to a heat efficient 42 pt alpha at 350m With a quick turnaround has it's place.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 10:09 PM, said:

She's a nimble little thing isn't she!

I may just pick the Arctic Wolf up. Yeah, MPLs are a solid brawling choice. I agree obviously with Quicksilver that the CERMLs and a HLL or two is a better trade setup but the ability to turn 12 tons in to a heat efficient 42 pt alpha at 350m With a quick turnaround has it's place.

You are going to give PGI money after that last patch?

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 October 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

You are going to give PGI money after that last patch?

For all the doomsaying and PGI hatred, there certainly are a lot of pre-ordered mechs running about, anyone worried about MWO shutting down should do the math on pre-order packs sold to server rental rates, pretty sure you will find one outweighs the other by a massive margin.

This is just more of the reason why it would be one of the stupidest moves of all time to just shut down MWO at all, even if MW5 is extremely successful, your really think they would put this cash cow to pasture?

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 20 October 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

For all the doomsaying and PGI hatred, there certainly are a lot of pre-ordered mechs running about, anyone worried about MWO shutting down should do the math on pre-order packs sold to server rental rates, pretty sure you will find one outweighs the other by a massive margin.

This is just more of the reason why it would be one of the stupidest moves of all time to just shut down MWO at all, even if MW5 is extremely successful, your really think they would put this cash cow to pasture?

I don't hate PGI. I just find them completely inept when it comes to sensible game design and it's getting tiresome. That, by itself, has probably driven quite a few players away. I don't expect them to just shut MWO down when MW5 comes out, I expect them to shut it down when it ceases to be profitable and, because of said design ineptness, I worry for their future.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 October 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

I don't hate PGI. I just find them completely inept when it comes to sensible game design and it's getting tiresome. That, by itself, has probably driven quite a few players away. I don't expect them to just shut MWO down when MW5 comes out, I expect them to shut it down when it ceases to be profitable and, because of said design ineptness, I worry for their future.

I'm not saying you hate them, and not saying you are one of the doomsayers, I don't think I remember you doing that at all really, I was just making that point about the reality of mechpack sales.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 October 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

You are going to give PGI money after that last patch?

I'm gonna have to spend money on the Piranha, since I mostly play CW, with my MS mates, and Clanners lack 20 tonner. And 12 Clan MGs will make some very badass noise.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 October 2017 - 12:16 AM.

[CraneArmy]

Heave lasers are GREAT
IS Large Pulse are fine, they used to be good.

while the heavy mediums are really good, the heavy larges are better.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Where Medium lasers really that OPed before? Never felt that way, especially when you factor in the heat sinks required and spaces required for heat sinks. Why the nerf...

It is nerfs like this the PGI does that really makes me tired of MWO and feel like nothing goes anywhere. Just round and round in circles. Like a dog chasing it's own tail.

Guess it is now time once again to play other games and come back to MWO when stuff changes again and/or I forget enough.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 21 October 2017 - 02:02 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 20 October 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

I can get away with so much more in my IS mechs and be so much more effective due to 0.5s pulse lasers

There's that lie again. Remember:

Only the IS Small Pulse Laser has a 0.5s duration.

Say it with me!

[Mr Snrub]

Illuminous Owl, on 20 October 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

Ignoring sticks is a very good and wise move, but if you have nothing else to do, just shoot the guy and be done with it.

You could see everyone was just pussyfooting around that weaponless thing, unsure what to do and getting distracted.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 October 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

You are going to give PGI money after that last patch?

Here's the thing. I canceled my 2x ultimate package preorders and I don't regret it - having been farming Osiris and Nightstar for a day. I have PHX and other terribad mechs I've bought in my bay already I have no need of more bad mechs. If KCom stays exclusively Clans for a while yet I might pick up a basic Arctic Wolf pack because a having a good me h in that tonnage would give me some better drop deck options.

I'm frustrated with the bad balance. I always have been. However I think the intent to make good balance is there and sometimes it shines through. I spend a lot of time on MWO so clearly it has value to me and I don't mind spending money on it. I just don't want that money to feel wasted.

[Phoolan Devi]

Illuminous Owl, on 19 October 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

55 Ton Stormcrow on Smurfy: 8x HML, 18 DHS, T-Comp 1, 97.2 KPH - Firepower 80
Maximal DPS: 11.51
Sustained DPS: 3.80

65 Ton Thunderbolt TDR-9SE on Smurfy: LFE 280, 3 LPL, 16 DHS, 69.8 KPH - Firepower 27
Maximal DPS: 8.17
Sustained DPS: 3.92

So a 55 Ton Clan Mech has higher DPS, way higher burst DPS, is 28 KPH faster, doesn't break ghost heat firing 4, and has 2 more heatsinks, better hardpoints, symmetrical build so not all weapons lost in one torso. With Clan T-Comp and skills you're negating range advantage.

