259 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Agreed, I'll add charge time and take it out of cooldown for PPCs the next time I edit the first post (has to be from home). I'll keep charge time short, .5s likely, but make it autofire when fully charged (can't hold charge at all) because you can't safely hold superhot plasma.


Thanks for all the discussion with PPCs all, I think with these game play mechanics they can be balanced and different from lasers. For those who always believed PPCs are energy autocannons, sorry, these are particle projector cannons with exit velocity of 1/3 the speed of light.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightbird, on 27 October 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

For those who always believed PPCs are energy autocannons, sorry, these are particle projector cannons with exit velocity of 1/3 the speed of light.

Plasma weapons can cure that itch anyway, well for the IS at least.

[Y E O N N E]

Nightbird, on 27 October 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Agreed, I'll add charge time and take it out of cooldown for PPCs the next time I edit the first post (has to be from home). I'll keep charge time short, .5s likely, but make it autofire when fully charged (can't hold charge at all) because you can't safely hold superhot plasma.


Thanks for all the discussion with PPCs all, I think with these game play mechanics they can be balanced and different from lasers. For those who always believed PPCs are energy autocannons, sorry, these are particle projector cannons with exit velocity of 1/3 the speed of light.

That exact implementation is a balance mechanic I have posited for beam PPCs around here many times. Great minds, etc.

[Nightbird]

Took me a while but I did write up on energy weapons, re-did ghost heat in an simpler format, and changed the spreadsheet to use formulas (if you don't like my values, you only need to tweak the values in cyan and all other values update automatically).

[Nightbird]

Any comments on the laser physics portion?

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 03 November 2017 - 05:16 AM, said:

Any comments on the laser physics portion?

Going to be honest. I'm so down on the games recent direction I wasn't going to read it. I have 0 hope that PGI would implement anything that well balanced.

However as the rest of the stuff has been so good I read it anyway and am glad that I did.

You put more effort into the 'lore' part of it than FASA ever did. The 32pt max just for lasers...... yeah. Honestly it messes up my 9 MPL builds but not by a ton, even splitting it 4/5 I'll get 3 'ghost heat' on the '5' option... or I can go 4/4/1, or whatever. Given that even 4% heat gen perks wash that out anyway it's not bad.

Using energy draw for laser damage is a solid approach and addresses a lot of issues. It also starts capping alphas out in the 60-64 range, which is a good idea. The more I think about it the more I like it.

I just wish we could get something like that in game.

[Nightbird]

32 most definitely a minimum value (2xC-HLL), can easily be changed upwards unlike the current system which ummm... is a bit complicated.

[Nightbird]

Last bump this week, will add missiles next time.

[Nightbird]

Bump for more comments on proposed balancing of IS/Clan tech and explanations.

On missiles, thinking of Artemis effect on SRMs right now. I don't like current spread improvement mechanic, it makes no sense for dumbfire missiles to not shoot out with optimal spread. Instead, I would propose to deliver the 35% Artemis accuracy boost via SALH effect, semi active laser-guided homing missiles. When fired, as long as the fire button is held down missiles will follow arm or torso crosshair. As soon as the button is let go, or beam gets blocked by closer object, guidance stops and cannot be re-established. This prevents curving missiles around buildings but allows you to accurately hit moving targets.

[Nightbird]

Some sample balance points:

It takes 6 tons of IS-ERML to match the alpha of 4 tons of C-ERML, but 9 tons of C-ERML to match the DPS of 6 tons of IS-ERML.

It takes 20 tons of IS-ERLL to match the alpha of 12 tons of C-ERLL, but 30 tons of C-ERLL to match the DPS of 20 tons of IS-ERLL.

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 06 November 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

Bump for more comments on proposed balancing of IS/Clan tech and explanations.

On missiles, thinking of Artemis effect on SRMs right now. I don't like current spread improvement mechanic, it makes no sense for dumbfire missiles to not shoot out with optimal spread. Instead, I would propose to deliver the 35% Artemis accuracy boost via SALH effect, semi active laser-guided homing missiles. When fired, as long as the fire button is held down missiles will follow arm or torso crosshair. As soon as the button is let go, or beam gets blocked by closer object, guidance stops and cannot be re-established. This prevents curving missiles around buildings but allows you to accurately hit moving targets.

I'm a big fan of balance changes but keep in mind that extra complexity is not always a good thing. I like the concept but I can see it turning into a lot to try and juggle; it would strongly motivate me to just boat one weapon type. Not sure that's good.

