123 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Daurock, on 20 October 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

It's free heat they get from extra sinks due to lighter weight

the extra dhs do not bring you that much extra coolant.

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

That's not reaction speed it's habit; you twist not because you're reacting to enemy fire but your lasers are done, which lets you respond more quickly than reflexes alone would do. 150 is really, really fast but certainly happens -

However as you note reaction speed is important but it's limited by the mechs actual rotational speed.

150ms reaction isn't fast, especially since youdon't only react to visual tiggers. on a prepared event reaction time is said to be 100ms, and if you already trade fire you immediately twist withotu delay when your weapons finish.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 October 2017 - 10:15 AM.

[Papaspud]

Lily from animove, on 20 October 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

the extra dhs do not bring you that much extra coolant.




150ms reaction isn't fast,

hahahahaha, yes this from super lightning reflex man, I am sure you can react in .00001 seconds right? Average reaction is .215, and that doesn't count ping etc, etc. And yes extra heat sinks are no big deal..... why don't you just not use them then?

Here is another reason we have no balance, I guess I shouldn't say we anymore.

[Lily from animove]

Papaspud, on 20 October 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

hahahahaha, yes this from super lightning reflex man, I am sure you can react in .00001 seconds right? Average reaction is .215, and that doesn't count ping etc, etc. And yes extra heat sinks are no big deal..... why don't you just not use them then?

Here is another reason we have no balance, I guess I shouldn't say we anymore.

your average rection time is for visual actions, but you can respond faster to audio signals, and so you hear for the audio not the cisual hit (which you may not see anywayss). And someone who gains a lot gets better reflexes allround sportsman get 0.1-0.25s, and competitive sportsman can even 0,05-0,09s and you can bet those who paly a lot mwo and serious have some very good competitive sportsman liek reaction time.

but as usual you quality of gathering facts shows. And thats why I just stop discussign nwo you gyus find the facts again supporting your opiion not trying to objectively see the whole of the stuff.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 October 2017 - 01:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Lily from animove, on 20 October 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

your average rection time is for visual actions, but you can respond faster to audio signals, and so you hear for the audio not the cisual hit (which you may not see anywayss). And someone who gains a lot gets better reflexes allround sportsman get 0.1-0.25s, and competitive sportsman can even 0,05-0,09s and you can bet those who paly a lot mwo and serious have some very good competitive sportsman liek reaction time.

but as usual you quality of gathering facts shows. And thats why I just stop discussign nwo you gyus find the facts again supporting your opiion not trying to objectively see the whole of the stuff.

Your audio reflexes are not 'trainable' the same way visual ones are. Unless you have changed sound files to have the soft sizzle of lasers in this game sound like a screaming child or other sharp, threatening noise you're not working off audio reflexes.

The problem is that you're not being objective. The math has been put up repeatedly. Even if someone is top tier comp level of trained habits (which is what you're talking about when you get into the 150ms range; they're not reacting to stimuli they are just twisting when the lasers finish regardless however you're still dealing with your nervous systems 100-150ms 'ping' to respond to when it judges the lasers should be done, blinking for example has a 100ms 'ping') the mech itself doesn't move instantly. So the reality is that regardless of the difference in burn time on lasers you're going to eat, at absolute best, another 0.15 to 0.2 of the burn.

Even if you don't though. Suppose I start 0.1 or 0.2 after you do. Because I'm burning 43 pts to your 30 over the same 0.67 I'm still winning.

You're trying to drag it off into semantics of ideal human reflexes when the reality is that even a comp tier player is going to have a good 0.8 or 0.9 of viable CT 'exposure' even with perfect twisting unless they cut their own burn short. Even if they only take 0.6 seconds of burn back however they took more than 30 pts of damage.

You're wrong. Demonstratively wrong, which is why nobody in comp uses LPLs anymore for IS. Take 2 larger and 5 ERMLs. You will still lose out but it's much closer. LPLs are bad. The 0.67 burn time is absolutely not worth the tonnage/damage ratio. It was iffy at 11; however the 1 point loss is a 10% reduction in damage/tic which just makes it a clear loser instead of a close loser.

Edited by MischiefSC, 20 October 2017 - 02:00 PM.

[davoodoo]

Battlemaster56, on 18 October 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

Umm... you know the ridiculous levels of heat that HML brings right, and the time to cool off after firing it.

You know that hml is cooler than lpl??
hml 1.15hps
lpl 1.98hps

also erml 1.1hps

Papaspud, on 20 October 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

hahahahaha, yes this from super lightning reflex man, I am sure you can react in .00001 seconds right? Average reaction is .215, and that doesn't count ping etc, etc. And yes extra heat sinks are no big deal..... why don't you just not use them then?

