47 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

IS haven't been using 3 LPL for a long time, it's not worth the weight and XL risk for 3 points of damage. And the heat generated from combining it with ERML stops you from using its shorter cool-down anyway.

The LL is a dramatically more efficient weapon.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dfa1fa909ee39fc
that was is vomit and it was used extensively by alot of ppl since civil war and prior to in modified form.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 October 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[El Bandito]

davoodoo, on 22 October 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

Is vomit was more reliant on 3 lpl, while clan vomit had 6 mediums or pulses as staple.

You need to get up to date with current meta. IS LPLs are largely discarded in favor of LL/ERLL.

[davoodoo]

El Bandito, on 22 October 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

You need to get up to date with current meta. IS LPLs are largely discarded in favor of LL/ERLL.

Regardless of whose right.

Neither lpl nor llas were nerfed.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 22 October 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

Regardless of whose right.

Neither lpl nor llas were nerfed.

But neither of them alone can compensate for the loss of damage due the ERML/ML nerfs, especially considering the builds were already underperforming the Clan versions before said nerf.

Also, your BLR-1G build is only not-hot because it has quirks. I can drop to just two LPL and run six ERML and get 22 DHS in on a BLR-3M, but even then I'd rather run 3x LL and 5x ERML with 21 DHS.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 October 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

But neither of them alone can compensate for the loss of damage due the ERML/ML nerfs, especially considering the builds were already underperforming the Clan versions before said nerf.

Also, your BLR-1G build is only not-hot because it has quirks. I can drop to just two LPL and run six ERML and get 22 DHS in on a BLR-3M, but even then I'd rather run 3x LL and 5x ERML with 21 DHS.

35% cooling efficiency and 5% medium heat...yes thats the extent of heat quirks...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a19b04510b3340
36% and this one doesnt have quirks...

Both were cool as breeze.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 October 2017 - 09:36 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 22 October 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

35% cooling efficiency and 5% medium heat...yes thats the extent of heat quirks...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a19b04510b3340
36% and this one doesnt have quirks...

Both were cool as breeze.

That's not the build it competes with.

Below 400 meters, this is.

Everywhere else, this is.

41% on both, and there is room to go higher if you want. Compared to either, the BLR is hot as hell for its output.

There's also this, and we haven't even touched on the existence of the MC II, yet.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 October 2017 - 09:46 AM.

[davoodoo]

Wanna adress how 36% efficiency on clans is cool as breeze without quirks but 35% on is side is cool only because you shove off 0.2hps due to quirk bringing cooling efficiency to 36%?

Edited by davoodoo, 22 October 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[FupDup]

Trissila, on 22 October 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

I really don't understand a desire to buff the velocity on ACs. If you have trouble landing shots inside the effective range of ACs with the current velocities, a buff is not going to help you.

It could've been used to differentiate ACs from UACs so that the former have a reason to exist, but PGI couldn't resist the urge to keep velocity normalized between AC sizes.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 22 October 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Wanna adress how 36% efficiency on clans is cool as breeze without quirks but 35% on is side is cool only because you shove off 0.2hps due to quirk??

Easy:

What's the sustained DPS number look like between the two? 4.29 on a Battlemaster against 6.62/5.06/5.82 on the MAD-IIC. Even your 36% build was 5.89.

Your heat bar not filling up as much does not mean you are actually running colder for the damage you deal.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 October 2017 - 09:54 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

I believe we getting a little off track, my fellow friends.

But what about we reduce the GH heat cap for (ER)LL and LPL down to 2, but to compensate for the nerf. Like a 0.5 reduced burn time, and a 10% range boost for LPL.

Personally I see these as good enough compensation for the two weapon if the GH cap drop to two especially for the LPL.

[Y E O N N E]

Battlemaster56, on 22 October 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

I believe we getting a little off track, my fellow friends.

But what about we reduce the GH heat cap for (ER)LL and LPL down to 2, but to compensate for the nerf. Like a 0.5 reduced burn time, and a 10% range boost for LPL.

Personally I see these as good enough compensation for the two weapon if the GH cap drop to two especially for the LPL.

No.

(Srs face on, fug jokes. No jokes allowed).

[Trissila]

El Bandito, on 22 October 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

No, it is not. All ballistics are not as good as las-vomit. Damage up front triumphs over sustain in any decent level of play, thanks to peekaboo meta.