Nightbird, on 06 November 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Some sample balance points:

It takes 6 tons of IS-ERML to match the alpha of 4 tons of C-ERML, but 9 tons of C-ERML to match the DPS of 6 tons of IS-ERML.

It takes 20 tons of IS-ERLL to match the alpha of 12 tons of C-ERLL, but 30 tons of C-ERLL to match the DPS of 20 tons of IS-ERLL.

Less about DPS and more about damage/tic.

[Nightbird]

I agree with the complexity part.

My trouble is making use of the two aspects of Artemis: The infrared laser designator and tight-beam microwave transmitter. Basically the Artemis system is communicating with the missiles after they're fired, and the laser designation plays a part.

With SRMs, therefore it makes 0 sense for SRM+Artemis to be dumb fire weapons. To me, it screams that the pilot is able to use the infrared laser to steer to missiles mid flight, greatly improving the chances of hitting a target.

With LRMs, we allow plain LRMs to target lock, so there is already communication with missiles. From that point of view, it doesn't make sense that you can only re-acquire locks with Artemis. Improving spread when within line of sight works, but conflicts with Tag, so I was thinking of giving LRM+Artemis a secondary firing feature: when there is no lock, you can redirect the missiles impact point with your infrared laser. Unlike SRMs, the LRMs will not follow the beam but rather fly to impact the endpoint. Basically, you can direct missiles to a moving target under ECM without a lock, and also fire missiles over a hill, briefly designate a stationary target, and the missiles will charge their impact point accordingly. Other than the limitation that the designated point cannot be closer to the pilot than the missiles due to limited turning radius, there are two ways to connect with your target greatly increasing your accuracy. It also removes the silly redundancy with tag.

Edited by Nightbird, 06 November 2017 - 05:08 PM.

[Nightbird]

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

Less about DPS and more about damage/tic.

Currently clan weapons have more damage/tick, more DPS/ton, more alpha, and better heat efficiency. At least with the suggested changes, IS with have equal or better damage/tick and more DPS/ton, i.e. right direction magnitude may be wrong

[Y E O N N E]

The heat-gen rate on IS lasers is wicked high, but the dissipation is still going to be worse than a Clan boat with roughly a third more DHS.

Like, assuming engine sinks are still TruDubs:

The typical 19x isDHS gives you a dissipation of 3.71 before Cool Run, 4.081 after.

The typical 24x cDHS gives you 4.45 before, 4.895 after.

So, what I am trying to say is that the extra DPS on the IS laser isn't going to be terribly useful. Sure, you'll get two volleys off with isERLL in the time it takes a Clan 'Mech to fire one, but then you are easy to push on. You can't keep it up. That forces you to trade with more spaced-out volleys, negating that DPS advantage. The longer the match goes, the harder it stacks in favor of the Clan version. Especially with 12 heat. And on something like a Supernova, which gets 30? While the IS boat gets barely any more at 20 or 21?

Yeah, that needs some adjusting.

Also worth pointing out that lore value of range for the isERLL is 570 m while the cERLL is 750 m.
cERML is 450 m, isERML is 360.
cERSL is 180 m, isERSL is 150.

cLPL is 660 m, isLPL is 350.
cMPL is 360 m, isMPL is 180.
cSPL is 180 m, isSPL is 90.

Small/Heavy Small are 90 m.

TL;DR: You should go check Sarna to correct your stats.

[Nightbird]

I did give the IS more heat capacity too, and one benefit of high DPS weapons is that you don't need to carry as many weapons, allowing you to get bigger engines and more HS. This will close the gap compared to today, because remember the alternate you're getting is less of everything. I mean, compare the DPS/ton of current stuff.

Not as worried about range right now, but I expect ER PPC will be the premier IS long range weapon of choice. Will update later.

[Y E O N N E]

Again, though, heat capacity is only good for the immediate output of damage. After that, you hide. We are talking about 72 heat from firing three ERLL twice and getting only 48 damage out of the trade, and then having the same deficiency they currently suffer with regard to sustained output. There is no staying power, there, and it isn't like ERPPCs look that much more attractive at 10 over 15.

[Nightbird]

Having better immediate output of damage with better DPS/ton is a strength you can pilot around. Basically, I see Clans having an advantage on the initial alpha, the IS has an advantage for the next few exchanges, then Clans have better sustain when both sides are heat capped. With energy draw, I decrease the alpha advantage tremendously by giving more time to twist. Stats may be rough, but the balance should be much better than today.

