181 replies to this topic

[Beaching Betty]

Light mech not tripping down when it crash onto a heavier mech..

[JediPanther]

the pay rewards are the most unrealistic thing. I've spent more on uavs than what you get for winning the objective vip mode.

[Shifty McSwift]

Developing functional intergalactic space travel and then going out of your way to waste immense resources to build giant robots to play Robot Wars (the tv show) on a planetary scale, rather than say, I don't know, using their ships weapons?

I mean what would actually make MORE sense is if these fights WERE ACTUALLY the futuristic equivalent of gladiators and Robot Wars, a reality game show or super futuristic sport that could have some bearing on politics. What we have is actually pretty ridiculous.

That and rear view mirrors, I mean c'mon.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 24 October 2017 - 07:12 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Shifty McSwift, on 24 October 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Developing functional intergalactic space travel and then going out of your way to waste immense resources to build giant robots to play Robot Wars (the tv show) on a planetary scale, rather than say, I don't know, using their ships weapons?

The only reason I don't think of this more is because warships are so absent from the lore.

[Snowbluff]

Athom83, on 24 October 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

Damascus Steel as well. Some industries today can come somewhat close to the results (some are claiming they did replicate it, yet are showing no proof), but the ancient method is still lost on us today. Starlite also just became lost to us when the chemist (who never shared his formula) died a few years ago.

Point of order, if he didn't write everything he down, I don't think he qualifies as a scientist. Even if he didn't copy it for distribution, his technique would still need to be recorded during refinement and then for regular use.

Edited by Snowbluff, 24 October 2017 - 08:26 PM.

[Bombast]

Shifty McSwift, on 24 October 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

...rather than say, I don't know, using their ships weapons?

They did that. Twice.

It did not end well for anyone.

[Shifty McSwift]

Bombast, on 24 October 2017 - 08:35 PM, said:

They did that. Twice.

It did not end well for anyone.

Ah, OK, so then giant robot wars make total sense now with that knowledge, thanks guy /s

[Johnny Z]

The over crowded mechbay/mechlab. Would be so nice if MechWarrior Online had something like MW 2, or the new MW 5 and Battletech games. So much better.

MechWarrior Online is an 8/10 game now mostly because of the weak competition. Should be higher, like a 9 or 10/10.

[Commodore Perspicuous]

Ammo storage and reload definitely does it for me... Not even just how do they reload, but how do they even carry that much ammo (specifically missiles) in the first place?

As for the "why is war only focused on mechs and forgets about airpower," that's definitely a thing, but if I remember enough from the books, mechs do get shredded on the regular by airpower. However, I justify it with two thoughts: airpower can't hold territory, either now or in the future. Need ground forces for that. So, then, the second justification is with the feudal/aristocratic culture of BT (once you get on board with ALL the cultures operating the same way). Mechwarriors are the cultural and military elite, so social forces could work to keep them at the focus, thus keeping mechs at the focus, of military power. While military development and conflict tend do be primary drivers of technological progress, there are still plenty of real life examples of cultures preventing adaptation. At least, that's my excuse for not questioning my big, stompy robots.

[jjm1]

Jman5, on 24 October 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

To me the most unrealistic thing in Battletech is the whole concept of lost-tech. The idea that you could just lose most of the documentation for how your modern society operates is a fantasy. Even in the event of a near total collapse of your society, data is so easily stored, copied, and disseminated that I just can't see it. On top of that you have armies of specialists spread all over the Inner Sphere who spend every day working and understanding this stuff.

All it takes is one guy on one planet with 1 thumbdrive and everything reverts back.

Wasn't comstar the explanation for that.

They could listen in on interstellar communication and thus could ensure the technology of the houses didn't advance. Houses are basically given the Iran/NK treatment because that's sort of what they are if you think about it.

[YueFei]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 24 October 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

My point is that the details of how to make it should have been disseminated widely enough to not have been lost even back then.