This is the core of the issue. Lasers are not OP per-se, it's just that they are the best at fulfilling the only role that these maps and gametype conditions support: careful peeking with high burst damage. Ballistics undeniably have greater DPS, but DPS does not matter when targets are not available for you to sustain fire at. The maps are designed, largely, with each side having a built-up area and then a vast no man's land in between with basically nothing in the way of meaningful cover. There are no good, shielded flanking approaches that aren't so far out of the way as to be unusable. In an environment like this, poking is the most effective playstyle, and lasers are the ultimate poking weapon.

[Y E O N N E]

Trissila, on 22 October 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

This is the core of the issue. Lasers are not OP per-se, it's just that they are the best at fulfilling the only role that these maps and gametype conditions support: careful peeking with high burst damage. Ballistics undeniably have greater DPS, but DPS does not matter when targets are not available for you to sustain fire at. The maps are designed, largely, with each side having a built-up area and then a vast no man's land in between with basically nothing in the way of meaningful cover. There are no good, shielded flanking approaches that aren't so far out of the way as to be unusable. In an environment like this, poking is the most effective playstyle, and lasers are the ultimate poking weapon.

And then the enemy decides it is time to move up, does so, and you roll out around the corner with your ballistic 'Mech and shut them down.

Also, UAC/2 boats have enough burst DPS and enough projectile velocity to compete directly with lasers at long range.

[Tarl Cabot]

MischiefSC, on 22 October 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

I recommend that all Clan mechs and tech be reverted to tabletop stats -

Which is to say 1/2 armor they currently have and all weapons have a flat 10 second cooldown.

But then MPBT and the initial MWO (IS weapons) setup was based more around the Solaris VII rule set, where the weapon delays (cooldowns) were done in 2.5sec intervals. So a medium laser had a 2 round delay or 2.5*2=5sec delay/cooldown.

Of course the boardgames did not have durations for energy weapons, but if PGI had kept the game closer to those cooldown timers the Clan weapons would/could have had lower delays compared to IS weapons, which then could be countered on duration length. And with the Solaris VII heat scale, heatsinks had LESS an effect on the max heat cap beyond the 120 heatscale (30 TT* 4, and weapon heat *4 also) since heatsinks (also dispensed their normal rate, not 4x) only added a 1/4 of their capacity to the SVII HeatScale when compared to the BT/TT HS capacity.

Will say though that TT/SolarisVII rules/setup should be used as a guideline when transitioning it to a FPS PC game. One of the outliers is how PGI has handled the engine setup, especially the isXL by using only ONE part of the ruleset while leaving all the rest on the sidelines.

[Baba Yogi]

nehebkau, on 22 October 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

The simpleness of the AC / lazor question comes down to : when given the question, do I spend 8 tons to get 5 damage or 1 ton -- the answer is quite simple.

I've been seeing this kind of thought process more and more lately. I dont know if its intentional or not but some people choose to ignore the fact that you'd ran out of crit space far earlier if you try to match the same level of heat efficiency with energy weaponry that ballistics already has. Even by medium laser- ac5 comparison a medium laser user has to use at least 25 crit slots if you want to compare weights(for 9 tons you have 8dhs+1medlaser) . By same logic if you mount 2 such weapons then you are out of space for total of 10 damage. Thats why balancing builds that use both generally perform best (gauss vomit, gauss/ppc, ballistic/missile brawlers etc u get the picture). You wont need as much heatsinks(thus less crits used) and the ballistics utilize the excess weight that you'll have.

Heatsinks are far less effective here than their TT counterparts. That is why having a low heat weapon is more important if you want to keep firing. Laserboats always have to go in cooldown periods, while ballistics can fire all day. Certain Uacs and AC20s were the only exception and if you look back in game's history you'll understand why they were nerfed (old ac40 jagers and that was before clan tech iirc, and ofc the infamous kdk-3). Heat is how they nerf these things because that takes away the ability to combine these weapons with secondary low tonnage weapons like medlasers etc.

My hope is some of you can understand laser and ballistics stand at 2 ends of the same spectrum. One deals its damage in a burst, other does it continously and deals more at the end. Which is what everyone wants in this game, that is = variety.

Edited by Lordhammer, 22 October 2017 - 11:31 AM.