Go ahead... Add one more LPL for 7 tons and now you only have 12 DHS. Good luck.

This is just one example... there are many.

Call me daft here, but aren't 3.92 sustained DPS better than 3.80 and aren't sustained DPS that what counts in the long run?

[davoodoo]

Phoolan Devi, on 21 October 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

Call me daft here, but aren't 3.92 sustained DPS better than 3.80 and aren't sustained DPS that what counts in the long run?

No, we usually dont engage in stare matches.

Better statistic would be damage until overheat.

[MischiefSC]

Phoolan Devi, on 21 October 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

Call me daft here, but aren't 3.92 sustained DPS better than 3.80 and aren't sustained DPS that what counts in the long run?

The only damage that matters is damage until the target is dead. 3 alphas at 80 damage vs 3 at 30 damage is where this ends. Actually probably two alphas at 80, depending on aim.

[Lux Monolithic]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 10:09 PM, said:

She's a nimble little thing isn't she!

I may just pick the Arctic Wolf up. Yeah, MPLs are a solid brawling choice. I agree obviously with Quicksilver that the CERMLs and a HLL or two is a better trade setup but the ability to turn 12 tons in to a heat efficient 42 pt alpha at 350m With a quick turnaround has it's place.

Yep. It's really a great feeling setup. I highly recommend the Arctic Wolves. They are a lot of fun.

[davoodoo]

Shifty McSwift, on 20 October 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

For all the doomsaying and PGI hatred, there certainly are a lot of pre-ordered mechs running about, anyone worried about MWO shutting down should do the math on pre-order packs sold to server rental rates, pretty sure you will find one outweighs the other by a massive margin.

This is just more of the reason why it would be one of the stupidest moves of all time to just shut down MWO at all, even if MW5 is extremely successful, your really think they would put this cash cow to pasture?

Most likely would imo be account transfer into mw5.

You just need to recreate inventories in new game and you can run mw5 multiplayer for free while having singleplayer behind paywall.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 October 2017 - 11:56 AM.

[panzer1b]

Honestly, both sides NEED to have laser alfa strike limited to say ~60, since its just not fun whatsover to get hit for 80+ alfa and loose a ST in the process when you have 1-2 seconds of unattentiveness at the worst possible time. I think 60 would be alot more fair, since one, clan would nolonger be able to do stupid alfas relative to IS, and 2, they still have the ability to play the trading game with a bit more alfa but less effective dmg vs IS. Also, since IS is soft capped at 50-60 anyways, itll bring teh tech bases a little bit closer together (obviously other things need to be done too, but at least clan wont be able to win every trade every time).

As for the IS LPL, i have to disagree with the people that say its trash post nerf. With 4 duration nodes, you are looking at something that may as well be PPFLD with ~0.5s burn dur, and 30 damage that is impossible to spread or evade is very nice and a great way to core people out or cut off components to quickly swing a bad fight your way (its funny watching clan mechs frantically overheating themselves after you remove a ST and all their heatsinks go away). Yes its niche, and yes i would say that in most situations you are better off mixing ERLLs and ERMLs, but at least you cant entirely say that triple LPLs are worthless or anything of the sort as PPFLD does give them something over the competition (technically not PPFLD but with duration that short it is borderline impossible to spread it if u can aim worth a damn).

As for the overall energy balancing, i can see how the heavy lasers are a little good strong without a global alfa limit since they weigh nothing for what they do. Ofc id never put them on a slow mech since range is a issue, but on something like a fidge, crow, or even cheater, the HML is stupidly good since it gives you high alfa for a fairly low heat cost (they are got per alfa, but their heat/dmg is superior to ERs), and lets you do 30-50 dmg to the back of something you caught unaware of you (40 dmg or 50 if you eat a bit of ghost heat will 1 shot most heavy/med to teh rear CT). Still, their damage is alot less efficient against a target that is moving around and twisting, and even with perfect ping and skilled players on both sides, its not exactly easy to dump 100% of a 1+s duration burn into a single component, let alone if you need to split up your firing groups cause of ghost heat limitations. Im not crazy good at dis game, but ive found 0.75 to be the point where its very easy to get 95% of your damage into what you want, more then 1s, and you are gonna spread a little bit if the enemy is moving around and not staring at you, ignoring you, or piloting very sluggish mechs with massive and obvious hitboxes like the clan assaults.

Still, if we can do something about the clan's ability to stupid alfa all day, i think interside balance would become much better, clan is longer range but less focused, IS shoter range but more focused and effective dmg.