The irony of a computer based society is that it is possible to lose secret, highly technical information. Details on industrial/military trade secrets are often kept a secret as possible. US stealth technology was a prime example of a tech whose details have remained a close secret. Still highly unlikely to be totally lost...but it doesn't make my brain hurt to say a new dark age (technologically) occurred and set things back a ton. But...everyone is entitled to their own thoughts on the matter and it is highly, highly unlikely

Yep. That's what happened with FOGBANK. We had to reverse engineer it to figure out how to make it again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOGBANK

[StealthdragonB]

Mechs not having their legs explode when another one sits on top of them. Even if a locust landed on a 100 tonner then that 100 tonner is now carrying 120+ tons and should have it’s legs immediately disintegrate due to the fact it’s now carrying 20% more than what its mean to.
Also mechs getting lighter and likely more agile upon losing weight via damage, or mechs being more agile when holding less than they should. If an IS assault with dual gauss rifle arms has both of them blown off it’s just lost 30+ tons of weight. Surely 100 tonners holding only a 70 ton load should find manoeuvring slightly easier?

[Lily from animove]

StealthdragonB, on 24 October 2017 - 10:41 PM, said:

Mechs not having their legs explode when another one sits on top of them. Even if a locust landed on a 100 tonner then that 100 tonner is now carrying 120+ tons and should have it’s legs immediately disintegrate due to the fact it’s now carrying 20% more than what its mean to.
Also mechs getting lighter and likely more agile upon losing weight via damage, or mechs being more agile when holding less than they should. If an IS assault with dual gauss rifle arms has both of them blown off it’s just lost 30+ tons of weight. Surely 100 tonners holding only a 70 ton load should find manoeuvring slightly easier?

sorry but thats not how mech legs work. with this logic every jump would make a mech break it legs as well. there is still a buffer weight to prevent overtonnage to immediately break your mech. however a 100t mech landing on you surely should have more serious consequences.

[Vellron2005]

Unrealistic things woven into the Battletech setting itself:

1) That huge walking warmachines somehow became the go-to weapons platform, as opposed to tanks and helicopters.

2) That mech armor can take so much of a beating, and don't even get me started on cockpit glass..

3) LRMs - Thousands of auto-loaded missiles stored in the legs, fired from the shoulders, and 20 missiles fired at once at a single target, dealing less damage than a single cannon slug.

4) Mech speeds - tiny mechs with small steps are faster than huge mechs with huge steps. There's a reason why in the movie Jurassic Park, the T-Rex can keep up with the jeep without an issue.. Large steps = high speed.

5) Comstar - A single galaxy wide communications operator? Really? It's a free market..

6) The Clans - Ok, so the IS bombed itself back to the stone age in the succession wars.. so we can't expect amazing tech.. But after a 300 year hiatus and 300 years of technological innovation, the best that the clans can do is only slightly upgraded versions of 300yo equipment? 300 years of tech is the difference between a Native American hand-thrown tomahawk axe, and a tomahawk cruise missile. Just unrealistic.

7) The Clan's eugenics program - Ok, so we clanners are genetically modified to carry the best traits of those that came before us. But, if you're gonna cross that moral boundary, why stop there? Why not combine the best genetic traits of man, animals, and science? Superhuman strength, eyesight, gills, 4 arms, instant regeneration, regrowing limbs, cromatopfor mimicry and all sorts of other enhancements are available.. And what did the Clans get after 300 years of genetic manipulation? Greater strength, facial tech-tattoos, and a bad attitude..

Unrealistic things in MWO:

1) Speed of lights - again, small legs are slower than big legs.

2) 7 TON targeting computers - today's advanced targeting fits on a laptop, and can put a cruise missile up a man's arse on another continent, and MWO's 7-ton targeting computers can't send 20 LRMs to the same spot more than 900 meters away.. pathetic.

3) Weapon ranges - Lasers DON'T STOP and shouldn't have a range, while LRMs 900 meter range is a joke.

4) Lock-on mechanics - realistically, there is no reason why you should ever loose lock after you've acquired it once.

