259 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

Problem still remains of how to differentiate it from lasers. For a game play perspective, I'll have to give it a 6 meter damage spread if it is hitscan FLD.

You don't need to differentiate it from lasers though as I mentioned in my post above: https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5930805

Basically you have a suite of lasers for the different damage over time styles (instant, burst, sustained).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 October 2017 - 01:27 PM.

[Nightbird]

And instant would be PPCs right? A hitscan autocannon will not be balanced at 800 meters, it'll need insane spread to the LRM's damage efficiency. Basically a harassment weapon with little kill potential.

It also wouldn't be a shotgun spread weapon, which is pinpoint at close range. It'll be fixed spread from 0 to infinity, ala wide beam.

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2017 - 01:36 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

And instant would be PPCs right? A hitscan autocannon will not be balanced at 800 meters, it'll need insane spread to the LRM's damage efficiency. Basically a harassment weapon with little kill potential.

It won't need spread, it just needs heat. Outside of that you could give it charge-up to limit its usefulness at harassing a bit more.

The whole point is that the damage potential (sustained having the most and burst being the middle ground) of the others makes them valid weapons compared to the easier to use hitscan PPFLD weapon.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 October 2017 - 01:41 PM.

[Nightbird]

Sorry man, if charge up and heat are all you've got for a PPFLD hitscan weapon that is 30 damage for 12 tons at 900 range, balance is impossible.

[FupDup]

If PPCs get charge-up, does that mean Gauss still keeps it or gets it removed? Because if both have it, then it becomes a bit too easy to sync the two together (which was a major reason for the mechanic in the first place). And if Gauss loses it, then it just becomes an Extended-Range AC/15 again in terms of how it feels (less differentiation) and making it harder to balance it against other ballistics.

And how about the Bombast Laser?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

Sorry man, if charge up and heat are all you've got for a PPFLD hitscan weapon that is 30 damage for 12 tons at 900 range, balance is impossible.

What if it had double the duration (maybe 0.3s -> 0.6s), 50% longer recycle, and a potentially longer charge-up.

So let's do a quick comparison:
cERPPC:

• Damage: 15 (2.5 damage per 0.1s)
  
• Duration: 0.6s
  
• Charge-up: 1s
  
• Heat: 15
  
• Cooldown: 4.4s
  
• Range: 810m (or whatever you really want)
  
• Velocity: N/A (cuz hitscan)
  
• Tonnage: 6 tons

HPPC:

• Damage: 15 (5.0 damage per 0.1s)
  
• Duration: 0.3s
  
• Charge-up: 0.5s
  
• Heat: 12.5
  
• Cooldown: 3.2s
  
• Range: 540m (or whatever, I'm game for increasing range a bit on standard PPCs or reducing ERPPC range)
  
• Velocity: N/A (cuz hitscan)
  
• Tonnage: 10 tons

The iHPPC vs cERPPC is essentially like comparing 2 iLL to the cHLL with a few minor differences (cHLL is 2 tons lighter and doesn't have the range advantage). However that requirement of having to charge-up for 1s and have a duration of 0.6s at long range is extremely unwieldy so I'm not sure I like those numbers, these are just spit-balling numbers. The point is that the HPPC has significantly better damage application and potential DPS that allow it to be used as a bigger gun.

FupDup, on 26 October 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

If PPCs get charge-up, does that mean Gauss still keeps it or gets it removed?

Depends on the velocities, range, and charge-ups whether they sync or not. Then there is the simply fact that Gauss just needs heat to help balance it out which limit how powerful these will be. I mean imagine if the Whale is one of the only mechs that can mount enough DHS to use 2 ERPPC/2 Gauss? That's more along the lines of what I think should happen. What mechs can use them effectively should be pretty limited by the heat profiles.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 October 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[Nightbird]

I noticed you gave them duration, I thought you wrote PPFLD

My question then would have been what role would pulse lasers have?

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2017 - 02:04 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

I noticed you gave them duration, I thought you wrote PPFLD

Technically yes, but some of us already treat durations that are around 0.5s and below as PPFLD because they practically are. For most targets, it is essentially PPFLD and doubly so if the stupid duration skill is maintained in the skill tree.

As for pulse, not really sure which approach is preferred but there are two approaches to them and standard lasers.

Pulse become burst and Beam become sustained

• Pulse lasers would fire multiple AND sequential PPC-esque lasers that does less damage per shot but allow for increase damage potential (for example 2 iLL could do 25-50% more damage than an HPPC but requires triple the time on target).
  
• Beam lasers would become "Continuous Beam Lasers", basically no cooldown beams that you fire as long as you have enough heat capacity to do so.

Pulse become sustained and Beam become burst

• Pulse lasers essentially fire PPC-esque shots that do significantly less damage but are able to fire often like an AC2 or AC5 allowing for them to pretty much be like machine gun lasers
  
• Beam lasers would stay as is pretty much with maybe shorter durations to match up better with PPCs (provided the stupid duration skills are removed).

Now, if PPCs were made to mimic lasers, I would honestly prefer to see them also follow the typical range rules as well (HPPCs would have longer range than standard PPCs which themselves have longer range than LPPCs), this helps differentiate the PPC family a bit though SN-PPCs and ERPPCs become a bit awkward.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 October 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I still favor a sub 0.5 second "burn" for PPCs. With 0.4 of it being 50% of the damage and 50% being limp sum at the end of the burn. This differentiates it, limits it's ability for snap shots and poptarting without a bit more exposure but still gives it good precision.