[MischiefSC]

panzer1b, on 21 October 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Honestly, both sides NEED to have laser alfa strike limited to say ~60, since its just not fun whatsover to get hit for 80+ alfa and loose a ST in the process when you have 1-2 seconds of unattentiveness at the worst possible time. I think 60 would be alot more fair, since one, clan would nolonger be able to do stupid alfas relative to IS, and 2, they still have the ability to play the trading game with a bit more alfa but less effective dmg vs IS. Also, since IS is soft capped at 50-60 anyways, itll bring teh tech bases a little bit closer together (obviously other things need to be done too, but at least clan wont be able to win every trade every time).

As for the IS LPL, i have to disagree with the people that say its trash post nerf. With 4 duration nodes, you are looking at something that may as well be PPFLD with ~0.5s burn dur, and 30 damage that is impossible to spread or evade is very nice and a great way to core people out or cut off components to quickly swing a bad fight your way (its funny watching clan mechs frantically overheating themselves after you remove a ST and all their heatsinks go away). Yes its niche, and yes i would say that in most situations you are better off mixing ERLLs and ERMLs, but at least you cant entirely say that triple LPLs are worthless or anything of the sort as PPFLD does give them something over the competition (technically not PPFLD but with duration that short it is borderline impossible to spread it if u can aim worth a damn).

As for the overall energy balancing, i can see how the heavy lasers are a little good strong without a global alfa limit since they weigh nothing for what they do. Ofc id never put them on a slow mech since range is a issue, but on something like a fidge, crow, or even cheater, the HML is stupidly good since it gives you high alfa for a fairly low heat cost (they are got per alfa, but their heat/dmg is superior to ERs), and lets you do 30-50 dmg to the back of something you caught unaware of you (40 dmg or 50 if you eat a bit of ghost heat will 1 shot most heavy/med to teh rear CT). Still, their damage is alot less efficient against a target that is moving around and twisting, and even with perfect ping and skilled players on both sides, its not exactly easy to dump 100% of a 1+s duration burn into a single component, let alone if you need to split up your firing groups cause of ghost heat limitations. Im not crazy good at dis game, but ive found 0.75 to be the point where its very easy to get 95% of your damage into what you want, more then 1s, and you are gonna spread a little bit if the enemy is moving around and not staring at you, ignoring you, or piloting very sluggish mechs with massive and obvious hitboxes like the clan assaults.

Still, if we can do something about the clan's ability to stupid alfa all day, i think interside balance would become much better, clan is longer range but less focused, IS shoter range but more focused and effective dmg.

So we've gone over the math repeatedly. Also since the nodes are a % improvement it actually helps the Clan lasers which have longer burn more than the shorter burning IS ones.

Clan lasercomit for the same tonnage as IS LPLs will have better alpha, better DPS, better damage/tic and better cooling. Than any IS laservomit actually, not just LPLs. However LPLs are the least effective vs Clans in the mid range bracket.

[Y E O N N E]

^ And better range.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

Go look up the thread as we go over why IS LPLs are bad. Yes, a single 1 ton HMM is not as good as a 7 ton IS LPL if you are inexplicably dueling with 1 laser each.

So 3 LPLs vs 2 HMLs, 2 HLLs and 9 DHS? Yeah.

Lets see 3 IS LPLs fire twice as often as the HML and HLL set up so your outputting 66 damage with the IS setup and 56 damage with the HML/HLL Clan set up in about the same amount of time. I am over simplifying but again I am sure that isn't something you were taking into account when you made your statement.

That is point I keep trying to make. The vast majority of time anyone starts complaining about how grossly unbalance, OP or UP or whatever something is, they either use selective facts or don't look at things from all perspectives.

The HML for example has ton of disadvantages, so many disadvantages I tend to avoid it on most builds. Sure it has great alpha capability but the beam duration is so long that you tend to spread damage all over the face of the enemy mech your firing at, unless they are an idiot and just standing still. Often the beam duration is so long, I have to retreat to cover before it even manages to finish its firing cycle. Also often my targets will get into cover before the beam finishes firing. All those scenarios are lost damage which combined with the excessive heat it generates makes it very inefficient in an actual match often and not. Then there is heat you have to consider. The spike heat it generates is huge and it is very easy to spike your heat up so fast with them that all you can do it hide and cool down. This again is inefficient at least over the scope of an entire match. Then there is the cooldown which often prevents you from taking advantage of opportunity fire because your shot opportunity disappears before your cooldown finishes. I also find myself tremendously disadvantages in those heated, face-to-face duels as well again because of the long delay between shots. Finally there is the slot count. They are so much larger than normal medium lasers that it is very easy to run out of crit space when you use them. The point I am trying to make is there are tons of factors that make LPLs better in some situations and HMLs better in others. One is not hands down better than the other, especially since they are used quite differently to fill different roles on different mechs.