Here is another reason we have no balance, I guess I shouldn't say we anymore.

thats average for general population, including old ppl and ppl who normally doesnt train their reflex, for gamers i would actually expect 100-150ms range.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 October 2017 - 02:10 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So I looked up mech stats.

Almost all heavies are 85.5 degrees/second.

So it's at least 0.4 - 0.8 on a mech with shield arms even to get your CT out of sight (45-60 degrees away, at least). We're not even talking 90 degrees, just mostly away.

So.... yeah. The whole 'reaction speed' thing is irrelevant. That explains why burn time largely feels irrelevant, save when you're shooting a moving target (like a light) where having a shorter burn helps you keep more of it on target. For trading/twisting the difference between even LPLs and just about anything else doesn't really matter due to mech twist speeds

[davoodoo]

Thats the other thing, ppl claim ppfld is so important, but in reality i dont see ppl twisting off lasers at all.

[roboPrancer]

When you guys get to arguing the cluster truck that is pulse lasers as a whole ill join in, send me a message.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Illuminous Owl, on 18 October 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Clan Heavy Medium - 10dmg, 1 ton, 270m
IS Large Pulse - 10dmg, 7 ton, 365m

This is ridiculous. 7 Tons for the same damage and only slightly more range!? Honestly, how is IS expected to compete at all with that? We all know its alpha strike peeking that dominates this game. IS have limited energy hardpoints and no omnis. I mean this is just blatantly stupid. 7 tons? So my Catapult has to use 21 tons to equal 30dmg where a Clan mech only uses 3 tons? O_O (Has far better cooling, more hardpoints, higher mounted, faster)

I have been playing this game a long time, but I just feel the need to talk about this because its so incredibly stupid. Why would anyone ever play IS? Most of the mechs are just plain inferior, and drastically so.

I am of the opinion that there should at least be a discernable advantage to take IS over Clan, that allows the adaptation of a different playstyle to narrow the gap against Clan.

I enjoy playing both sides, but this is just plain stupid.

It always amazes me how the numbers are selectively chosen in these arguments so please stop.

The Clan Heavy Medium laser is:

1. Hotter (8.0 heat vs 7.25 heat)
2. Shorter Ranged (270m vs 360) - You did mention this surprise, surprise.
3. Has a much longer cooldown, almost twice as long (5.5 seconds vs 3.0 seconds)
4. Has a much longer beam duration, more than twice as long (1.45 duration vs 0.67 Duration)

So sorry, not even close to the same damage. In fact probably less than half the damage when you look at it from an "over time" perspective. Additionally due to the longer duration, you tend to have much less concentrated damage with the beam spreading all over the enemy mech or maybe even missing all together. Then you have to consider the missed "oportunity" shots you have when using the heavy medium laser because while you may have a target, if you the weapon is on cooldown, you can't actually fire at the target. IS LPL is going to be ready to fire twice as often as the HML will be due to cooldown and duration. Then there is heat to consider. Sure it is only 0.75 more but that adds up which means you will end up potentially having more downtime cooling when using the HML vs the IS LPL. Then there is the range factor to consider as well. the IS LPL will be doing full damage and/or partial damage much further out which adds to its damage per match numbers quite significantly. There are a couple other minor factors I could discuss as well but at that point I would be getting super nitpicky and I think I have made my point so I will stop here.

So aside from weight, the HML is clearly inferior to the LPL in every category which is how it should be however you have to look at it from every angle and factor in much more than alpha damage because a single alpha doesn't win you the match, it is your ability to sustain damage output throughout the match that wins you the match.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 20 October 2017 - 02:48 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Viktor Drake, on 20 October 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

It always amazes me how the numbers are selectively chosen in these arguments so please stop.

The Clan Heavy Medium laser is:

1. Hotter (8.0 heat vs 7.25 heat)
2. Shorter Ranged (270m vs 360) - You did mention this surprise, surprise.
3. Has a much longer cooldown, almost twice as long (5.5 seconds vs 3.0 seconds)
4. Has a much longer beam duration, more than twice as long (1.45 duration vs 0.67 Duration)

So sorry, not even close to the same damage. In fact probably less than half the damage when you look at it from an "over time" perspective. Additionally due to the longer duration, you tend to have much less concentrated damage with the beam spreading all over the enemy mech or maybe even missing all together. Then you have to consider the missed "oportunity" shots you have when using the heavy medium laser because while you may have a target, if you the weapon is on cooldown, you can't actually fire at the target. IS LPL is going to be ready to fire twice as often as the HML will be due to cooldown and duration. Then there is heat to consider. Sure it is only 0.75 more but that adds up which means you will end potentially up having more downtime cooling when using the HML vs the IS LPL. Then there is the range factor to consider as well. the IS LPL will be doing full damage and/or partial damage much further out which adds to its damage per match numbers quite significantly. There are a couple other minor factors I could discuss as well but at that point I would be getting super nitpicky and I think I have made my point so I will stop here.