5) Missile tracking - again, losing lock while the missiles are in flight is ridiculous.

6) Gauss - for a slug that travels as fast as gauss does, it should realistically either topple the mech over or leave a gaping hole straight through and keep on going. Also, the magnetic coils use a lot of energy, so gauss being as cool as it is simply unrealistic. Even a cellphone battery heats up.

7) PPC minimum range. So you wanna launch a car-sized ball of plasma at a target? But under 90 meters its.. what? A ball of cotton candy?

8) Lack of pre-drop preparations - So, I'm gonna strap myself into a multi-million cbill warmachine, and go kill stuff to wherever.. It's not like I wanna know exactly what planet I'm dropping on, what are the atmospheric conditions, what cammo to use, will not use any satellite scans to scout enemy positions, will not match my loadouts to the terrain.. Nah, don't need all that.. Let's just rush in like a headless chicken..

9) Game modes - Conquest, domination and assault and totally arcade game modes that have no base in realism whatsoever. Escort was a good idea, but so poorly executed that again, completely unrealistic. Tied into all the stuff from point 8), it makes the game modes feel more like SuperMario than MechWarrior..

10) Lack of Repair and Rearm - Ammo is free, armor and body parts regrow spontaneously, and logistic support is non-existant. Also, any weapon can be acquired instantly, and brought to the front lines in seconds.

11) Fighting over dots - So we are attacking what no-name, nobody-cares planet in the hopes of doing... what? Never you mind, just click "fight now".

12) "The War" - so, we are participating in a galaxy-wide interstellar conflict that is fought exclusively between huge robotic war machines - no civilians, infantry, or any other vehicle or being will ever be injured or threatened.

13) Lack of war damage - So apparently, you can shoot a building as much as you like. You won't kill anyone inside, nor will the building collapse. You can fly a 90 Ton Battlemech on top of a 4 story building, and the roof won't collapse. But mind the WIFI antenna.

14) Factions - Pick your poison! Doesn't matter which one you pick, they all fight on the same front, and under the same leadership (none to speak of). Just make sure it's either IS or CLAN, cose' they are at war.. also.. if you are a merc, just go for the faction with highest payout.. no other difference whatsoever.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Well plenty of people have posted the various issues based on technology and such, but for me the big issues with unreality in BT are some of the plots from the stories.

Perfect example is Victor Steiner-Davion, after discovering that his sister murdered their mother and is plotting against him, comes up with a plan of action that leaves her in charge of half of the Federated Commonwealth. I mean I understand that he didn't have a smoking gun to have her arrested and tried, but he couldn't come up with some way to keep her from power? Why not send her to the periphery on an 'ambassadorial' assignment, or put her in charge of an orphanage or something. Nope, lets leave her in power on Tharkad, so she can usurp half his nation from him. I mean I know this was all done to set up for the Fedcom civil war, but damn that's a dumb move.

So many other examples, such as Takashi Kurita ignoring the entire 4th Succession War except for his personnel vendetta against Wolf's Dragoons, despite considering Hanse Davion his greatest rival for years and the whole Draconis March stripped of troops for use against Liao. Comstar and all the other great houses just letting the Word of Blake keep Terra after their little sneak attack, again because 'reasons' and they can keep an eye on them (which worked so well it led to the Jihad.) Thomas Marik returning from the dead to claim the Captain Generalship of the Free Worlds League, but no one bothering to do a simple blood check against other family members to verify his identity (especially as he literally was a double put in place of the real Thomas Marik, and Isis Marik was around to match DNA with.) The Crusader factions of the Clans electing a Warden Khan to the post of Ilkhan (Ulric Kerensky), as putting your opponents in power was somehow a victory against the Wardens.

Honestly, plot devices in a lot of the stories are far more unrealistic than issues with BT tech vs real tech.

[jss78]

Interesting discussion. Three things:

- Heavy electronics. Like in so many other late-70's/early-80's projections of the future, miniturization of electronics caught BT by surprise. So while we didn't get flying cars or moon bases, computers no longer weigh tons.