For example, laser gauss vomit is limited to 62 damage on both sides, with a more complex firing sequence needed for Clans to get around it and IS doesn't need to charge gauss. I can also give the IS more dps and beam intensity if necessary.

Edited by Nightbird, 07 November 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[Nightbird]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 November 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

Again, though, heat capacity is only good for the immediate output of damage. After that, you hide. We are talking about 72 heat from firing three ERLL twice and getting only 48 damage out of the trade, and then having the same deficiency they currently suffer with regard to sustained output. There is no staying power, there, and it isn't like ERPPCs look that much more attractive at 10 over 15.

Just got home, so here is a more nuanced example: 4 IS-ERLL versus 6 C-ERLL, assuming the C-ERLL is fired in 2 groups 0.5s apart to avoid GH.

After..
1.00 seconds, IS: 32 damage, Clan 27 damage (IS winning with intensity)
1.87 seconds. IS: 32 damage, Clan 54 damage (Clan winning with alpha size)
2.17 seconds, IS: 48 damage, Clan 60 damage (Clan finishes first alpha, IS already burning second alpha)
2.78 seconds, IS: 64 damage, Clan 60 damage (IS winning with DPS)
4.17 seconds, IS: 84 damage, Clan 60 damage (IS winning with DPS, half way through third alpha, Clan ready for second alpha)

Keep in mind that Clan weapons is 24 tons and IS 20tons, so just with cooldown and duration IS ERLL are putting up a great fight against Clans. Winning in fact except for a brief moment in the beginning. Heat cap will end with the Clans on top, but is this not better than our current system?

[Y E O N N E]

Nightbird, on 07 November 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Just got home, so here is a more nuanced example: 4 IS-ERLL versus 6 C-ERLL, assuming the C-ERLL is fired in 2 groups 0.5s apart to avoid GH.

After..
1.00 seconds, IS: 32 damage, Clan 27 damage (IS winning with intensity)
1.87 seconds. IS: 32 damage, Clan 54 damage (Clan winning with alpha size)
2.17 seconds, IS: 48 damage, Clan 60 damage (Clan finishes first alpha, IS already burning second alpha)
2.78 seconds, IS: 64 damage, Clan 60 damage (IS winning with DPS)
4.17 seconds, IS: 84 damage, Clan 60 damage (IS winning with DPS, half way through third alpha, Clan ready for second alpha)

Keep in mind that Clan weapons is 24 tons and IS 20tons, so just with cooldown and duration IS ERLL are putting up a great fight against Clans. Winning in fact except for a brief moment in the beginning. Heat cap will end with the Clans on top, but is this not better than our current system?

The heat. You have to look at the heat. Firing four isERLL on cool-down either shuts the 'Mech down or barely avoids it on a neutral map.

Let's take a BLR with 4x ERLL vs. a MAD-IIC with 5x cERLL.

BLR
4x ERLL (1.00 + 0.78)
10 + 11 DHS
Dissipation is 2.0 + (11 * 0.19) == 4.09 h/s
Heat Cap = 50 + (11 * 1.5) + (85/4) == 87.75

MAD-IIC
5x cERLL (1.67 + 0.5 + 2.50)
10 + 19 DHS
Dissipation is 2.0 + (19 * 0.175) == 5.325
Heat Cap = 50 + (19*1.5) = 78.5

1.00 seconds: IS 32 damage/43.91 heat; Clan 23.94 damage/22.89 heat
1.78 seconds: IS 32 damage/40.72 heat; Clan 41.01 damage/30.55 heat
2.17 seconds: IS 44.48 damage/57.84 heat; Clan 50 damage/48.44 heat
2.78 seconds: IS 64 damage/84.6 heat, Clan 50 damage/45.19 heat

At this point, it's going to take roughly 11 seconds before the IS 'Mech can fire the full volley again. It's only going to be another roughly two seconds before that Clan 'Mech can fire again. The IS may have a 14 point damage lead, but that's about to convert into a 36 point lead for the Clan 'Mech and it's not going to flip back. If we space our shots on the IS 'Mech, we delay the conversion to a Clan lead, but we can't stop it. Now add in range deficit to sap damage away when the two 'Mechs trade above optimum range.

[Y E O N N E]

Is it better than what we have now? Honestly hard to say. The biggest problem we have now is that isERLL can't trade at the same ranges that cERLL can. The second problem is that the up-time on an IS ERLL boat is lower; the sustained output is currently a whole point less. I don't see how your version addresses either drawback.

Like I said earlier, the dissipation bonus on the isDHS isn't high enough to mean anything.