So aside from weight, the HML is clearly inferior to the LPL in every category which is how it should be however you have to look at it from every angle and factor in much more than alpha damage because a single alpha doesn't win you the match, it is your ability to sustain damage output throughout the match that wins you the match.

Go look up the thread as we go over why IS LPLs are bad. Yes, a single 1 ton HMM is not as good as a 7 ton IS LPL if you are inexplicably dueling with 1 laser each.

So 3 LPLs vs 2 HMLs, 2 HLLs and 9 DHS? Yeah.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

So 3 LPLs vs 2 HMLs, 2 HLLs and 9 DHS? Yeah.

Even this isn't a realistic comparison as cERML still combine better with cHLLs due to range. cERML/cHLL or cERML/cERLL still blow IS lasers out of the water.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 October 2017 - 02:58 PM.

[Razorfish]

Viktor Drake, on 20 October 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

It always amazes me how the numbers are selectively chosen in these arguments so please stop.

The Clan Heavy Medium laser is:

1. Hotter (8.0 heat vs 7.25 heat)
2. Shorter Ranged (270m vs 360) - You did mention this surprise, surprise.
3. Has a much longer cooldown, almost twice as long (5.5 seconds vs 3.0 seconds)
4. Has a much longer beam duration, more than twice as long (1.45 duration vs 0.67 Duration)

So sorry, not even close to the same damage. In fact probably less than half the damage when you look at it from an "over time" perspective. Additionally due to the longer duration, you tend to have much less concentrated damage with the beam spreading all over the enemy mech or maybe even missing all together. Then you have to consider the missed "oportunity" shots you have when using the heavy medium laser because while you may have a target, if you the weapon is on cooldown, you can't actually fire at the target. IS LPL is going to be ready to fire twice as often as the HML will be due to cooldown and duration. Then there is heat to consider. Sure it is only 0.75 more but that adds up which means you will end up potentially having more downtime cooling when using the HML vs the IS LPL. Then there is the range factor to consider as well. the IS LPL will be doing full damage and/or partial damage much further out which adds to its damage per match numbers quite significantly. There are a couple other minor factors I could discuss as well but at that point I would be getting super nitpicky and I think I have made my point so I will stop here.

So aside from weight, the HML is clearly inferior to the LPL in every category which is how it should be however you have to look at it from every angle and factor in much more than alpha damage because a single alpha doesn't win you the match, it is your ability to sustain damage output throughout the match that wins you the match.

It always amazes me how people can argue on the side of the Clan tech. Weapon balance is hugely in favor of clan weapons. Only a fan boy would argue otherwise.

[YueFei]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

That's not reaction speed it's habit; you twist not because you're reacting to enemy fire but your lasers are done, which lets you respond more quickly than reflexes alone would do. 150 is really, really fast but certainly happens -

However as you note reaction speed is important but it's limited by the mechs actual rotational speed.

Oh absolutely it's purely anticipatory. In the same way that throwing a ball is "muscle memory" and you don't actually react to the feedback from the sensations in your arm through-out the throwing motion, because it all happens too fast. In fact, the sequence of nerve activation is all "pipe-lined" and then triggered all at once. In that same way a player could fire their laser burn and twist away right as it finishes.

But, even when combining leg turning + torso twisting, you still can't get the CT out of the way immediately. Even for the most nimble Heavy I could find on this chart, like the Quickdraw 4G/IV-4 with maxed skill tree nodes for turning and torso twisting, it's 93.81 / 168.75 degrees-per-second for leg turning + torso twist. Turning with legs and twisting the torso simultaneously, you can get up to 262.56 deg/sec. To get turned even 60 degrees would take 228 milliseconds.

As you noted already, the Clan mech is already ahead on damage even at the end of 0.67 seconds. Another ~228 milliseconds on top of that to pile more damage into a CT is just gravy anyways.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 October 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

Even this isn't a realistic comparison as cERML still combine better with cHLLs due to range. cERML/cHLL or cERML/cERLL still blow IS lasers out of the water.

Yep. The only time I use HMLs is I have a couple mid range builds that do 2 HLL, 2HMLs for QP.