- Scale / short weapon ranges. I think this is dictated by tabletop gaming practicalities. You want to have the 'mechs able to move a few hexes a turn, and quickly manouvre relative to one another. So hexes need to be small. This is fine, but with realistic weapon ranges the gaming boards would be the size of your house. The board needs to fit on a table, so the weapon ranges had to be scaled down.

- Mechs as combat units. I'm not at all compelled that this would ever happen. It makes no sense to lift a combat unit upright like that: it maximises the surface area that needs to armoured and there are lots of vulnerable joints. If armour technology were good enough to make the 'mech strong, they could also make an optimally shaped tank completely impregnable. The benefit of bi/quadpedal locomotion is great mobility in rough terrain. I could see it used something like agromech applications (think alpine timber work). Combat units -- hell no.

[Karl Streiger]

reading through the "Children of Death Earth" Blog I found it interesting that a projectile could have to much power.
it simple moves through the target without dealing much damage. For a Mech that means over-penetrating projectiles need to hit the component exactly.

People tend to ignore the psychologic effect of a Mech and to overrate the size.
granted on the open and with very flat terrain the size might be an issue - but when you leave your house you might see several hills and vales where a 12-13m Atlas or Banshee could be hidden.

and then its again range and survival rate - look the tank can go hull down and only shows a fraction of his turret - but a hit there and the shot might kill or disable the tank.

a mech can expose only an arm - that get shot and hey your mech still works - because there is another arm

so, in other words, the Mech is a more mobile weapon platform with lots of redundancy

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 October 2017 - 03:22 AM.

[Paigan]

Karl Streiger, on 25 October 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

reading through the "Children of Death Earth" Blog I found it interesting that a projectile could have to much power.
it simple moves through the target without dealing much damage. For a Mech that means over-penetrating projectiles need to hit the component exactly.

People tend to ignore the psychologic effect of a Mech and to overrate the size.
granted on the open and with very flat terrain the size might be an issue - but when you leave your house you might see several hills and vales where a 12-13m Atlas or Banshee could be hidden.

and then its again range and survival rate - look the tank can go hull down and only shows a fraction of his turret - but a hit there and the shot might kill or disable the tank.

a mech can expose only an arm - that get shot and hey your mech still works - because there is another arm

so, in other words, the Mech is a more mobile weapon platform with lots of redundancy

And with the same technology, for the price of one Mech you could build like 10 tanks (including JJ mobility) - or airbone vehicles and/or just use orbital strikes right away - that would wtfpwn the sh*t out of one Mech in 99% of situations. For the remaining 1%, as an urban intimidating unit or for underground cave assaults or something like that, Mechs might make sense.

Everything else is romantic. It has its place (that's why I'm here), but please don't try to come up with a realistic justification for romantic nonsense.

Edited by Paigan, 25 October 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Kearny-Fuchida Drive that allows for FTL travel.


Odd to have that of all things being a sticking point when talking about giant robots shooting lazorz...

Scifi nerd meets physics nerd....

Such conflict.

Edited by TWIAFU, 25 October 2017 - 03:47 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Paigan, on 25 October 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

And with the same technology, for the price of one Mech you could build like 10 tanks (including JJ mobility) - or airbone vehicles and/or just use orbital strikes right away - that would wtfpwn the sh*t out of one Mech in 99% of situations. For the remaining 1%, as an urban intimidating unit or for underground cave assaults or something like that, Mechs might make sense.

Everything else is romantic. It has its place (that's why I'm here), but please don't try to come up with a realistic justification for romantic nonsense.

10 vehicles - sure crew of what 30 to 50?
plus techs plus spare parts - sure a mech is more complex you need more time to train a MechWarrior and you need more time to train the tech crew - but at the end you need less space and mass or single Mech - when it comes to deployment.

might say that instead of a mech you could have one super heavy tank - with several compartments and two turrets that even when you kill the armor in one location and kill half the crew - the others might fight on.

ignore orbital strikes because this cut in both directions