I'm not a fav of an impact area to spread damage - that's just arbitrary damage spread. Missiles do that and it's fine because they have other perks.

[Nightbird]

I can see the aesthetic appeal of a beam PPC, but now you have to balance it against 8 damage 12 heat IS-ERLL and 10 damage 12 heat C-ERLL. If C-ERPPCs have short burn times and better heat efficiency, how do you make them balanced relatively against these hotter weapons?

Brainstorming to myself:
IS-ERPPC would have shortest duration and short cooldown because at 10dmg/15heat, is terrible.
C-ERPPC would have short duration and long cooldown, because at 15dmg/15heat is better than C-ERLL.

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2017 - 02:37 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

I still favor a sub 0.5 second "burn" for PPCs. With 0.4 of it being 50% of the damage and 50% being limp sum at the end of the burn. This differentiates it, limits it's ability for snap shots and poptarting without a bit more exposure but still gives it good precision.

I'm not a fav of an impact area to spread damage - that's just arbitrary damage spread. Missiles do that and it's fine because they have other perks.

I'm cool with it having a fall-off of sorts for damage per tick, something like what MW4 had with heat. It does half the damage on hit and the other half with the duration. I would still think that the other lasers have similar mechanics.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

I can see the aesthetic appeal of a beam PPC, but now you have to balance it against 8 damage 12 heat IS-ERLL and 10 damage 12 heat C-ERLL. If ER-PPCs have short burn times and better heat efficiency, how do you make them balanced relatively against these hotter weapons?

Depends on the mechanics of which we are switching too. If they are for burst, keeping them with stupidly short recycle times is plenty because it allows you to burst a target which you wouldn't have as an option with the PPCs. It also depends on the range we are talking about.

Honestly I would prefer to get away from TT stats and use kinda custom ones like Yeonne has suggested a few times on these boards but there are probably similar ways to make these TT stats work.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 October 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Nightbird]

On lasers, having discrete 'shots' makes it clear we're following TT dmg and heat. That is the premise of this thread based on the title Also, some weapons like C-ERML with its combination of great efficiency and range would be terrible if I made it a 1dps weapon like a MG. We would need to get rid of ghost heat for lasers since you can't bank fire continuous lasers, there would be no point... unless you're all ok with shafting all energy boats ingame... for these reasons I think continuous lasers are not workable in the current game. I am OK with <increasing their duration/decreasing cooldown> to give more room for pulse lasers and PPCs. I am also OK with giving lasers a bar to make the duration the maximum continuous fire before cooldown, but you can stop shooting whenever you want.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 October 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

Honestly I would prefer to get away from TT stats and use kinda custom ones like Yeonne has suggested a few times on these boards but there are probably similar ways to make these TT stats work.

Problem with moving away from TT stats is why not have IS and Clan tech do the same things? With IS weapons better than Clan to account for the tonnage slot differences? These lore shackles keep us creative and the game interesting.

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2017 - 02:55 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I am also OK with giving lasers a bar to make the duration the maximum continuous fire before cooldown, but you can stop shooting whenever you want.

Going off of what Mischief suggested, you could actually allow for firing after that maximum but with damage rates or heat rates that steadily decrease/increase appropriately so it becomes less and less efficient to hold down the button.

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Problem with moving away from TT stats is why not have IS and Clan tech do the same things? With IS weapons better than Clan to account for the tonnage slot differences? These lore shackles keep us creative and the game interesting.

Sometimes those same shackles force you to be tied to certain mechanics that may not actually be conducive creativity. Don't get me wrong, I'm somewhat of a believer of the idea that rules can actually create room for creativity (ghost heat is one of those types of rules), however that depends entirely on the rules. The TT construction rules are a good example of such rules as a lot of these fly in the face of goals for an FPS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 October 2017 - 03:01 PM.

[Nightbird]

I tried to balance the 'beam' ppc against lasers, trade-offs in notes column. Honestly, the ERPPC done this way might still be a clear upgrade over their ERLL counterparts

Easier to read doc if you can open it: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2017 - 06:21 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Nightbird, on 26 October 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

I tried to balance the 'beam' ppc against lasers, trade-offs in notes column. Honestly, the ERPPC done this way might still be a clear upgrade over their ERLL counterparts

Easier to read doc if you can open it: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

"PPC duration"

[Nightbird]

At least someone thinks they're bad, that's good. Hitscan ultra long range weapons are in general OP though as anyone who knows about overlapping fields of fire will know.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 27 October 2017 - 06:19 AM, said:

At least someone thinks they're bad, that's good. Hitscan ultra long range weapons are in general OP though as anyone who knows about overlapping fields of fire will know.

That's not necessarily true, remember before DHS, Gauss ruled the day, hell even after DHS Gauss ruled the day for long range engagements.

[Nightbird]

Well, 2 CERPPCs w/ 12 DHS is heat neutral. 2 Gauss is heat neutral. Both 24 tons. PPCs have infinite ammo, Gauss has no ammo. Gauss is PPFLD, but PPCs have hitscan and low burn time. They are best in different situations, but honestly these PPCs feel 'better'

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 27 October 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

Well, 2 CERPPCs w/ 12 DHS is heat neutral. 2 Gauss is heat neutral. Both 24 tons. PPCs have infinite ammo, Gauss has no ammo. Gauss is PPFLD, but PPCs have hitscan and low burn time. They are best in different situations, but honestly these PPCs feel 'better'

Add charge up and they become harder to wield.