That's the real point here - HMLs are certainly better than IS LPLs. However nobody uses them much because CERML or MPL are *even better*.

The LPL has been bad since the newtech, and the prior laser nerf pass both. The idea that IS LPL (or really any IS laservomit now) has a niche where it out trades Clan laservomit is a myth now. With heat buffs to cerlls, the HLLs and just overall nerfs to lasers in the IS there's no real IS laservomit that's comparable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

That's the real point here - HMLs are certainly better than IS LPLs. However nobody uses them much because CERML or MPL are *even better*.

I wouldn't go as far as saying cMPL is better either, because it still isn't worth the tonnage compared to cERML, and even mechs low on tonnage don't bother with cMPLs in place of cHML (like the Viper and Cheetah).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 October 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 October 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying cMPL is better either, because it still isn't worth the tonnage compared to cERML, and even mechs low on tonnage don't bother with cMPLs in place of cHML (like the Viper and Cheetah).

Well, 9 MPLs on a EBJ or MAD IIC brawls better. Much better. For poke though, yeah. 2 HLLs and a bunch of cermls and DHS or a gauss, add cermls or HLLs and cermls to suit bases on slots and tonnage.

I'd still take cermls on a Viper over HMLs because the Viper melts fast in a brawl. ACH I run MGs and HMLs.

MPLs for brawling though? Still very nasty and effective.

[Jun Watarase]

Source Mystic, on 20 October 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

Answer they are not. Real men and women play I.S. and do well.
Weak players that need clan crutches to do well. That is the difference.

Clan = Easy mode
Inner Sphere = Hard mode

This is the way it has always been and will always be so just accept this truth and choose a side.

Inner sphere likes a challenge and are real players
Clan children that need a advantage to make up for their lack of skill. They need a booster seat and need to be spoon feed.

For all you that are going to stay they are balanced. When was the last time inner sphere won a event and what percentage of events are won by Clan vs I.S. in the last year. If you answer those questions the truth is obvious.

Then why do i have such an easier time in QP with my IS mechs? The difference is like night and day. I can get away with so much more in my IS mechs and be so much more effective due to 0.5s pulse lasers and PPFLD. It just makes me want to laugh everytime I see something like a EBJ try and torso twist but I can still single out his CT anyway due to how bad the hitboxes are.

The DRG-5N is one of my favourites at the moment, used to love the CTF-1X but the med laser nerf really hurt its brawling capabilities.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 20 October 2017 - 05:09 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

Jun Watarase, on 20 October 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Then why do i have such an easier time in QP with my IS mechs? The difference is like night and day. I can get away with so much more in my IS mechs and be so much more effective due to 0.5s pulse lasers and PPFLD. It just makes me want to laugh everytime I see something like a EBJ try and torso twist but I can still single out his CT anyway due to how bad the hitboxes are.

The DRG-5N is one of my favourites at the moment, used to love the CTF-1X but the med laser nerf really hurt its brawling capabilities.

Obviously IS and Clan play differently and in your case your playstyle lines up better with Clan.
And of course anecdotal evidence/ confirmation bias. just because you do well doesnt mean anything.

Edited: when it comes to tech balance just try comparing the Onions. there is a variant on both sides with the same hardpoints, they also have near identical hitboxes etc. the only real difference is tech/quirks.

Edited by VitriolicViolet, 20 October 2017 - 05:43 PM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Jun Watarase, on 20 October 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Then why do i have such an easier time in QP with my IS mechs? The difference is like night and day. I can get away with so much more in my IS mechs and be so much more effective due to 0.5s pulse lasers and PPFLD. It just makes me want to laugh everytime I see something like a EBJ try and torso twist but I can still single out his CT anyway due to how bad the hitboxes are.

The DRG-5N is one of my favourites at the moment, used to love the CTF-1X but the med laser nerf really hurt its brawling capabilities.

Dude, you are making **** up again, like last time in my headshot giveaway thread. Take a step back and read your own posts again. You are not doing better in your LPL builds and sure as **** they arent more forgiving than other builds. How do i know? I saw you play with them and you didnt do well. So thats my piece of anecdotal evidence for reference

[Lux Monolithic]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Well, 9 MPLs on a EBJ or MAD IIC brawls better. Much better. For poke though, yeah. 2 HLLs and a bunch of cermls and DHS or a gauss, add cermls or HLLs and cermls to suit bases on slots and tonnage.

I'd still take cermls on a Viper over HMLs because the Viper melts fast in a brawl. ACH I run MGs and HMLs.

MPLs for brawling though? Still very nasty and effective.