[davoodoo]

Lordhammer, on 22 October 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

I've been seeing this kind of thought process more and more lately. I dont know if its intentional or not but some people choose to ignore the fact that you'd ran out of crit space far earlier if you try to match the same level of heat efficiency with energy weaponry that ballistics already has. Even by medium laser- ac5 comparison a medium laser user has to use at least 25 crit slots if you want to compare weights(for 9 tons you have 8dhs+1medlaser) . By same logic if you mount 2 such weapons then you are out of space for total of 10 damage. Thats why balancing builds that use both generally perform best (gauss vomit, gauss/ppc, ballistic/missile brawlers etc u get the picture). You wont need as much heatsinks(thus less crits used) and the ballistics utilize the excess weight that you'll have.

Heatsinks are far less effective here than their TT counterparts. That is why having a low heat weapon is more important if you want to keep firing. Laserboats always have to go in cooldown periods, while ballistics can fire all day. Certain Uacs and AC20s were the only exception and if you look back in game's history you'll understand why they were nerfed (old ac40 jagers and that was before clan tech iirc, and ofc the infamous kdk-3). Heat is how they nerf these things because that takes away the ability to combine these weapons with secondary low tonnage weapons like medlasers etc.

My hope is some of you can understand laser and ballistics stand at 2 ends of the same spectrum. One deals its damage in a burst, other does it continously and deals more at the end. Which is what everyone wants in this game, that is = variety.

That is simply effect of deviating from tt values.

ppc had 10damage/10heat 7tons/3crits 6/12/18 range
ac5 had 5 damage/1heat 8tons/4crits 6/12/18 range

Now to cool off ppc you needed to spend 10 tons and 10 crits on shs bringing total weight up to 17 tons and 13 slots at the same time ac5 only required 1 shs to completely cool off bringing weight up to 9 tons and 5 crits + ammo

also you need to remember that you had always 10 shs built in engine so while you could cool off 10 damage from ppc for free you could cool off 50 damage from ac5. Dhs kinda broke this though to the point where ballistics were just crit seekers for a long time.

But thats just example of 2 similiar weapons
6 medlas locust wouldnt be able to overheat from firing in tt after upgrade to dhs, here its a very hot mech.

But now boomjagers, current day splat of lets say scorch does far greater damage at those ranges, nobody batches an eye.
Kdk3 with 80 damage sure cool, but it wasnt problem when direwolf ran that build which still was a downgrade from what direwolf should be able to run in terms of firepower.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 October 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

Also, UAC/2 boats have enough burst DPS and enough projectile velocity to compete directly with lasers at long range.

At long range only, and situationally, due to jam mechanic. At mid range, las-vomit still triumphs over UAC2 boating.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 22 October 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

At long range only, and situationally, due to jam mechanic. At mid range, las-vomit still triumphs over UAC2 boating.

Yup, exactly why I phrased it the way I did.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

And then the enemy decides it is time to move up, does so, and you roll out around the corner with your ballistic 'Mech and shut them down.

Also, UAC/2 boats have enough burst DPS and enough projectile velocity to compete directly with lasers at long range.

Dat 6 x uac2 Night Gyr. For the tonnage at the heat the ability to do 18 DPS for days and short bursts of 36 DPS in a 75 ton mech is one of those monstrous advantages you rarely see - because laservomit is still that much better.

[OrmsbyGore]

davoodoo, on 22 October 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

That is simply effect of deviating from tt values.

ppc had 10damage/10heat 7tons/3crits 6/12/18 range
ac5 had 5 damage/1heat 8tons/4crits 6/12/18 range

Now to cool off ppc you needed to spend 10 tons and 10 crits on shs bringing total weight up to 17 tons and 13 slots at the same time ac5 only required 1 shs to completely cool off bringing weight up to 9 tons and 5 crits + ammo

also you need to remember that you had always 10 shs built in engine so while you could cool off 10 damage from ppc for free you could cool off 50 damage from ac5. Dhs kinda broke this though to the point where ballistics were just crit seekers for a long time.

But thats just example of 2 similiar weapons
6 medlas locust wouldnt be able to overheat from firing in tt after upgrade to dhs, here its a very hot mech.

But now boomjagers, current day splat of lets say scorch does far greater damage at those ranges, nobody batches an eye.
Kdk3 with 80 damage sure cool, but it wasnt problem when direwolf ran that build which still was a downgrade from what direwolf should be able to run in terms of firepower.

Very good points regarding conversion from TT to online; I think part of the reason the DW wasn't as lethal was hardpoint location